Search found 164 matches

by Octavià
Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:42 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

It is funny that you say that. Neolithic Europe was a patchwork of language stocks, which ones were there, is uncertain. But I have already stated why I consider the existence of anything related to Semitic in Neolithic Europe not very likely. On what basis? Don't you realize yours is a circular ar...
by Octavià
Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:17 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

Going back to crab , it corresponds perfectly well with other Germanic words with the same meaning, and to Greek graphein . Why posit a more obscure etymology when this one will do? Then tell me what the hell has to do 'crab' with 'to write'. The actual English cognate of the Greek word is carve , ...
by Octavià
Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:08 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

It is funny that you say that. Neolithic Europe was a patchwork of language stocks, which ones were there, is uncertain. But I have already stated why I consider the existence of anything related to Semitic in Neolithic Europe not very likely. On what basis? Don't you realize yours is a circular ar...
by Octavià
Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:46 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

That is some very bizarre BDSM you're alluding to there. Scorpions and sex were never designed to go together. I was talking about Zodiac signs, not the actual animals, you know. I think you'll find that there have been some very good arguments against your position for the entire 11 pages of your ...
by Octavià
Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:27 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

Believe it or not, crabs and scorpions are similar! If you read Wikipedia, you'd know that scorpions are more closely related to spiders than to crabs. But admittedly, that doesn't really mean that much; it is indeed imaginable that a word shifts its meaning from 'crab' to 'scorpion' or vice versa....
by Octavià
Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:05 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

Astrology is widely considered a pseudoscience, and has nothing to say about historical linguistics. Actually, it's about biology . Believe it or not, crabs and scorpions are similar! There is not a single word in it that is not borrowed from somewhere else! I don't think so. But in order to isolat...
by Octavià
Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:44 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

'Crab' and 'scorpion' are quite different animals, too. For that matter, I can say from my own experience that the Zodiac signs Cancer and Scorpio have strong affinities, none the least in bed matters :D Well, Octavià knows the truth: Proto-Indo-European was a conlang, pieced together from various ...
by Octavià
Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:28 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

How could the Germanic words for 'crab' be cognate to Greek kárabos and Latin cārabus (which is a borrowing from Greek anyway)? Surely Grimm's law would have made the Proto-Germanic form something like * harp ? That's right, unless the word was borrowed after Grimm's Law happened. Vennemann, who us...
by Octavià
Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:22 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

Astraios wrote:Yeah, I meant the Semitic one, sorry.

And why is the link between scarabeus and κάραβος not a good one, when the one *[P.Sem. whatever it is] and crab is?
See above. 'Crab' and 'beetle' are quite different animals, unlike 'crab' and 'scorpion'.
by Octavià
Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:20 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

The word is actually *ʕaḳrab, BTW, and is isolated in Proto-Semitic. It could just as easily be a borrowing into Semitic. From where? I suppose you think the source is IE, isn't it? I can't find any good cognates outside of PIE and may be onomatopoeic in origin. I disagree. The Semitic word is an e...
by Octavià
Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:14 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

The link between Latin scarabeus 'a k. of beetle' and Greek kárabos 'crab' is IMHO a weak one. I also must warn you that Wikitionary and Wikipedia are second-hand sources. It's always preferrable to use first-hand ones :mrgreen: Why is it weak? They sound similar, and Wiktionary says the primary me...
by Octavià
Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:49 am
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

Why is the OED's etymology unteneble? Because semantics doesn't match. Sure, the meaning has changed; but it changed in a reasonable way. "Claw" is a suitable pars pro toto designation for a crab, isn't it? I suspect the meaning 'claw' was added after the Germanic word, so this would be a circular ...
by Octavià
Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:40 am
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

What about the Latin and Greek words? According to Wiktionary, they meant primarily a type of beetle. And the Greek was a loanword, probably from Macedonian. The Latin carabus is a borrowing of the Greek, and is cognate with scarabaeus. The link between Latin scarabeus 'a k. of beetle' and Greek ká...
by Octavià
Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:32 am
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

Well, okay, let's suppose you're right and crab is a loan from kárabos. I don't think crab can be a loanword from Greek. What I said is that the Greek could have the same origin than the Germanic one. How would that be evidence for Semitic languages being spoken in Europe ? That is what you're prop...
by Octavià
Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:32 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

WeepingElf wrote:
Octavià wrote:
con quesa wrote:Why is the OED's etymology unteneble?
Because semantics doesn't match.
Sure, the meaning has changed; but it changed in a reasonable way. "Claw" is a suitable pars pro toto designation for a crab, isn't it?
What about the Latin and Greek words?
by Octavià
Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:00 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

Why is the OED's etymology unteneble? Because semantics doesn't match. How is the Semetic word an "exact match" (*ʔa-qarab doesn't sound like an exact match to /kræb/ or something that might've been the ancestor of /kræb/, although I confess that I'm not well-versed in the relevant sound changes in...
by Octavià
Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:40 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

Count Iblis wrote:English crab comes from PIE *gerbh/grebh "to scratch, claw"
This is what the Oxford Etymological Dictionary (OED) says, but IMHO this is etymology is untenable.
Count Iblis wrote:I can't find any good cognates outside of PIE and may be onomatopoeic in origin.
I disagree. The Semitic word is an exact match :-)
by Octavià
Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:54 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

Some words may have been inherited from PIE, but lost in all other branches. Admittedly, the chances of that are slim, and if there are hundreds of words without known cognates in other branches of Indo-European, it is indeed likely that most of them are borrowed from other languages, perhaps of se...
by Octavià
Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:40 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

That there are dozens of PIE words that closely resemble certain Semitic words has been noticed by scholars way long ago, and led quite a few to the conclusion that Semitic was related to Indo-European. In my opinion, though, it is more likely that both families borrowed from a common source - name...
by Octavià
Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:52 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

Οctavίà wrote:This is my real name.
This was the troll. I beg the Forum's moderators/administrators to ban him.
by Octavià
Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:04 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

Goatface wrote:No no, that's not the real Octaviano; this one is a hilarious troll impersonating him. Their ranks are different.
That's right, somebody has cloned my account and is impersonating me. You can still differentiate us by the post count.
by Octavià
Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:24 am
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

It looks like you reject the idea that non-IE languages were once spoken in Europe. You shoud know that I don't. Of course there were plenty of non-IE languages spoken in Neolithic Europe, even if one counts Hesperic as IE. It is just that I am careful with my assumptions on what those non-IE langu...
by Octavià
Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:22 am
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

I disagree. Although certainly we've got not much data, this isn't exactly the same thing as nothing. For example, Germanic languages have a noticeable non-IE substrate , but AFAIK very few linguists have afforded to study it. To me, it looks like substrate languages are the lumpenproletariat of hi...
by Octavià
Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:50 am
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

I disagree. Although certainly we've got not much data, this isn't exactly the same thing as nothing. For example, Germanic languages have a noticeable non-IE substrate, but AFAIK very few linguists have afforded to study it. To me, it looks like substrate languages are the lumpenproletariat of hist...
by Octavià
Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:36 pm
Forum: Languages & Linguistics
Topic: European languages before Indo-European
Replies: 812
Views: 230588

Re: European languages before Indo-European

In my opinion, the Old European Hydronymy points towards the languages of the Central European Neolithic having been languages related to Indo-European, but branching off before the latter developed the ablaut system. But this theory doesn't exclude other languages being spoken there or in other pa...