The Correspondence Library
- Mr. Saturday
- Sanci
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Someöne already posted that earliër.\Mr. Saturday wrote:Request: Latin to Romanian
Just out of curiousity.
EDIT: http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.p ... 557#106557
Nate
- Mr. Saturday
- Sanci
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- Location: Behind you.
Latin > Romanian
h > ? : What is ? here?
n > ? / _(f,v,s) : What is ? here?
m, n > ? / _# in polysyllables : What is ? here?
u > ? / CC_V : What is ? here?
s > ? / _# in polysyllables : What is ? here?
V > "V / "V(stop)r_
V > "V / _C*"(i,e)V : What does _C*"(i,e)V mean?
e, ae > ? : What is ? here?
e:, i, oe > ? : What is ? here?
s > i / #C*V_# : What does #C*V_# mean?
g > dZ / _F : What does _F mean?
? > ie : What is ? here?
ie > e / [+obs][+liq]_
ie > ia / _C*(a,e)# :What the DEUCE does _C*(a,e)# mean?
? > ea / "_C*(a,e)# : What is ? here?
? > e : what is ? here?
i > ? / (ts,dz,S)_V : What is ? here?
b, v > ? / V_(V,t) : What is ? here?
gj > j (sometimes ?) : What is ? here?
dj > Z / _"B : What does _"B mean here?
e > @ / "...[+lab]_C*V(!i)# : What does "...[+lab]_C*V(!i)# mean?
u > ? / (![+obs][+liq], "V)_# : What is ? here?
e > @ / [+lab]"_C*B : What does [+lab]"_C*B mean?
o > u / #C*_..." : Wtf?
a > @ / #CC*_..." :Wtf?
au > @u / #CC*_..." : wtf?
All the things I'm confused about.
h > ? : What is ? here?
n > ? / _(f,v,s) : What is ? here?
m, n > ? / _# in polysyllables : What is ? here?
u > ? / CC_V : What is ? here?
s > ? / _# in polysyllables : What is ? here?
V > "V / "V(stop)r_
V > "V / _C*"(i,e)V : What does _C*"(i,e)V mean?
e, ae > ? : What is ? here?
e:, i, oe > ? : What is ? here?
s > i / #C*V_# : What does #C*V_# mean?
g > dZ / _F : What does _F mean?
? > ie : What is ? here?
ie > e / [+obs][+liq]_
ie > ia / _C*(a,e)# :What the DEUCE does _C*(a,e)# mean?
? > ea / "_C*(a,e)# : What is ? here?
? > e : what is ? here?
i > ? / (ts,dz,S)_V : What is ? here?
b, v > ? / V_(V,t) : What is ? here?
gj > j (sometimes ?) : What is ? here?
dj > Z / _"B : What does _"B mean here?
e > @ / "...[+lab]_C*V(!i)# : What does "...[+lab]_C*V(!i)# mean?
u > ? / (![+obs][+liq], "V)_# : What is ? here?
e > @ / [+lab]"_C*B : What does [+lab]"_C*B mean?
o > u / #C*_..." : Wtf?
a > @ / #CC*_..." :Wtf?
au > @u / #CC*_..." : wtf?
All the things I'm confused about.
Roll the dice.
Every soul's got a price.
[b]Chaotic Sexy[/b]
Every soul's got a price.
[b]Chaotic Sexy[/b]
- Radius Solis
- Smeric
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All the question marks are special characters that went up in smoke when the board migrated servers a couple months back. I'll see if Phar can resurrect what they should have been.Mr. Saturday wrote:Latin > Romanian
h > ? : What is ? here?
n > ? / _(f,v,s) : What is ? here?
m, n > ? / _# in polysyllables : What is ? here?
u > ? / CC_V : What is ? here?
s > ? / _# in polysyllables : What is ? here?
V > "V / "V(stop)r_
V > "V / _C*"(i,e)V : What does _C*"(i,e)V mean?
e, ae > ? : What is ? here?
e:, i, oe > ? : What is ? here?
s > i / #C*V_# : What does #C*V_# mean?
g > dZ / _F : What does _F mean?
? > ie : What is ? here?
ie > e / [+obs][+liq]_
ie > ia / _C*(a,e)# :What the DEUCE does _C*(a,e)# mean?
? > ea / "_C*(a,e)# : What is ? here?
? > e : what is ? here?
i > ? / (ts,dz,S)_V : What is ? here?
b, v > ? / V_(V,t) : What is ? here?
gj > j (sometimes ?) : What is ? here?
dj > Z / _"B : What does _"B mean here?
e > @ / "...[+lab]_C*V(!i)# : What does "...[+lab]_C*V(!i)# mean?
u > ? / (![+obs][+liq], "V)_# : What is ? here?
e > @ / [+lab]"_C*B : What does [+lab]"_C*B mean?
o > u / #C*_..." : Wtf?
a > @ / #CC*_..." :Wtf?
au > @u / #CC*_..." : wtf?
All the things I'm confused about.
He uses the asterisk* here to represent the notion of "zero or more of the previous thing". So #C* means zero or more initial consonants, and #CC* means at least one initial consonant. Ellipsis means "any amount of intervening material", and quote mark is stress, so putting it all together, the condition #CC*_..." means "after at least one initial consonant and with primary stress somewhere after it in the word" and _C*(a,e)# means "before final a or e, but any number of consonants can come in between". Exclamation point means "not" or "except for". So V(!i) means "all vowels except for i".
[+lab] = labials; [+obs] = obstruents, etc. Capital B probably refers to back vowels.
I fixed it.
And yes, B is back vowels, and F is front vowels. I thought I explained my overcompressed notation, but maybe not, or else I did earlier in that thread.
And yes, B is back vowels, and F is front vowels. I thought I explained my overcompressed notation, but maybe not, or else I did earlier in that thread.
Some random stuff I picked up from a book about Finno-Ugric languages, and a book about Estonian lingustics. Not that exciting, but hey, it's sound changes!
Estonian sound changes related to /7/. Not universal, but happened in a couple of words. At least some inspiration.
A > 7
2i > 7i
o > 7
ou > 7u
o > 7
e > 7 (this is very evident in Võro, ei ~ õi)
7 > e
2 > 7
7: > 7e
Something to Votian:
k > tS / _V(front)
Something to Livonian:
e > je /#_
Estonian dialects:
kt > t:
kt > ht
e > 7 (if the word has a back vowel)
tk > tsk
e: > i: /_Ci
Example words from North Estonian:
*tAGlA:*tAGlAn > tAel:tAelA (? nom sg:? gen sg)
*nAkrADAk:*nAGrAn > nAerdA:nAerAn (smile-inf:smile-1ps)
*lAGjA > lAi (wide)
*nEGnyt > nEinud (seen)
*litnA:*liDnAt > linn:linnAd (town nom sg: town nom pl)
Estonian Võru and Setu dialects:
o > u / _nasal
e > i /_nasal
Estonian Kihnu dialect:
E > jA / first syllable
i > j7 / first syllable
uvi > ui
Not a sound change really, but I found it interesting nevertheless. The present tense 1ps ending in Livonian merged with the present tense 3ps ending.
Ma mää'dlõb - I remember
Ta mùoistab - he understands
Estonian sound changes related to /7/. Not universal, but happened in a couple of words. At least some inspiration.
A > 7
2i > 7i
o > 7
ou > 7u
o > 7
e > 7 (this is very evident in Võro, ei ~ õi)
7 > e
2 > 7
7: > 7e
Something to Votian:
k > tS / _V(front)
Something to Livonian:
e > je /#_
Estonian dialects:
kt > t:
kt > ht
e > 7 (if the word has a back vowel)
tk > tsk
e: > i: /_Ci
Example words from North Estonian:
*tAGlA:*tAGlAn > tAel:tAelA (? nom sg:? gen sg)
*nAkrADAk:*nAGrAn > nAerdA:nAerAn (smile-inf:smile-1ps)
*lAGjA > lAi (wide)
*nEGnyt > nEinud (seen)
*litnA:*liDnAt > linn:linnAd (town nom sg: town nom pl)
Estonian Võru and Setu dialects:
o > u / _nasal
e > i /_nasal
Estonian Kihnu dialect:
E > jA / first syllable
i > j7 / first syllable
uvi > ui
Not a sound change really, but I found it interesting nevertheless. The present tense 1ps ending in Livonian merged with the present tense 3ps ending.
Ma mää'dlõb - I remember
Ta mùoistab - he understands
Last edited by Avaja on Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_@'O' \|/
Proto-Athapascan to various Athapascan languages?
Hello everyone!
Coold thread! May I have a request? I'm looking for the sound changes from Proto-Athapascan to the individual Athapascan languages and dialects.
Also, Proto-Athapascan-Eyak to Proto-Athapascan and Proto-Eyak would be great to have. And if somebody had Proto-Athapascan-Eyak-Tlingit to the three, it would be wonderful. THank you for any help in advance!
Best,
Petusek
Coold thread! May I have a request? I'm looking for the sound changes from Proto-Athapascan to the individual Athapascan languages and dialects.
Also, Proto-Athapascan-Eyak to Proto-Athapascan and Proto-Eyak would be great to have. And if somebody had Proto-Athapascan-Eyak-Tlingit to the three, it would be wonderful. THank you for any help in advance!
Best,
Petusek
- Radius Solis
- Smeric
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Re: Proto-Athapascan to various Athapascan languages?
I'm afraid that even in the professional scholarly community, even among world-level universities, insufficient work has been done to give you what you're asking for. No such sound change list exists, for any of the protolanguages above. The best that can be had anywhere is, at most, a list of correspondences between individual daughter-languages. And I've done some looking around myself, and can't tell you where to find anything like that except possibly a university library somewhere.Petusek wrote:Hello everyone!
Coold thread! May I have a request? I'm looking for the sound changes from Proto-Athapascan to the individual Athapascan languages and dialects.
Also, Proto-Athapascan-Eyak to Proto-Athapascan and Proto-Eyak would be great to have. And if somebody had Proto-Athapascan-Eyak-Tlingit to the three, it would be wonderful. THank you for any help in advance!
Best,
Petusek
If you want a detailed list of actual sound changes from proto-Athapaskan, your options are either to wait years or decades for linguists to get around to it, or else to investigate the matter yourself.
Re: Proto-Athapascan to various Athapascan languages?
Well, what about works by Edward Sapir, Pliny E. Goddard, Heinz-Jürgen Pinnow, Michael E. Krauss, Jeff Leer, Egon Renner, Michael Dürr, etc.?Radius Solis wrote: I'm afraid that even in the professional scholarly community, even among world-level universities, insufficient work has been done to give you what you're asking for. No such sound change list exists, for any of the protolanguages above. The best that can be had anywhere is, at most, a list of correspondences between individual daughter-languages. And I've done some looking around myself, and can't tell you where to find anything like that except possibly a university library somewhere.
If you want a detailed list of actual sound changes from proto-Athapaskan, your options are either to wait years or decades for linguists to get around to it, or else to investigate the matter yourself.
The problem is I can't obtain the book here in the Czech Republic. I haven't found a single library that would have at least one paper on Athapascan languages.
I've read several articles whose authors seem to operate with what looks like well-established regular correspondences (proposed mostly by Krauss or Leer, as far as I can remember). Proto-Athapascan sound changes would really suffice, if anybody knew them and could send them to me...
Anyway, thank you for your response.
Best,
Petusek
- Space Dracula
- Lebom
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- Location: Austin fuckin Texas
- Contact:
I don't know these as such, but I can give some links in the right direction:Yanah wrote:What about Proto-Germanic to modern High German?
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/Mar ... ntents.htm
(Also in image form at http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ger ... about.html )
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ger ... about.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Germa ... nant_shift
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mari ... manic.html
http://cassowary.free.fr/Linguistics/Pr ... nflexions/
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ger ... about.html (for secondary information)
http://members.aol.com/rlongman1/protoger.html
<Dudicon> i would but you're too fat to fit in my mouth!!
- Space Dracula
- Lebom
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- Location: Austin fuckin Texas
- Contact:
The only one that I remember (cuz it sticks out), is the merging of e and o into a, to get a 3 vowel system of /a i u/.I'll go back to my PIE>Sanskrit request.
EDIT: Something in head wants to say that the "a" is retroflex, if that makes any sense.
Last edited by Terra on Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Radius Solis
- Smeric
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Well, this is a hairsplitting sort of technicality, but no. To be linguistically correct, Classical and Vulgar Latin were both co-existent daughters of a previous unified Latin. If anybody has sound changes from that to both Vulgar and Classical I'd love to hear them, though.Arunas wrote:Hmmm...I notice all the romance SCs are from Vulgar Latin. Does anyone have the SCs from Classical Latin to Vulgar Latin?
Any chance you know what the original characters were supposed to be (the ones that now show up as question marks)?zompist wrote:Quechua sound changes
Not final by any means...
Ayacucho
? :> ch
sh :> s
q :> [X] (uvular fricative)
(phonetic interpretation of proto-Quechua ? is uncertain; there was a distinction between ch and ? though)
Cuzco
ch :> ch' (word-initially, 50% of cases... otherwise :> ch)
? :> ch
sh :> s
m :> n / _[+dental | +velar]
p :> [F] / _[+stop] F = bilabial fricative
t, ch, ? :> s / _C
k :> x / _C
q :> X / _C
ll :> l / _q
0 :> h / #_V
Rare or incipient changes:
? :> n (4 of 36 cases)
k :> h / V_V (3 of 47 cases)
q :> h / V_V (2 of 42 cases)
w :> y / _$ (3 of 18 cases; $ = syllable boundary)
Cajamarca
? :> tr
h :> 0 / #_
q :> k
ll :> Z / V_V
Jun?n
? :> tr
r :> l
q :> 0 / #_
q :> ? (glottal stop) elsewhere
s :> h / #_ (about 35% of the time; but 58% of cases before a)
Ancash (Huaraz)
? :> ch
ch :> ts (word-initially, 2/3 of the time; otherwise :> ch)
s :> h / #_ (about 45% of the time)
s :> 0 / [+labial]_V
s :> y / V_i, i_V
s :> w / u_V
s :> h / other V_V
? :> n / #_
ll :> l / #_ (about 18% of the time)
ay :> ee
uy :> ii
aw :> oo
q :> X / V_[-voiced]
q :> [+voice] / *_[+voiced] (* = any phoneme)
What, you forgot I kept a copy of all of them on file?Whimemsz wrote:Any chance you know what the original characters were supposed to be (the ones that now show up as question marks)?
The original list wrote:Quechua sound changes
Not final by any means...
Ayacucho
ç ch
sh s
q [X] (uvular fricative)
(phonetic interpretation of proto-Quechua ç is uncertain; there was a distinction between ch and ç though)
Cuzco
ch ch' (word-initially, 50% of cases... otherwise ch)
ç ch
sh s
m n / _[+dental | +velar]
p [F] / _[+stop] F = bilabial fricative
t, ch, ç s / _C
k x / _C
q X / _C
ll l / _q
0 h / #_V
Rare or incipient changes:
ñ n (4 of 36 cases)
k h / V_V (3 of 47 cases)
q h / V_V (2 of 42 cases)
w y / _$ (3 of 18 cases; $ = syllable boundary)
Cajamarca
ç tr
h 0 / #_
q k
ll Z / V_V
Junín
ç tr
r l
q 0 / #_
q ? (glottal stop) elsewhere
s h / #_ (about 35% of the time; but 58% of cases before a)
Ancash (Huaraz)
ç ch
ch ts (word-initially, 2/3 of the time; otherwise ch)
s h / #_ (about 45% of the time)
s 0 / [+labial]_V
s y / V_i, i_V
s w / u_V
s h / other V_V
ñ n / #_
ll l / #_ (about 18% of the time)
ay ee
uy ii
aw oo
q X / V_[-voiced]
q [+voice] / *_[+voiced] (* = any phoneme)
Delayed reaction: so it would be possible to derive a romance language from Classical Latin?Radius Solis wrote:Well, this is a hairsplitting sort of technicality, but no. To be linguistically correct, Classical and Vulgar Latin were both co-existent daughters of a previous unified Latin. If anybody has sound changes from that to both Vulgar and Classical I'd love to hear them, though.Arunas wrote:Hmmm...I notice all the romance SCs are from Vulgar Latin. Does anyone have the SCs from Classical Latin to Vulgar Latin?
agus tha mo chluasan eòlach air a’ mhac-talla fhathast / às dèidh dhomh dùsgadh
(mona nicleòid wagner, “fo shneachd”)
(mona nicleòid wagner, “fo shneachd”)
Nice. So does the V - V notation mean "first vowel, 2nd vowel" or something else? AFAIK PFS had only /a ä e/ in unstressed syllables, but you have a few changes involving an unstressed /O ê/; as well as non-harmonic vowel pairings, neither of which I don't see any of the other changes explaining. Unless you did not include vowel changes involving consonants? At least the /O/ could be plausibly the same as in Balto-Finnic (ie. from PFU /av/).Avaja wrote:Finno-Saamic > North Sámi (vowels)
Note for peeps (esp. Trebor) — I'm myself working on a comprehensiv set of changes from Proto-Fennic to Finnish… It's taking time, tho, as I'm new at this and my sorce is not the clearest on what does what. But I am almost done… now if I only had the time to finalize it.
Why would E become ea when all of them have already disappeared?pharazon wrote:Latin > Romanian
E>ie
E > ea / "_C*(a,e)#
EDIT:in the PIE>Armenian ones I'm sure the p,t and k sound changes would have to have happened before the b, d and g ones. I'm being very picky/proofreading however you wish to describe it.