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Dewrad
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Post by Dewrad »

Trebor wrote:cool thread; i would like to place a request for pie > albanian sound changes, and whatever comes in between. :)
It occurs to me that I have a list of these hanging about somewhere as I intend on pillaging them for a daughter-language of proto-Tailanca at some point.

:rummages:

Here they are, but they're not in diachronic order though:

General Developments:

A voiced stop is lost between vowels under uncertain conditions, e.g. det sea < *dheubh-et
In a cluster of two stops the first is lost, e.g. nat? night < *nokwt-
In a cluster of stop+nasal, the stop disappears after the nasal was assimilated to the stop, e.g. gjum? sleep < *supnos
A stop after a nasal becomes voiced, e.g. n?nd? nine < *neun-ti
A nasal before a sibilant was lost, pes? five < *penkwe
In the Tosk dialect, intervocalic -n- becomes -r- and *aN becomes ?N.

The consonants:

bh > b
dh > d
tj > s
dj > z
dhj > z
kw > s (or k, under uncertain circumstances)
gw > z (or g)
gwh > z (or g)
k' > th
g' > dh
g'h > d- when initial, -dh- otherwise.
k'j > s
k'w > s
g'(h)w > z
k'l > q
g'l > gj
sk > shq before front vowels
sk > h
k' > k after a nasal
g' > g ditto
s- > sh- or gj- (seemingly at random)
-s > -sh or -? (ditto)
sp > f
sw > d before the stress, v otherwise.
sd(h) > z
r > rr or r (again, randomly)
sr > r (with lengthened vowel)
sl > ll (ditto)
l > l or ll (randomly)
n > nj (before front vowels)
-nj > -j when final
r= > ri
wl= > ul
m= > a
j > gj- (when initial, ? otherwise)
w > v (ditto)
i > e before ā
u > y before i in the next syllable
ū > y (or i)
e > je in an open syllable
e > ja in a closed syllable
e > i randomly
o > a (and then > e before an i in the next syllable)
oN > ?N
ō > e
ā > o
ā > va when initial
ei > i
oi > e
ai > e
eu > e
ou > a
au > a
au > ve when initial

N.B. <q> represents /c/, and <gj> /j\/

As can be seen, there's much we don't know.
Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
Salmoneus wrote:(NB Dewrad is behaving like an adult - a petty, sarcastic and uncharitable adult, admittedly, but none the less note the infinitely higher quality of flame)

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Post by Mecislau »

Continuing my list of AA changes from yesterday...

Borafrasian to Proto-Semitic:

X\_r > ?\
[i, u, @] > @
tl' > K / _C[+sibilant]
G > g / #_VC[+laryngeal]
x > k / #_VC[+laryngeal]
[G, Gw)] > g / #_Vx
[k', k'w)] > k / #dlV_
Cw) > C
? > ?\ / #K_r#


I'll do individual Semitic languages later. Gotta go now....

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Post by Das Baron »

I'd like to request Proto-Germanic -> Old Norse -> Modern Icelandic
AKA Benjaburns

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Matt
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Post by Matt »

I found a site that has animated sound changes from Proto-Algonquian to Arapaho (only two words, but it's still neat).
Kuku-kuku kaki kakak kakekku kaku kaku.
'the toenails of my grandfather's elder brother are stiff'

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vohpenonomae
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Post by vohpenonomae »

Matt wrote:I found a site that has animated sound changes from Proto-Algonquian to Arapaho (only two words, but it's still neat).
Arapaho's phonological history is just as weird as Cheyenne's, but it hasn't been as exhaustively studied.
"On that island lies the flesh and bone of the Great Charging Bear, for as long as the grass grows and water runs," he said. "Where his spirit dwells, no one can say."

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Post by Whimemsz »

Matt wrote:I found a site that has animated sound changes from Proto-Algonquian to Arapaho (only two words, but it's still neat).
I thought PA for "bear" was reconstructed as *mahkwa.

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Post by vohpenonomae »

Whimemsz wrote:
Matt wrote:I found a site that has animated sound changes from Proto-Algonquian to Arapaho (only two words, but it's still neat).
I thought PA for "bear" was reconstructed as *mahkwa.
PA for 'bear' is mahkwa; the site is wrong (indeed, according to Ives Goddard, PA /l/ was actually /r/). The Cheyenne reflex is nahkohe, which could not have been derived from malkwa, since the Cheyenne reflex of PA /l/ (or /r/) is /t/, and furthermore there's no instance of /l/-/r/ becoming /h/ in Cheyenne. And, to top it off, l+k was not a legal consonant cluster in PA.
"On that island lies the flesh and bone of the Great Charging Bear, for as long as the grass grows and water runs," he said. "Where his spirit dwells, no one can say."

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Whimemsz
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Post by Whimemsz »

jsburke wrote:
Whimemsz wrote:
Matt wrote:I found a site that has animated sound changes from Proto-Algonquian to Arapaho (only two words, but it's still neat).
I thought PA for "bear" was reconstructed as *mahkwa.
PA for 'bear' is mahkwa; the site is wrong (indeed, according to Ives Goddard, PA /l/ was actually /r/). The Cheyenne reflex is nahkohe, which could not have been derived from malkwa, since the Cheyenne reflex of PA /l/ (or /r/) is /t/, and furthermore there's no instance of /l/-/r/ becoming /h/ in Cheyenne. And, to top it off, l+k was not a legal consonant cluster in PA.
The Ojibwe reflex is makwa, and Ojibwe fortis obstruents all come from PA preaspirates (like *hk) or x+C, th+C, or ?+C clusters.

But then again, it's not as impressive for PA *h to become x in Arapaho as it is for PA *l (or *r, I guess) to become x.

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Post by vohpenonomae »

Whimemsz wrote:
jsburke wrote:
Whimemsz wrote:
Matt wrote:I found a site that has animated sound changes from Proto-Algonquian to Arapaho (only two words, but it's still neat).
I thought PA for "bear" was reconstructed as *mahkwa.
PA for 'bear' is mahkwa; the site is wrong (indeed, according to Ives Goddard, PA /l/ was actually /r/). The Cheyenne reflex is nahkohe, which could not have been derived from malkwa, since the Cheyenne reflex of PA /l/ (or /r/) is /t/, and furthermore there's no instance of /l/-/r/ becoming /h/ in Cheyenne. And, to top it off, l+k was not a legal consonant cluster in PA.
The Ojibwe reflex is makwa, and Ojibwe fortis obstruents all come from PA preaspirates (like *hk) or x+C, th+C, or ?+C clusters.

But then again, it's not as impressive for PA *h to become x in Arapaho as it is for PA *l (or *r, I guess) to become x.
Looking over Paul Proulx's "Prehistoric Algonquian Vocabulary," he reconstructs an earlier version of 'bear' as mathkwa (or malhkwa, if PA /th/ was actually a lateral fricative, as some believe). /th/ or /lh/ + /k/ was a legal PA cluster. The PA preaspirates formed mostly from coda-onset clusters, where the initial consonant in the cluster reduced to preaspiration on the second, as in th/lh+k > hk. That's what happened with mahkwa. The symbol normally used for the PA lateral fricative is a barred <l>; perhaps the author of that site saw the earlier version of the word written out somewhere and ignored the bar, not realizing that it indicated a different sound from <l>.
"On that island lies the flesh and bone of the Great Charging Bear, for as long as the grass grows and water runs," he said. "Where his spirit dwells, no one can say."

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Post by Whimemsz »

PROTO-ALGONQUIAN --> OJIBWE

This post used to contain an older, worse version, so I'm updating it after many years now. My sources for these changes are varied, but include: (1) my own determination by looking at PA words and their Ojibwe reflexes; (2) this site; (3) Leonard Bloomfield's 1946 reconstruction of PA; and (4) various asides and statements in dozens of different journal articles and conference papers dealing with Ojibwe or PA. I've tried to order the changes correctly, based on how widespread the change is in Algonquian as a whole (e.g., the change of */we/ > /o/ in initial syllables is so widespread I suspect it was already dialectal in the PA period); whether it actually happened during the historical period (e.g., the earliest European attestations of Ojibwe words show that the change of /l~r/ > /n/ had not yet occurred); and whether the given ordering actually produces the correct Ojibwe forms (e.g., the cluster */rk/ must have become /sk/ AFTER the change of original */sk/ to /k/, because otherwise PA */rk/ would be Ojibwe /k/).

Proto-Algonquian had the consonants */p, t, ʧ, k, s, ʃ, h, m, n, r, θ, w, j/. A glottal stop can also appear as the first member of a consonant cluster, representing the neutralization of */p/ and */k/. The exact value of */θ/ is unknown, but it doesn't always pattern as though it were an obstruent. The obstruents were fortis when part of a cluster with another obstruent or */r/, but lenis elsewhere. Although the distinction was not phonemic at the PA period, it will help illuminate the Ojibwe changes to explicitly mark it; therefore, I'll write the PA lenis allophones of the obstruents as "*/b, d, ʤ, g, z, ʒ/", and the fortis allophones as "*/p, t, ʧ, k, s, ʃ/". The Proto-Algonquian vowels were */i, iː, e, eː, o, oː, a, aː/.

The possible clusters in PA were */ʧp, ʧk, sp, sk, θp, θk, rk, ʃp, ʃt, ʃk, ʔt, ʔʧ, ʔs, ʔʃ, ʔθ, ʔr, hp, ht, hʧ, hk, hs, hʃ, hθ, hr, mb, nd, nʤ, ng, nz, nʒ, nθ, nr/, plus */Hm/, that is, */m/ preceded by either an */h/ or */ʔ/, but we don't know which.



we --> o

e --> i

wi --> i /{t,r}__

{s,θ,ʔ,h} --> Ø /__{p,t,ʧ,k}

θ --> r

{ʔs,hs,ʔr,hr} --> s

{ʔ,h} --> Ø /__ʃ

{nr,rr} --> r

Hm --> m

rk --> sk

(w,y)V[short] --> Ø /C__# (that is, final short vowels plus any preceding postconsonantal semivowel drop; however, this change does not occur in two-syllable words when the first syllable contains a short vowel, but only in three+-syllable words or two-syllable words in which the first syllable contains a long vowel)

{w,y}V[short] --> Ø /V[long]__# (I'm unsure if this is a universal change)

V[short] --> Ø /V[short]{w,y}__# (I'm unsure if this is a universal change)

jeː --> iː /C__

ja --> iː /C__C

j --> Ø /C__

r --> n



When I finally get my Ojibwe webpage up there's going to be more info on this stuff on there!
Last edited by Whimemsz on Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Post by garrett »

And, to top it off, l+k was not a legal consonant cluster in PA.
what were the legal clusters in PA?

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Post by vohpenonomae »

garrett wrote:
And, to top it off, l+k was not a legal consonant cluster in PA.
what were the legal clusters in PA?
<th> is used instead of <lh>, though the sound could have been either; and <l> is used instead of <r>, though the sound was probably [r]. And the preaspirates are treated as clusters, since this list comes from Bloomfield (who did not recognized h+C as unitary sounds; that came later).

mp
hp
xp
chp
shp
nt
ht
?t
sht
nk
hk
xk
thk
chk
shk
nch
hch
?ch
ns
hs
?s
nsh
hsh
?sh
nth
hth
?th
nl
hl
?l
"On that island lies the flesh and bone of the Great Charging Bear, for as long as the grass grows and water runs," he said. "Where his spirit dwells, no one can say."

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Post by garrett »

on clusters like "nk" as it realised with a velar /N/ or was it /n/

could you use X-sampa?

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Post by doctrellor »

I saved the sound changed onto word..and I got 44 pages of stuff..I am gonna have more natlang SC examples than I'll know what to do with..:)

By the way, when I finish with Proto-Bantu -> Rangi, I'll post thier SC's, as well as Proto-Bantu -> Kenyang and a for others..

So I get to have fun and start a group of SC's here myself..:)
Nilikuonyesha nyota (mwezi) na uliangalia kidole tu.
I pointed out to you the stars (the moon) and all you saw was the tip of my finger.

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Post by Whimemsz »

garrett wrote:on clusters like "nk" as it realised with a velar /N/ or was it /n/

could you use X-sampa?
Most of the values already are X-SAMPA. <th> is /T/ (or /K/), as Jeff said, <l> was probably /r/, <ch> is /tS/, <sh> is /S/.

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Post by vohpenonomae »

Whimemsz wrote:
garrett wrote:on clusters like "nk" as it realised with a velar /N/ or was it /n/

could you use X-sampa?
Most of the values already are X-SAMPA. <th> is /T/ (or /K/), as Jeff said, <l> was probably /r/, <ch> is /tS/, <sh> is /S/.
<nk> is n+k, not a velar nasal (in PA at least; in some of the daughters it becomes realized as a velar nasal, such as Miami).
"On that island lies the flesh and bone of the Great Charging Bear, for as long as the grass grows and water runs," he said. "Where his spirit dwells, no one can say."

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Post by tiramisu »

P in Celtic languages

IE *p- > 0 (but in P-Celtic, the *p- sometimes returned)
IE *-p- > *-k- > *-k- (Q-Celtic), *-k_w- > p (P-Celtic)
IE *-k_w- > p (P-Celtic)
The difference between Q- and P-Celtic is based on the word five. In Old Irish, it's *coic, hence the q. In Proto-P-Celtic, it's *pimp, hence the p.
Last edited by tiramisu on Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Dauyn »

By request,
from McCone's Towards a Relative Chronology of Ancient and Medieval Celtic Sound Change. Maynooth Studies in Celtic Linguistics, 1996

PIE > Proto-Celtic

[] used to enclose required options, [a,b] = a or b, but one MUST be there
{} encloses complex but unitary elements, {long o} = /o:/, usually these are things I don't know the X-SAMPA for
() optional
$ one syllable
# word boundary
+ morpheme boundary
C_o = syllabic cons

g_w > b
g_w_h > g_w
aspirate stops deaspirated
tk > kt, dg > gd
[k,p] > x / _[t,s]
p...k > k...k
p> b / V_{liquid}
p > w / {back V}_n
p > {phi}, except s_
{phi} > 0
sm, sn > mm, nn / V_V
a > &, e > I, o: > {long tense o} / _{nasal}{stop}
sl, sr > ll, rr / V_V
tt > tst > st > ss

/j w r l n m/ become syllabic in certain environments
r = resonant consonant
R = syllabic resonant
environments: CRC, VrR, RrV, CV:CRV, CVCCRV

m > 0 / _w
w > b / _n
ln > ll
je > i, eje > e: > i:
laryngeals > 0 / {syllabic liquid}_j
{laryngeal}{syllabic liquid} > ar, al / _{stop}
{syllabic liquid} > ri, li / _ stop otherwise > ar, al
{syllabic nasal} > an, am
laryngeal affection of neighboring vowels
{laryngeal} > 0 +compensatory lengthening (aka complen) / V_C
{laryngeal} > V / C_C (V usually a)
[r_o, l_o, n_o, m_o]{laryngeal} > {ra:, la:, na:, ma:} / _{nasal}
uw > ow / _{any V that isn't i}
e > & / _{resonant}a
apocope of final vowels
& > e / _{resonant}# or _(C)(C)[i,u]
& > a
e: > i:
V: > V / _m
o: > a:, but > u: / in final syll.
n > 0 + complen / _s
ei > e:
V: > V / _clusters (Osthoff clusters: [liquid, nasal]{stop] or [stop][glide] etc.)
eu > ou
o:j > u:i, [a:j, a:i] > ai, a:u > au

enjoy!

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Post by hwhatting »

Zeikan wrote:P in Celtic languages
IE *p- > 0 (but in P-Celtic, the *p- sometimes returned)
This is misleading - it didn't "return", p-Celtic has a new /p/ from PIE/Proto-Celtic *k_w
Zeikan wrote: IE *-p- > *-k- > *-k- (Q-Celtic)
What is is this supposed to mean? There is no such development.
Zeikan wrote: The difference between Q- and P-Celtic is based on the word five. In Proto-Q-Celtic, it's *coic, hence the q. In Proto-P-Celtic, it's *pimp, hence the p.
The word for "five" is used as illustration, correct. But c?ic is Old Irish; probably, there was no Proto-Q-Celtic - the Q-Celtic languages (Goidelic and Celtiberian) just retained an old feature, without any further common developments, while the P-Celtic languages (Gaulish, Brythonic) show indeed common developments, so that it's probable that they went through a common stage. (The Proto-C-Celtic form was probably *pempe).

You also forgot the development PIE -*p before stops and /*s/ to Proto-Celtic /x/ (e.g. Old Irish secht "7" from PIE *septm).
Best regards,
Hans-Werner

(Edited for typos and clarity)
Last edited by hwhatting on Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by tiramisu »

hwhatting wrote:
Zeikan wrote: IE *-p- > *-k- > *-k- (Q-Celtic)
What is is this supposed to mean? There is no such development.
Sorry, I shouldn't have used the -'s, they're confusing due to their uselessness.
Zeikan wrote: The difference between Q- and P-Celtic is based on the word five. In Proto-Q-Celtic, it's *coic, hence the q. In Proto-P-Celtic, it's *pimp, hence the p.
The word for "five" is used as illustration, correct. But c?ic is Old Irish; propbalbly, there was no Proto-Q-Celtic - the Q-Celtic languages (Goidelic and Celtiberian) just retained an old feature, without changing any further common developments, while the P-Celtic languages (Gaulish, Brythonic) show indeed common developments, so that it's probable that they went through a common stage. (The Proto-C-Celtic form was probably *pempe).
Yeah, you're right. Proto-Q-Celtic is Old Irish. I'll change that.

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Post by Das Baron »

Does anyone have the Proto-Germanic -> Old Norse -> Modern Icelandic
changes?
AKA Benjaburns

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Post by brandrinn »

i have a request (but dont forget about the one Benjaburns made above me).

i am interested in the sound changes from PIE to Proto-Italic, and also the sound changes from there to the main sub-branches of Italic, Latin-Faliscan, and Osco-Umbrian. that's three sets of sound changes, so i'd consider myself lucky if i get even one.

thanks in advance.
[quote="Nortaneous"]Is South Africa better off now than it was a few decades ago?[/quote]

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Post by Mecislau »

brandrinn wrote:i have a request (but dont forget about the one Benjaburns made above me).

i am interested in the sound changes from PIE to Proto-Italic, and also the sound changes from there to the main sub-branches of Italic, Latin-Faliscan, and Osco-Umbrian. that's three sets of sound changes, so i'd consider myself lucky if i get even one.

thanks in advance.
Check out the thread itself first, brandrinn! Latin's already here.

PIE to Latin

Of course, I'm not exactly sure where the boundary between Proto-Italic and Latin is there.

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Post by Trebor »

/me puts in a request for PFU :> Finnish and PFU :> Estonian sound changes.

(I want to try something like Wenedyk, but a bit different: apply Balto-Finnic sound changes to English. If I can find a really comprehensive grammar and lexicon of Vulgar Latin, then I'll substitute that for English.)

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Post by Corumayas »

Maknas wrote:
brandrinn wrote:i have a request (but dont forget about the one Benjaburns made above me).

i am interested in the sound changes from PIE to Proto-Italic, and also the sound changes from there to the main sub-branches of Italic, Latin-Faliscan, and Osco-Umbrian. that's three sets of sound changes, so i'd consider myself lucky if i get even one.

thanks in advance.
Check out the thread itself first, brandrinn! Latin's already here.

PIE to Latin

Of course, I'm not exactly sure where the boundary between Proto-Italic and Latin is there.
One book that I read a year or so ago denied any special connection between Latin-Faliscan and Osco-Umbrian, and reserved the name "Italic" for the latter. As this was an introduction to the IE family, with each chapter written by a specialist in a particular sub-family, and was neither particularly old nor off-the-wall otherwise, I took it at its word. (Sorry I don't remember the title or anything; I believe it had an introductory chapter on PIE by Calvert Watkins.)

In other words, it's quite possible that you won't find the exact lists you're looking for because what you're calling proto-Italic doesn't exist.

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