The Correspondence Library

[Lleu]

Does anyone know of the PIE>Sanskrit sound changes?

[Mr. Saturday]

Request: Latin to Romanian

Just out of curiousity.

[Lleu]

Actually scratch the PIE>Sanskrit request. Instead, I need Vulgar Latin>Neapolitan.

[goneriku]

Request: Latin to Romanian

Just out of curiousity.

Someöne already posted that earliër.\
EDIT: http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.p ... 557#106557

Nate

[Mr. Saturday]

Latin > Romanian

h > ? : What is ? here?
n > ? / _(f,v,s) : What is ? here?
m, n > ? / _# in polysyllables : What is ? here?
u > ? / CC_V : What is ? here?
s > ? / _# in polysyllables : What is ? here?
V > "V / "V(stop)r_
V > "V / _C*"(i,e)V : What does _C*"(i,e)V mean?
e, ae > ? : What is ? here?
e:, i, oe > ? : What is ? here?
s > i / #C*V_# : What does #C*V_# mean?
g > dZ / _F : What does _F mean?
? > ie : What is ? here?
ie > e / [+obs][+liq]_
ie > ia / _C*(a,e)# :What the DEUCE does _C*(a,e)# mean?
? > ea / "_C*(a,e)# : What is ? here?
? > e : what is ? here?
i > ? / (ts,dz,S)_V : What is ? here?
b, v > ? / V_(V,t) : What is ? here?
gj > j (sometimes ?) : What is ? here?
dj > Z / _"B : What does _"B mean here?
e > @ / "...[+lab]_C*V(!i)# : What does "...[+lab]_C*V(!i)# mean?
u > ? / (![+obs][+liq], "V)_# : What is ? here?
e > @ / [+lab]"_C*B : What does [+lab]"_C*B mean?
o > u / #C*_..." : Wtf?
a > @ / #CC*_..." :Wtf?
au > @u / #CC*_..." : wtf?


All the things I'm confused about.

[Radius Solis]

Latin > Romanian

h > ? : What is ? here?
n > ? / _(f,v,s) : What is ? here?
m, n > ? / _# in polysyllables : What is ? here?
u > ? / CC_V : What is ? here?
s > ? / _# in polysyllables : What is ? here?
V > "V / "V(stop)r_
V > "V / _C*"(i,e)V : What does _C*"(i,e)V mean?
e, ae > ? : What is ? here?
e:, i, oe > ? : What is ? here?
s > i / #C*V_# : What does #C*V_# mean?
g > dZ / _F : What does _F mean?
? > ie : What is ? here?
ie > e / [+obs][+liq]_
ie > ia / _C*(a,e)# :What the DEUCE does _C*(a,e)# mean?
? > ea / "_C*(a,e)# : What is ? here?
? > e : what is ? here?
i > ? / (ts,dz,S)_V : What is ? here?
b, v > ? / V_(V,t) : What is ? here?
gj > j (sometimes ?) : What is ? here?
dj > Z / _"B : What does _"B mean here?
e > @ / "...[+lab]_C*V(!i)# : What does "...[+lab]_C*V(!i)# mean?
u > ? / (![+obs][+liq], "V)_# : What is ? here?
e > @ / [+lab]"_C*B : What does [+lab]"_C*B mean?
o > u / #C*_..." : Wtf?
a > @ / #CC*_..." :Wtf?
au > @u / #CC*_..." : wtf?


All the things I'm confused about.

All the question marks are special characters that went up in smoke when the board migrated servers a couple months back. I'll see if Phar can resurrect what they should have been.

He uses the asterisk* here to represent the notion of "zero or more of the previous thing". So #C* means zero or more initial consonants, and #CC* means at least one initial consonant. Ellipsis means "any amount of intervening material", and quote mark is stress, so putting it all together, the condition #CC*_..." means "after at least one initial consonant and with primary stress somewhere after it in the word" and _C*(a,e)# means "before final a or e, but any number of consonants can come in between". Exclamation point means "not" or "except for". So V(!i) means "all vowels except for i".

[+lab] = labials; [+obs] = obstruents, etc. Capital B probably refers to back vowels.

[pharazon]

I fixed it.

And yes, B is back vowels, and F is front vowels. I thought I explained my overcompressed notation, but maybe not, or else I did earlier in that thread.

[Avaja]

Some random stuff I picked up from a book about Finno-Ugric languages, and a book about Estonian lingustics. Not that exciting, but hey, it's sound changes!

Estonian sound changes related to /7/. Not universal, but happened in a couple of words. At least some inspiration.

A > 7
2i > 7i
o > 7
ou > 7u
o > 7
e > 7 (this is very evident in Võro, ei ~ õi)
7 > e
2 > 7
7: > 7e

Something to Votian:
k > tS / _V(front)

Something to Livonian:
e > je /#_

Estonian dialects:
kt > t:
kt > ht
e > 7 (if the word has a back vowel)
tk > tsk
e: > i: /_Ci

Example words from North Estonian:
*tAGlA:*tAGlAn > tAel:tAelA (? nom sg:? gen sg)
*nAkrADAk:*nAGrAn > nAerdA:nAerAn (smile-inf:smile-1ps)
*lAGjA > lAi (wide)
*nEGnyt > nEinud (seen)
*litnA:*liDnAt > linn:linnAd (town nom sg: town nom pl)

Estonian Võru and Setu dialects:
o > u / _nasal
e > i /_nasal

Estonian Kihnu dialect:
E > jA / first syllable
i > j7 / first syllable
uvi > ui

Not a sound change really, but I found it interesting nevertheless. The present tense 1ps ending in Livonian merged with the present tense 3ps ending.
Ma mää'dlõb - I remember
Ta mùoistab - he understands

[Petusek]

Hello everyone!

Coold thread! May I have a request? I'm looking for the sound changes from Proto-Athapascan to the individual Athapascan languages and dialects.

Also, Proto-Athapascan-Eyak to Proto-Athapascan and Proto-Eyak would be great to have. And if somebody had Proto-Athapascan-Eyak-Tlingit to the three, it would be wonderful. THank you for any help in advance!

Best,

Petusek

[Radius Solis]

Hello everyone!

Coold thread! May I have a request? I'm looking for the sound changes from Proto-Athapascan to the individual Athapascan languages and dialects.

Also, Proto-Athapascan-Eyak to Proto-Athapascan and Proto-Eyak would be great to have. And if somebody had Proto-Athapascan-Eyak-Tlingit to the three, it would be wonderful. THank you for any help in advance!

Best,

Petusek

I'm afraid that even in the professional scholarly community, even among world-level universities, insufficient work has been done to give you what you're asking for. No such sound change list exists, for any of the protolanguages above. The best that can be had anywhere is, at most, a list of correspondences between individual daughter-languages. And I've done some looking around myself, and can't tell you where to find anything like that except possibly a university library somewhere.

If you want a detailed list of actual sound changes from proto-Athapaskan, your options are either to wait years or decades for linguists to get around to it, or else to investigate the matter yourself.

[Petusek]

I'm afraid that even in the professional scholarly community, even among world-level universities, insufficient work has been done to give you what you're asking for. No such sound change list exists, for any of the protolanguages above. The best that can be had anywhere is, at most, a list of correspondences between individual daughter-languages. And I've done some looking around myself, and can't tell you where to find anything like that except possibly a university library somewhere.

If you want a detailed list of actual sound changes from proto-Athapaskan, your options are either to wait years or decades for linguists to get around to it, or else to investigate the matter yourself.

Well, what about works by Edward Sapir, Pliny E. Goddard, Heinz-Jürgen Pinnow, Michael E. Krauss, Jeff Leer, Egon Renner, Michael Dürr, etc.?

The problem is I can't obtain the book here in the Czech Republic. I haven't found a single library that would have at least one paper on Athapascan languages.

I've read several articles whose authors seem to operate with what looks like well-established regular correspondences (proposed mostly by Krauss or Leer, as far as I can remember). Proto-Athapascan sound changes would really suffice, if anybody knew them and could send them to me...

Anyway, thank you for your response.

Best,

Petusek

[Lleu]

I'll go back to my PIE>Sanskrit request.

[Yanah]

What about Proto-Germanic to modern High German?

[Space Dracula]

What about Proto-Germanic to modern High German?

I don't know these as such, but I can give some links in the right direction:

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/Mar ... ntents.htm

(Also in image form at http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ger ... about.html )

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ger ... about.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Germa ... nant_shift

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mari ... manic.html

http://cassowary.free.fr/Linguistics/Pr ... nflexions/

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ger ... about.html (for secondary information)

http://members.aol.com/rlongman1/protoger.html

[Space Dracula]

Also, plz to giving me sound changes that lead to High German dialects, esp. Swiss German and Bavarian.

[Lleu]

Hmmm...I notice all the romance SCs are from Vulgar Latin. Does anyone have the SCs from Classical Latin to Vulgar Latin?

[Terra]

I'll go back to my PIE>Sanskrit request.

The only one that I remember (cuz it sticks out), is the merging of e and o into a, to get a 3 vowel system of /a i u/.

EDIT: Something in head wants to say that the "a" is retroflex, if that makes any sense.

[Radius Solis]

Hmmm...I notice all the romance SCs are from Vulgar Latin. Does anyone have the SCs from Classical Latin to Vulgar Latin?

Well, this is a hairsplitting sort of technicality, but no. To be linguistically correct, Classical and Vulgar Latin were both co-existent daughters of a previous unified Latin. If anybody has sound changes from that to both Vulgar and Classical I'd love to hear them, though.

[Whimemsz]

Quechua sound changes

Not final by any means...

Ayacucho

? :> ch
sh :> s
q :> [X] (uvular fricative)

(phonetic interpretation of proto-Quechua ? is uncertain; there was a distinction between ch and ? though)

Cuzco

ch :> ch' (word-initially, 50% of cases... otherwise :> ch)
? :> ch
sh :> s
m :> n / _[+dental | +velar]

p :> [F] / _[+stop] F = bilabial fricative
t, ch, ? :> s / _C
k :> x / _C
q :> X / _C
ll :> l / _q

0 :> h / #_V

Rare or incipient changes:

? :> n (4 of 36 cases)
k :> h / V_V (3 of 47 cases)
q :> h / V_V (2 of 42 cases)
w :> y / _$ (3 of 18 cases; $ = syllable boundary)

Cajamarca

? :> tr
h :> 0 / #_
q :> k
ll :> Z / V_V

Jun?n

? :> tr
r :> l
q :> 0 / #_
q :> ? (glottal stop) elsewhere
s :> h / #_ (about 35% of the time; but 58% of cases before a)

Ancash (Huaraz)

? :> ch
ch :> ts (word-initially, 2/3 of the time; otherwise :> ch)
s :> h / #_ (about 45% of the time)
s :> 0 / [+labial]_V
s :> y / V_i, i_V
s :> w / u_V
s :> h / other V_V
? :> n / #_
ll :> l / #_ (about 18% of the time)
ay :> ee
uy :> ii
aw :> oo
q :> X / V_[-voiced]
q :> [+voice] / *_[+voiced] (* = any phoneme)

Any chance you know what the original characters were supposed to be (the ones that now show up as question marks)?

[Mecislau]

Any chance you know what the original characters were supposed to be (the ones that now show up as question marks)?

What, you forgot I kept a copy of all of them on file?

Quechua sound changes

Not final by any means...

Ayacucho

ç ch
sh s
q [X] (uvular fricative)

(phonetic interpretation of proto-Quechua ç is uncertain; there was a distinction between ch and ç though)

Cuzco

ch ch' (word-initially, 50% of cases... otherwise ch)
ç ch
sh s
m n / _[+dental | +velar]

p [F] / _[+stop] F = bilabial fricative
t, ch, ç s / _C
k x / _C
q X / _C
ll l / _q

0 h / #_V

Rare or incipient changes:

ñ n (4 of 36 cases)
k h / V_V (3 of 47 cases)
q h / V_V (2 of 42 cases)
w y / _$ (3 of 18 cases; $ = syllable boundary)

Cajamarca

ç tr
h 0 / #_
q k
ll Z / V_V

Junín

ç tr
r l
q 0 / #_
q ? (glottal stop) elsewhere
s h / #_ (about 35% of the time; but 58% of cases before a)

Ancash (Huaraz)

ç ch
ch ts (word-initially, 2/3 of the time; otherwise ch)
s h / #_ (about 45% of the time)
s 0 / [+labial]_V
s y / V_i, i_V
s w / u_V
s h / other V_V
ñ n / #_
ll l / #_ (about 18% of the time)
ay ee
uy ii
aw oo
q X / V_[-voiced]
q [+voice] / *_[+voiced] (* = any phoneme)

[Whimemsz]

Any chance you know what the original characters were supposed to be (the ones that now show up as question marks)?

What, you forgot I kept a copy of all of them on file?

Evidently! Thanks for the original version.

[Lleu]

Hmmm...I notice all the romance SCs are from Vulgar Latin. Does anyone have the SCs from Classical Latin to Vulgar Latin?

Well, this is a hairsplitting sort of technicality, but no. To be linguistically correct, Classical and Vulgar Latin were both co-existent daughters of a previous unified Latin. If anybody has sound changes from that to both Vulgar and Classical I'd love to hear them, though.

Delayed reaction: so it would be possible to derive a romance language from Classical Latin?

[Tropylium]

Finno-Saamic > North Sámi (vowels)

Nice. So does the V - V notation mean "first vowel, 2nd vowel" or something else? AFAIK PFS had only /a ä e/ in unstressed syllables, but you have a few changes involving an unstressed /O ê/; as well as non-harmonic vowel pairings, neither of which I don't see any of the other changes explaining. Unless you did not include vowel changes involving consonants? At least the /O/ could be plausibly the same as in Balto-Finnic (ie. from PFU /av/).

Note for peeps (esp. Trebor) — I'm myself working on a comprehensiv set of changes from Proto-Fennic to Finnish… It's taking time, tho, as I'm new at this and my sorce is not the clearest on what does what. But I am almost done… now if I only had the time to finalize it.

[jmcd]

Latin > Romanian

E>ie
E > ea / "_C*(a,e)#

Why would E become ea when all of them have already disappeared?

EDIT:in the PIE>Armenian ones I'm sure the p,t and k sound changes would have to have happened before the b, d and g ones. I'm being very picky/proofreading however you wish to describe it.

[goneriku]

I request Old Norse -> Icelandic.