on characterizing the "perfect"
- Radius Solis
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on characterizing the "perfect"
Just a note for those who may be interested.
For as long as I've been acquainted with linguistics, I have found all descriptions of the English perfect that I've run across to be wholly unsatisfying.
* In the LCK Mark characterizes it as basically conveying completion. This has several flaws, most notably 1. you can use it with incomplete actions ("I have done a lot but there's still more to go!") and 2. you can also use the simple past for complete ones ("I did everything on my list.") Mark describes this as "mess" that diverges from prototype. For the purpose of explaining the completion prototype to new people, this works, but for the purpose of describing English we can surely do better.
* Often in our community, and at least some of the time in academic linguistics, you see the perfect characterized as a "past event with present relevance". The trouble here is that we do not normally mention much anything that lacks some kind of present relevance (c.f. Grice). What is "present relevence" even supposed to mean? Descriptions of this sort sometimes treat the perfect as a "bridge" aspect, serving to connect the past to the present - or, in some other languages, the perfective to the imperfective, or the irrealis to the realis. There may be merit to this angle of attack, but I'm mainly concerned with English rather than cross-linguistics at the moment.
Both valiant efforts, but my gut feeling has always been that neither of them hits a home run.
An hour ago I happened across the Perfect aspect article on Wikipedia, only to find a characterization there that does: the perfect "calls a listener's attention to the consequences generated by an action, rather than just the action itself."
My native-speaker intuition says: Bingo.
I have been able to come up with no examples where the perfect doesn't have this effect, and no examples of this effect caused by any of our other grammatical TAM operations. Nor can I think of any situation where this distinction is not the chief motivation to use the perfect over some other form. If you can, please post.
That said, the statement is a touch on the muddy side. I might propose a clarity improvement: "Rather than simply mentioning a past action, the perfect integrates its consequences into the situational context of the speech act." (This doesn't extend so well to the pluperfect and future perfect, though.)
Criticism welcome.
For as long as I've been acquainted with linguistics, I have found all descriptions of the English perfect that I've run across to be wholly unsatisfying.
* In the LCK Mark characterizes it as basically conveying completion. This has several flaws, most notably 1. you can use it with incomplete actions ("I have done a lot but there's still more to go!") and 2. you can also use the simple past for complete ones ("I did everything on my list.") Mark describes this as "mess" that diverges from prototype. For the purpose of explaining the completion prototype to new people, this works, but for the purpose of describing English we can surely do better.
* Often in our community, and at least some of the time in academic linguistics, you see the perfect characterized as a "past event with present relevance". The trouble here is that we do not normally mention much anything that lacks some kind of present relevance (c.f. Grice). What is "present relevence" even supposed to mean? Descriptions of this sort sometimes treat the perfect as a "bridge" aspect, serving to connect the past to the present - or, in some other languages, the perfective to the imperfective, or the irrealis to the realis. There may be merit to this angle of attack, but I'm mainly concerned with English rather than cross-linguistics at the moment.
Both valiant efforts, but my gut feeling has always been that neither of them hits a home run.
An hour ago I happened across the Perfect aspect article on Wikipedia, only to find a characterization there that does: the perfect "calls a listener's attention to the consequences generated by an action, rather than just the action itself."
My native-speaker intuition says: Bingo.
I have been able to come up with no examples where the perfect doesn't have this effect, and no examples of this effect caused by any of our other grammatical TAM operations. Nor can I think of any situation where this distinction is not the chief motivation to use the perfect over some other form. If you can, please post.
That said, the statement is a touch on the muddy side. I might propose a clarity improvement: "Rather than simply mentioning a past action, the perfect integrates its consequences into the situational context of the speech act." (This doesn't extend so well to the pluperfect and future perfect, though.)
Criticism welcome.
- Salmoneus
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I think an improvement would be to say that it's for past events with present relevance. It's not just the consequences, it's present consequences - otherwise you use the pluperfect instead.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
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- Radius Solis
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To paraphrase something you yourself once said to someone else: I refer you to the post you replied to, in which I answer your response to it.Salmoneus wrote:I think an improvement would be to say that it's for past events with present relevance. It's not just the consequences, it's present consequences - otherwise you use the pluperfect instead.
Re: on characterizing the "perfect"
Perhaps something like...Radius Solis wrote:...the perfect "calls a listener's attention to the consequences generated by an action, rather than just the action itself."
....?...the perfect "calls a listener's attention to the present consequences generated by a past action, rather than just the action itself."
I prefer the term "retrospective" for the perfect. I think it captures the idea that you are looking at an action that has been completed, but you are doing it from the present time and weighing its impact.
Also, as a side note:
I would say that the definition given still applies to that sentence. "You have done a lot" shows that "a lot" is completed: it's perfect.Radius Solis wrote:This has several flaws, most notably 1. you can use it with incomplete actions ("I have done a lot but there's still more to go!")
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- Avisaru
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The retrospective (often called "perfect"), which is arguably an aspect but (IMO more) arguably not, does indeed call the speech-act-participants' attention to the effects of the action spoken of, rather than to the action itself.
The time at which the action took place (or will take place), is anterior to the time at which the action's effects are relevant, that is, to the time at which the effects are those to which the speaker wants to call the addressee's attention.
Some grammarians sometimes speak of "relative tense" (a.k.a. "vorzeitigkeit" or "anteriority"). It's values are "anterior vs simultaneous vs posterior". "Anterior" means "happened before some other event also spoken of"; "posterior" means "happened after some other event also spoken of"; "simultaneous" means "overlapping in time with some other event also spoken of".
Speaking of retrospective as a modification of tense, rather than "past event whose effects are still relevant in the present", we might better say "anterior event whose effects are still relevant simultaneously".
So, a "past retrospective" or "past perfect" or "pluperfect", would be calling attention to the effects, at some past time, of some action which took place anterior to that past time.
A "future retrospective" or "future perfect", would be calling attention to the effects, at some future time, of some action which has taken place, or is taking place, or will take place, anterior to that future time.
And similiarly, a "present retrospective" or "present perfect" (a.k.a. "retrospective" or "perfect"), would be calling attention to the effects, at the time of the speech-act,, of some action which has taken place, anterior to the time of the speech act.
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There's been discussion on the ZBB before about this.
See, for instance, http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.p ... rospective and that whole thread, and http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.p ... ive#710669, among others.
And, on the CBB; http://conlanger.com/cbb/viewtopic.php? ... fect#33513 and its thread, and http://conlanger.com/cbb/viewtopic.php? ... fect#21047 and its thread, for instance.
One idea that was raised in the discussion I remember, (but which I can no longer find, so maybe it was pruned), was that there're constructions similar to the "retrospective", except they are to aspect as "retrospective" is to tense; or, they are to mood as "retrospective" is to tense.
For instance this contributor (whose name I've forgotten) stated that in some languages (I forget which ones), a "retrospective"-like construction is used to indicate a perfective-aspect event (that is, the speaker does not intend to discuss the internal temporal structure of the event) whose effects are relevant to an imperfective-aspect situation; perhaps a completed event whose effects have ongoing relevance.
And s/he stated that in some languages (I forget which ones), a "retrospective"-like construction is used to indicate a realis-mood situation (one whose occurrence is a matter of fact) whose effects are relevant to an irrealis-mood situation; perhaps the realis-mood "retrospective" situation's effects, affect whether or not some other situation, about which the speaker is mostly speaking, is possible; or desirable; or obligatory; or some such thing.
If those remarks are true, that is another reason for me to think calling "retrospective" an "aspect" is not universally the best idea.
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I apologize if you think this is condescending, but:
Are you absolutely sure you haven't mixed up "perfect" with "perfective"?
(Avoiding such mix-ups, and avoiding unnecessary questions about potential mix-ups, is one good reason to call this thing "retrospective" instead of "perfect".)
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Wikipedia's article screws up the use and definition of "anterior", as well as calling "perfect" an aspect, which it might not be.
"Anterior" is not correctly used in place of "perfect". They don't mean the same thing. What's perfect (I'd rather say "retrospective") is anterior, but not all that's anterior is perfect. A "perfect" verb refers to an event, whose effects are still relevant at a more-focused (or more-interesting or more-topical) time, such that the "perfect" event was anterior to the more-topical or more-focussed time.
The time at which the action took place (or will take place), is anterior to the time at which the action's effects are relevant, that is, to the time at which the effects are those to which the speaker wants to call the addressee's attention.
Some grammarians sometimes speak of "relative tense" (a.k.a. "vorzeitigkeit" or "anteriority"). It's values are "anterior vs simultaneous vs posterior". "Anterior" means "happened before some other event also spoken of"; "posterior" means "happened after some other event also spoken of"; "simultaneous" means "overlapping in time with some other event also spoken of".
Speaking of retrospective as a modification of tense, rather than "past event whose effects are still relevant in the present", we might better say "anterior event whose effects are still relevant simultaneously".
So, a "past retrospective" or "past perfect" or "pluperfect", would be calling attention to the effects, at some past time, of some action which took place anterior to that past time.
A "future retrospective" or "future perfect", would be calling attention to the effects, at some future time, of some action which has taken place, or is taking place, or will take place, anterior to that future time.
And similiarly, a "present retrospective" or "present perfect" (a.k.a. "retrospective" or "perfect"), would be calling attention to the effects, at the time of the speech-act,, of some action which has taken place, anterior to the time of the speech act.
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There's been discussion on the ZBB before about this.
See, for instance, http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.p ... rospective and that whole thread, and http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.p ... ive#710669, among others.
And, on the CBB; http://conlanger.com/cbb/viewtopic.php? ... fect#33513 and its thread, and http://conlanger.com/cbb/viewtopic.php? ... fect#21047 and its thread, for instance.
One idea that was raised in the discussion I remember, (but which I can no longer find, so maybe it was pruned), was that there're constructions similar to the "retrospective", except they are to aspect as "retrospective" is to tense; or, they are to mood as "retrospective" is to tense.
For instance this contributor (whose name I've forgotten) stated that in some languages (I forget which ones), a "retrospective"-like construction is used to indicate a perfective-aspect event (that is, the speaker does not intend to discuss the internal temporal structure of the event) whose effects are relevant to an imperfective-aspect situation; perhaps a completed event whose effects have ongoing relevance.
And s/he stated that in some languages (I forget which ones), a "retrospective"-like construction is used to indicate a realis-mood situation (one whose occurrence is a matter of fact) whose effects are relevant to an irrealis-mood situation; perhaps the realis-mood "retrospective" situation's effects, affect whether or not some other situation, about which the speaker is mostly speaking, is possible; or desirable; or obligatory; or some such thing.
If those remarks are true, that is another reason for me to think calling "retrospective" an "aspect" is not universally the best idea.
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I apologize if you think this is condescending, but:
Are you absolutely sure you haven't mixed up "perfect" with "perfective"?
(Avoiding such mix-ups, and avoiding unnecessary questions about potential mix-ups, is one good reason to call this thing "retrospective" instead of "perfect".)
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Wikipedia's article screws up the use and definition of "anterior", as well as calling "perfect" an aspect, which it might not be.
"Anterior" is not correctly used in place of "perfect". They don't mean the same thing. What's perfect (I'd rather say "retrospective") is anterior, but not all that's anterior is perfect. A "perfect" verb refers to an event, whose effects are still relevant at a more-focused (or more-interesting or more-topical) time, such that the "perfect" event was anterior to the more-topical or more-focussed time.
Re: on characterizing the "perfect"
It could be easily applied to pluperfect, IMO, by changing it to "Rather than simply mentioning a past action, the pluperfect integrates its consequences into the situational context of a later past action." Similarly, I think future perfect would make a future action's consequences relevant to a (yet more) future context, but it's still basically the same thing. In that respect, I guess prospective (about to X) is sort of a reversal of future perfect - the preconditions (if you will) of the future action having an effect on the present context.Radius Solis wrote:That said, the statement is a touch on the muddy side. I might propose a clarity improvement: "Rather than simply mentioning a past action, the perfect integrates its consequences into the situational context of the speech act." (This doesn't extend so well to the pluperfect and future perfect, though.)
tl;dr - that is my intuition, too.
It's (broadly) [faɪ.ˈjuw.lɛ]
#define FEMALE
ConlangDictionary 0.3 3/15/14 (ZBB thread)
Quis vult in terra stare,
Cum possit volitare?
#define FEMALE
ConlangDictionary 0.3 3/15/14 (ZBB thread)
Quis vult in terra stare,
Cum possit volitare?
- Salmoneus
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But, dearest, the difference is that I DID read the post, and that's WHY I used exactly that formulation. The point being that you raise the definition, discard it, and then essentially arrive at the same definition again, only this time with a flaw.Radius Solis wrote:To paraphrase something you yourself once said to someone else: I refer you to the post you replied to, in which I answer your response to it.Salmoneus wrote:I think an improvement would be to say that it's for past events with present relevance. It's not just the consequences, it's present consequences - otherwise you use the pluperfect instead.
Or: I refer YOU to the post you refer me to, in which you answered your reply to my reply to it.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
I find most of these definitions too vague to evaluate. "Relevance" is particularly bad— as Radius points out, everything we say is relevant, otherwise why say it?
It might help to get down to specifics.
1. I went to Paris.
2. I was going to Paris.
3. I've gone to Paris.
There's definitely a completion aspect to (3) as opposed to (2), but it's shared with (1).
To me, (3) sounds like it's recording an accomplishment; compare "I've read Aristotle", "I've learned Chinese", "I've watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate". The simple past implies the same activity but doesn't make a big deal of it.
4. I've lived in Paris (for 10 years).
5. I lived in Paris.
Strangely, adding in the parenthetical removes the idea of completion. I think this is a special sense with a clear meaning: an action that started in the past and still continues. Compare "I've chosen the darkness", "I've always voted Socialist", "I've joined the Mormons".
6. I've done some pretty bad things.
7. I did some pretty bad things.
The meaning is about the same, but (6) seems more subjective: the speaker owns up to his responsibility. Thus it's more appropriate for an apology (the quotation is from Tiger Woods). Sentences like (4) may influence the meaning, as (6) doesn't seem to draw as sharp as line between past and present. Similarly, "I've been shot" sounds more immediate and subjective than "I was shot" or even "They're shooting me". And "You've been drinking vodka" sounds more accusatory than "You drank vodka".
8. I've got rhythm.
9. I have rhythm.
10. I've gotten rhythm.
11. I had rhythm.
First, the easy bits: 8 definitely implies continued possession unlike (11), and (10) focusses on acquisition instead (cf. "I've got the cash", I have it, vs. "I've gotten the cash", I acquired it).
I'm not sure 8 differs from (9) in anything but register— it just sounds more colloquial.
It might help to get down to specifics.
1. I went to Paris.
2. I was going to Paris.
3. I've gone to Paris.
There's definitely a completion aspect to (3) as opposed to (2), but it's shared with (1).
To me, (3) sounds like it's recording an accomplishment; compare "I've read Aristotle", "I've learned Chinese", "I've watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate". The simple past implies the same activity but doesn't make a big deal of it.
4. I've lived in Paris (for 10 years).
5. I lived in Paris.
Strangely, adding in the parenthetical removes the idea of completion. I think this is a special sense with a clear meaning: an action that started in the past and still continues. Compare "I've chosen the darkness", "I've always voted Socialist", "I've joined the Mormons".
6. I've done some pretty bad things.
7. I did some pretty bad things.
The meaning is about the same, but (6) seems more subjective: the speaker owns up to his responsibility. Thus it's more appropriate for an apology (the quotation is from Tiger Woods). Sentences like (4) may influence the meaning, as (6) doesn't seem to draw as sharp as line between past and present. Similarly, "I've been shot" sounds more immediate and subjective than "I was shot" or even "They're shooting me". And "You've been drinking vodka" sounds more accusatory than "You drank vodka".
8. I've got rhythm.
9. I have rhythm.
10. I've gotten rhythm.
11. I had rhythm.
First, the easy bits: 8 definitely implies continued possession unlike (11), and (10) focusses on acquisition instead (cf. "I've got the cash", I have it, vs. "I've gotten the cash", I acquired it).
I'm not sure 8 differs from (9) in anything but register— it just sounds more colloquial.
- Salmoneus
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But it's only sometimes RELEVANT that it's relevant. I'd say the perfect marks relevant relevance. Or rather: by saying 'it has present relevance', we're contrasting it to a present non-relevance, even if that non-relevance is only relative.zompist wrote:I find most of these definitions too vague to evaluate. "Relevance" is particularly bad— as Radius points out, everything we say is relevant, otherwise why say it?
I distrust definitions that are not vague. If they aren't vague, they're not true. There AREN'T hard-and-fast rules about the use of tenses. [Or those rules are not exhaustive][/quote]
It might help to get down to specifics.
1. I went to Paris.
2. I was going to Paris.
3. I've gone to Paris.
There's definitely a completion aspect to (3) as opposed to (2), but it's shared with (1).
To me, (3) sounds like it's recording an accomplishment; compare "I've read Aristotle", "I've learned Chinese", "I've watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate". The simple past implies the same activity but doesn't make a big deal of it.[/quote]
But some of your examples might confuse. "I've read Aristotle" is normally an experiential, rather than a perfect, although both meanings are possible. I'd say the experiential is more about accomplishment than the perfect is. "I've gone to Paris" isn't an accomplisment, it's an explanation for why you don't seem to be in New York anymore.
Going to Paris is an action with a telic state attached. "I've gone to Paris" indicates that that state still holds.
Without the date, it's interpreted as an experiential, not a perfect, so you're no longer living in Paris. So, the telic state doesn't hold. With the time reference, it can't be interpreted as an experiential anymore, so it must be a perfect. "To live somewhere" isn't telic, so its 'telic state' is just a continuence of its own state. So, you're still living in Paris.4. I've lived in Paris (for 10 years).
5. I lived in Paris.
Strangely, adding in the parenthetical removes the idea of completion. I think this is a special sense with a clear meaning: an action that started in the past and still continues. Compare "I've chosen the darkness", "I've always voted Socialist", "I've joined the Mormons".
"I've chosen the darkness" and "I've joined the Mormons" are both perfects. The telic states of each verb still apply in the present, while those of "I chose the darkness" and "I joined the Mormons" needn't - in that case, you may no longer be chosing the darkness, and you may no longer be a Mormon.
"I've always voted Socialist" is an experiential. Past indicatives with "always" or "never" or the like require the experiential unless there is a qualification, and the experiential is superficially the same as the perfect.
[So, we can't say **"I never voted Socialist" unless it's followed by "until X", or follows "what happened when X" or "without Ying" or the like. Likewise, we can't say **"I've never gone to Paris", only "I've never been to Paris", unless it's qualified, as in "I've never gone to Paris without an umbrella" or "I've never gone to Paris in the Spring".]
"I've done some pretty bad things" - the telic state of the action remains - in this case one part of that state is being guilty. Well, OK, 'telic' is the wrong word. "Immediate result state", perhaps. Anyway, in the other case, the guilt does not remain. For a more straightforward example:6. I've done some pretty bad things.
7. I did some pretty bad things.
The meaning is about the same, but (6) seems more subjective: the speaker owns up to his responsibility. Thus it's more appropriate for an apology (the quotation is from Tiger Woods). Sentences like (4) may influence the meaning, as (6) doesn't seem to draw as sharp as line between past and present.
6a. I've eaten some bad food. - the immediate result state of eating is that the food is in you, so you're likely to be sick.
I don't think you need to bring in subjectivity or morality. In the first case, the immediate result state of being shot is that you're bleeding - "I was shot" suggests the immediate result state has passed (you're either better or you've progressed to slow death on a hospital bed). In the second case, the immediate result of drinking vodka is being drunk. However, there is a second meaning here, as a continuous experiential.Similarly, "I've been shot" sounds more immediate and subjective than "I was shot" or even "They're shooting me". And "You've been drinking vodka" sounds more accusatory than "You drank vodka".
To me, this is about the weird issues of 'got' and 'gotten', which are in flux for me and vary a lot with dialect.8. I've got rhythm.
9. I have rhythm.
10. I've gotten rhythm.
11. I had rhythm.
First, the easy bits: 8 definitely implies continued possession unlike (11), and (10) focusses on acquisition instead (cf. "I've got the cash", I have it, vs. "I've gotten the cash", I acquired it).
I'm not sure 8 differs from (9) in anything but register— it just sounds more colloquial.
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So, my summary theory:
1. Verbs are either states or actions that result immediately in states - particular states, not any old consequences. Call this, and the states of statives, the Core State.
2. The perfect is used where the Core State endures into the present, but the action occured or the State was entered before the present.
However, there's also a superficially identical form, differing only for the verb 'to go', which is an experiential. There are instantive and stative forms of the experiential. So:
3. The experiential is used to indicate a past event that has salient present non-physical consequences upon the mental or social resources of the subject.
4. The experiential is demanded for past events qualified with 'always' or 'never' (and maybe other things) unless another qualification is offered. I think this is because these qualifiers say "I'm not talking about a particular time period", and hence demand that we be talking about the present, via an experiential, unless we qualify the qualifiers ourselves.
Examples of experientials:
"You've been drinking vodka!" (when I'm not drunk, but may be an alcoholic)
"I've made one fortune, I can make another!" (when the first fortune has been lost)
"I've watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate"
All three are different from normal perfect semantics, but match my proposed experiential semantics.
Note also that the experiential seems to require an object. "You've been drinking vodka" or "I've eaten eels" can be read as either perfects or as experientials, but "You've been drinking" and "I've eaten" can only be read as perfects.
Anyway, I think that much of the confusion is that there are two different things here that just happen to look the same in most cases (and in most cases context can tell the difference - it may be that we've developed the explicit difference for 'to go' precisely because it's one of the few verbs where both perfect and experiential are commonplace), but which have different rules of usage.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
Re: on characterizing the "perfect"
well, in that example, you've completed a lot (presumably of separate tasks that may be related), and you have more yet to do.Radius Solis wrote:* In the LCK Mark characterizes it as basically conveying completion. This has several flaws, most notably 1. you can use it with incomplete actions ("I have done a lot but there's still more to go!")
so..."present-perfect & to-be-perfect-in-future"?
MadBrain is a genius.
If I may, I want to interject here with an interesting use of "before". Compare:I don't think you need to bring in subjectivity or morality. In the first case, the immediate result state of being shot is that you're bleeding - "I was shot" suggests the immediate result state has passed (you're either better or you've progressed to slow death on a hospital bed). In the second case, the immediate result of drinking vodka is being drunk. However, there is a second meaning here, as a continuous experiential.
1) I was shot. - Can't refer to the immediate result state of the action, but only the later result.
2) I've been shot. - Can refer to either the immediate result or the later result, though usually the latter.
3) I've been shot before. - Can only refer to the later result.
Interesting how a normally temporal preposition turned into an adverb that can do this. Also, it never fails to throw off non-native speakers that I know.
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You might want to check out some of the formal semantics literature on aspect, this comes up quite a bit. I believe the sort of generalization that they have is that if you have some sort of plurality of events that constitute a non-singular event (e.g. running, in which parts constitute running as well) then the perfect is sort of saying that the latest bound on the plural event includes the reference interval of time with some portion prior to that interval. There's undoubtedly more to it, and more is being discovered every day. One of my fellow grad students (Alexis Wellwood, in case you're interested in looking up her stuff; she's working a lot on this sort of thing recently) apparently found a previously unknown phenomena going on with "have" in certain infinitival complement verbs, where "V to V" means one thing, but "V to have V" means another, maybe different in voice or who knows what.
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