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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:47 am
by Whimemsz
Cockroach wrote:Neqitan wrote:Nortaneous wrote:does it even have the { > e@ / _(m n) shift? because that's pretty much universal in america as far as I know
Yes, it has it.
?????????
I must be seriously misunderstanding something. I don't do this, and I don't know of anyone, local or not, who does.
See
here. It's pretty common in North American English, though I don't have it (less common, and part of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, is the change
{ > e@ in all environments)
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:49 am
by Jipí
I had nothing better to do during the last 1½ days without internet...
I grew up in the Waldeck region in Northern Hesse, Germany, which is just north of the Benrath line historically. My dad is from there, my mother grew up in the southwesternmost tip of Germany (yeah, Alemannic), however her parents are from the Ruhr area. That way I don't think I have a too distinct dialect, other than more or less "generic North-of-Weißwurstäquator". Here are my notes:
Code: Select all
- Basic sound inventory (in native words, same as Standard):
p t k p͡f t͡s k͡s b d g m n ŋ f v s z ʃ ç x~χ ʁ h l j (ʔ)
iː ɪ yː ʏ eː ɛː ɛ øː œ ə ɐ äː ɑ̈ oː ɔ uː ʊ
ɑe ɔʏ ɑo
p, t, k → pʰ, tʰ, kʰ / _ UNLESS s_, ʃ_, _#
b, d, g → p, t, k / _#
r → ʁ / _V; r → ɐ / V_
s → ʃ / #_t, #_p (basically, German had #_C)
- Apocope of final -ə in 1SG PRES IND (very common)
- p͡f → f / #_
Pfanne p͡fɑnə → fɑnə 'pan'
Pferd p͡fɛɐd → fɛɐt 'horse'
Pforte p͡fɔɐtə → fɔɐtə 'portal'
Pfote p͡foːtə → foːtə 'paw'
Pfütze p͡fʏt͡sə → fʏt͡sə 'puddle'
- ç/ʃ distinct
- ɑɐ → aː (also e.g. fahren faːʁən → faːn 'to drive, to go by (vehicle)')
- ɛː-eː merger (in very casual speech)
- iːɐ → ɪɐ /_ UNLESS _#
Hirn hɪɐn 'brain'
Kirche kɪɐçə 'church'
Kirsche kɪɐʃə 'cherry'
Pfirsich fɪɐzɪç 'peach'
vierter fɪɐtɐ 'fourth'
vierzig fɪɐt͡sɪç 'forty'
hier hiːɐ 'here'
mir miːɐ 'to/for me'
vier fiːɐ 'four'
wir viːɐ 'we'
- l → j / _ç (passim)
solche zɔlçə → zɔjçə (→ zɔʏçə?) 'such'
welche vɛlçə → vɛjçə 'which'
Probably only in those two common words
- mal maːl 'times, once' → maː (BUT Mahl maːl 'meal')
- Shortening of vowels in stressed syllables in very casual language (passim)
es gibt ɛs giːpt → əs gɪpt 'there is'
Fahrrad faːʁaːt → fɑʁɑt 'bicycle'
Krümel kʁyːml̩ → kʁʏml̩ 'crumb'
liegt liːkt → lɪçt 'lies'
Rad raːt → rɑt 'wheel'
rüber ʁyːbɐ → ʁʏbɐ 'to over here/there'
Tag taːk → tɑχ 'day'
Vater faːtɐ → fɑtɐ 'father'
- final g acts like x (passim)
Berg bɛɐk → bɛɐç 'moutain'
Tag taːk → tɑχ 'day'
Weg veːk → veːç 'way'
Zug t͡suːk → t͡sʊχ 'train, draught'
-ig → -ɪç
- division of da+preposition
davon wusste ich nichts 'I didn't know about that'
→ da hab ich nix von gewusst
darüber sprechen wir nicht 'We don't talk about that'
→ da sprechmer nich drüber
- preposition + article fusing
der* die* das den dem
an anner anne [ans] an'n [am]
auf aufer aufe [aufs] auf'n auf'm
außer außer's außer'n außer'm
bei bei's bei'n [beim]
in inner inne [ins] in'n [im]
ohne ohne's ohne'n ohne'm
mit mitter mit'n mit'm
vor vor's vor'n [vorm]
zu [zur] zu'n [zum]
Those occuring in the standard language are bracketed out.
*) cliticizing only in very casual speech except for those marked Standard, otherwise:
der → dɐ
die → də
- verb + pronoun:
2sg du → -ə (machste 'do/make', haste 'have', kannste 'can', biste 'be')
3sg.m er → -ɐ (machter, hatter, kanner, isser)
3sg.f sie → -zə (macht se, hat se, kann se, isse)
3sg.n es → -s (macht's, hat's, kann's, isses)
1pl wir → -mɐ (machmer, hammer, kömmer, simmer)
2pl ihr → -ɐ (machter, habter, könnter, seiter)
- verbs of position form their perfect with 'haben' (Standard):
gelegen haben 'has lain'
gesessen haben 'has sat'
gestanden haben 'has stood'
...
- Lack of a special term for the last bit of a loaf of bread?!
- winken → gewunken haben 'to have waved o.'s hand'
- 'n ← denn as some kind of question particle on the verb or its object:
Was hat'n der vor? 'What's he gonna do?'
Was hat der'n vor?
Was is'n das? 'What's that?'
*Was is das'n?
- Negators (rather common)
nein → nee/nö 'no'
nicht → nich 'not'
nichts → nix 'nothing'
- "halt" and "eben" coexist (halt as a filling word)
- "nu" and "jetzt" (both 'now') coexist, though "nu" appears more commonly in either imperatives or when expressing derogatory stance
Nu komm! - Come on!
Was willer denn nu wieder? - What's he bugging about now?
- Shortening of indefinite article (very common)
ein → n
eine → ne
einen → nen
einem → nem
einer → ner
- No distinction between hin- 'to there' and her- 'to here' with prepositions (very common)
hinauf, herauf → rauf
hinaus, heraus → raus
hinein, herein → rein
hinüber, herüber → rüber
hinunter, herunter → runter
- Demonstrative pronouns (common)
dieser → der hier 'this'
diese → die hier
dieses → das hier
jener → der da 'that'
jene → die da
jenes → das da
Unlike English, 'this here X' translates as 'das X hier'
- Going to work - zur Arbeit gehen
at work - auf der Arbeit (at your job), an/bei der Arbeit / am Arbeiten (working)
- because of X - wegen dem X (DAT, not GEN)
- because ... - 'weil SVO' acceptable
- Various vocabulary with regional differences from DTV Atlas Deutsche Sprache (Standard → Regiolect)
Bauchschmerzen 'stomach ache' → Bauchweh
Kopfschmerzen 'headache' → Kopfweh/-schmerzen
s. beeilen 'to hurry up' → s. beeilen, hinne machen
voriges Jahr 'last year' → letztes Jahr
dieses Jahr 'this year' → dies(es) Jahr
(afternoon meal) → Kaffeetrinken
Nachmittag 'afternoon' → Nammittag
(2nd day of week) 'Tuesday' → Dienstag
(3rd day of week) 'Wednesday' → Mittwoch
(4th day of week) 'Thursday' → Donnerstag
(6th day of week) 'Saturday' → Samstag
Ostern 'Easter' → Ostern
Frühling 'spring' → Frühjahr
Schreiner, Tischler 'carpenter' → Schreiner
Metzger, Fleischer 'butcher' → Metzger
pflügen 'to plow' → pflügen, (úm)ackern
klopfen 'to knock' → (kloppen)
Karotte 'carrot' → Möhre
Rotkohl, Rotkraut 'red cabbage' → Rotkraut
Sperling 'sparrow' → Spatz
Zündholz 'matchstick' → Streichholz
Topf 'pot' → Topf, Pott
(quarter to) → viertel vor
(quarter past) → viertel nach
fegen, kehren 'to sweep' → kehren [kɛɐn]
gucken 'to look' → kucken
Traktor 'tractor' → Trecker
Schaufel 'shovel' → Schaufel, Schippe
Harke, Rechen 'rake' → Harke
Negerkuss (a type of candy) → Mohrenkopf
Orange, Apfelsine 'orange' → Orange
Porree, Lauch 'leek' → Lauch
Senf, Mostrich 'mustard' → Senf [zɛɱp̪͡f]
Brötchen, Schrippe, ... 'roll' → Brötchen
Krümel 'crumb' → Krümmel
(second breakfast, e.g. at work) → Frühstück
Berliner (kind of pastry) → Kreppel
Stechmücke 'mosquito' → Mücke
Fersen 'heels' → Hacken
(greeting during the day) → (Guten) Tag
(at home) → zu Hause
(not anymore) → nich mehr
(plastics) → Plastik
(first) → erster [-s.t-]
(1st person plural) → wir
(people) → Leute
(pl. of Wagen 'cart') → Wagen
(hit) → gehauen
(he sleeps) → er schläft
(to sell for) → verkaufen für
(there is) → es gibt
(... that) → ..., dass [ɑ]
For the others listed (e.g. Kartoffel) I have the term used in German Standard German.
verprügeln 'to beat up' → verkloppen
der/das Mus 'mash' → das Mus
(1st month of the year) → Januar
nicht wahr? (question tag) → ne?
- "Bein" is the complete leg, i.e. shank (Oberschenkel), calf (Wade/Unterschenkel), foot (Fuß) (with toes (Zehen)); "Arm" likewise.
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:16 pm
by Travis B.
Whimemsz wrote:Cockroach wrote:Neqitan wrote:Nortaneous wrote:does it even have the { > e@ / _(m n) shift? because that's pretty much universal in america as far as I know
Yes, it has it.
?????????
I must be seriously misunderstanding something. I don't do this, and I don't know of anyone, local or not, who does.
See
here. It's pretty common in North American English, though I don't have it (less common, and part of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, is the change
{ > e@ in all environments)
Note that the NCVS does not necessarily involve that particular change with regard to the fate of historical /æ/; for instance, my own dialect, which has the NCVS normally has [ɛ̞] for such, and may have [ɛ] for such in more informal speech, particularly when unstressed, and in some idiolects [e̯ɛ̞] or even [i̯ɛ̞] can be found for such when strongly stressed.
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:15 pm
by Skomakar'n
Today, I found myself saying "Eg hev fåt høyra at eg høyrst meira norsk(e)r enn svænsk(e)r ut. Stemmer det?". Standard Swedish would express and spell this as "Jag ha(ve)r fått höra att jag låter mera norsk än svensk. Stämmer det?"
These both mean "I've gotten to hear that I sound more Norwegian than Swedish. Is that true?"
The differences are that I add the masculine suffixes -er to the adjectives for the nationalities, and that I use höras ut (lit. "to be heard out"), rather than låta, more or less corresponding to the English word.
Then there is, of course the pronunciation:
Standard: [jɑ: hɑ: fɔt 'hø:ra t jɑ: 'lo:tə 'me:ra nɔʂk ɛn svɛnsk. 'stɛmə ɖɛ:]
Me: [ɛ:ɪ ɛ fɶ 'hø:jrɑ ɛ:ɪ højʂt 'mɛ:ɪrɑ 'nøʂkXr ɛY 'sʲvɛnsʲkXr ʉ:t. 'ʃtɛmə ɖɛ:]
I wrote X in there, because I'm still unsure of what I actually pronounce there. I can't tell for sure if it's any of [ə i ɪ ʏ]. I think I have at least established that there is, for a fact, a vowel there, even though it's often close to unheard.
I wrote Y, because I can't determine whether it's any of [ɲ ŋ jn ɪn], or something else, at the moment. I'll keep trying.
Another thing that I have noticed this week, which I haven't thought of before, is that vowel length, at least at the occasion I came to think of, makes an important difference for me:
stjerna ['stjɛ:ɳɑ] "(a) star"
stjerna ['stjɛ:ɳɑ:] "the star"
Also, in Standard Swedish, the cluster <stj> is /ɧ/, and in some dialects, it's any of [ʃ ʂ]. Like you can see above, I just pronounce it the way it's spelled, just like in Norwegian, Danish, Icelandic and Faroese.
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:06 pm
by Cockroach
Travis B. wrote:Whimemsz wrote:Cockroach wrote:Neqitan wrote:Nortaneous wrote:does it even have the { > e@ / _(m n) shift? because that's pretty much universal in america as far as I know
Yes, it has it.
?????????
I must be seriously misunderstanding something. I don't do this, and I don't know of anyone, local or not, who does.
See
here. It's pretty common in North American English, though I don't have it (less common, and part of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, is the change
{ > e@ in all environments)
Note that the NCVS does not necessarily involve that particular change with regard to the fate of historical /æ/; for instance, my own dialect, which has the NCVS normally has [ɛ̞] for such, and may have [ɛ] for such in more informal speech, particularly when unstressed, and in some idiolects [e̯ɛ̞] or even [i̯ɛ̞] can be found for such when strongly stressed.
That might be it.I've just noticed that, while I don't think I go for the lull fledged [eə], I do raise the 'a' before. Thank you.
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:45 pm
by Zaris
My dialect, or more so my idiolect, isn't too different from the standard.
Since I live in the south I turn [ai] into [a:]. The only time I do this really when I say bye. [bai] >>> [ba:]
My [r] is retroflex. But, I think a lot of Americans have retroflex [r].
Sometimes I'll voice the end of my words. For instance, when I say Thank you [Teink yu] ::> [Teing yu]
I think I have a bit of a nasal voice as well.
I tend to switch switch my Subjects and Objects around. Can't recall any examples ATM.
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:53 pm
by Whimemsz
Remember to use [ square brackets ] for phones!
Zaris wrote:Since I live in the south I turn /ai/ into /a:/. The only time I do this really when I say bye. /bai/ /ba:/
I wouldn't say that's really an example of the Southern /ai/ > [a:] change. I actually know several people who say [ba:] or [b{:] for "bye" (I live in Houston), and none of them otherwise have a Texan or Southern accent (except for the presence of "y'all", which is by far the most common dialectal feature of the area). One of the people who does it is actually Canadian, and she also has Canadian Raising (/ai au/ > [@i @u]).
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:01 pm
by Zaris
Whimemsz wrote:Remember to use [ square brackets ] for phones!
Zaris wrote:Since I live in the south I turn /ai/ into /a:/. The only time I do this really when I say bye. /bai/ /ba:/
I wouldn't say that's really an example of the Southern /ai/ > [a:] change. I actually know several people who say [ba:] or [b{:] for "bye" (I live in Houston), and none of them otherwise have a Texan or Southern accent (except for the presence of "y'all", which is by far the most common dialectal feature of the area). One of the people who does it is actually Canadian, and she also has Canadian Raising (/ai au/ > [@i @u]).
sorry about the brackets
I shall edit them appropriately
And Hola from San Antonio you damn Houstonites!
y'all should be standard, if you ask me. It might not be like other English contractions accompanied by a vowel, but it's a contraction none the less!
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:34 pm
by Nortaneous
Am I the only person who has [a] for /ai/ instead of [a:]? (also, short /ai/ ([@i] or whatever) never collapses)
although now that I think of it, [a] pretty much only shows up in words like "I"
Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:04 am
by benadam
Hmm, I don't know if you'd call it a dialect, but my accent (I'm from London) can vary a lot, depending on who I'm talking to. It can be anywhere from
almost Cockney/London-chavvish to
almost R.P., though it never actually reaches either extreme. I'm usually a bit nearer to RP, though (especially when talking to easily-impressed Americans
)
(OK, you can now go beck to talking about Scandinavian dialects)
Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:14 am
by Spandaux
Can tell that your dialect is a lot like Norwegian
Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:15 am
by Spandaux
benadam wrote:Hmm, I don't know if you'd call it a dialect, but my accent (I'm from London) can vary a lot, depending on who I'm talking to. It can be anywhere from
almost Cockney/London-chavvish to
almost R.P., though it never actually reaches either extreme. I'm usually a bit nearer to RP, though (especially when talking to easily-impressed Americans
)
(OK, you can now go beck to talking about Scandinavian dialects)
Y' ORLROIT MAY'? 'OWS IT GOIN'?
Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:23 pm
by Yng
Ahh, glottal stopping. That's something that changes depending on what register I'm using. Sometimes I have nothing but initial [t], sometimes I have no [ʔ] at all.
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:48 am
by Skomakar'n
I love, love, love English with glo'al stops. I can't resist using them myself when speaking English.
I made a small comparison between my personal pronouns and those in Standard Swedish. My idiolect above, and Standard Swedish below:
As you can see, accusative and dative are merged in Standard Swedish, and Swedish inflects its singular third person not only for masculine, feminine and neuter, but also for the
common gender; myself, I just use either the feminine or the masculine one depending on the word. I do a tiny gender difference in the plural third person. The pronunciation is different of most pronouns.
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:05 pm
by maıráí
I think English with the glottal stops in place of t's and things sounds very...European.
I guess maybe when I was little I might've had more Texas in me, but it's been 'smoothed' out over the years.
Y'all, you all, you guys, and all possessive forms you can think up for those,, are used.
'Y'all are dumb' and 'You guys are dumb' but 'You are all dumb' is how that one goes. Sometimes 'You all are all dumb', which may or may not be stressing how dumb everyone is.
Er... and excessive use of contractions. I mean, EXCESSIVE. For instance, "might've" , "can't've", should'nt've and so on. The 've may be "have" or "of". The difference is whether it's a whole syllable or not... schwa+v is of, and just a quick v sound is have.
My R's are never retroflex, I think. And I do pronounce my R's.
I'm pretty sure I've got a nasal voice, but I'm not positive.
Er. And if none of that made sense, according to a quiz, I speak 72.5% General American, 22.5% Yank, and 10% Dixie.
[[I plan on editing this post when I learn more.]]
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:13 pm
by Skomakar'n
So how do you pronounce them? [r]?
---
I noticed today that I have [w], by the way.
Since I almost never pronounce [v] unless initial, this often causes a [w] to appear to make the transition between vowels smoother.
Standard Swedish: <prova> /"pru:va/ (to try)
My idiolect: ["pru:wA]
I previously just assumed I said ["pru:A], but there is clearly a [w] in there, I'm now aware of.
I also was made aware something I really haven't thought of. It was pointed out to me. I have a diphthong I didn't know I have, and I think it has slipped by me because it isn't one of the historical diphthongs; in some places, I pronounce <y> as [2y)].
I do have this diphthong in other places, so I don't mean I have a different diphthong sound I wasn't aware of; I just didn't know I had it in these, not etymologically justified, places.
For example, I pronounce <fy> (ew; yuck) as [f2y)].
I barely have any long <y>'s of this kind, so I'm having a hard time to find any examples; the short ones I pronounce [2]; <rygg> (back [of the body]) is [R2g].
I also noticed about a month ago that [z Z dZ] do appear, but I'm not sure if these are just sloppy pronunciation rather than sounds that are actually in my idiolect. I said something like <är det som en station?> (is it like a station?) as something along the lines of [E: d`E: z2m aI) "stAZu:n].
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 9:29 pm
by Lleu
The only thing I've noticed about my idiolect is that I say "presently" to mean "soon (in the next few minutes or so)", contrasted with "soon", meaning "at some future point within the next up to a few months".
When speaking Spanish, I have lleísmo and seseo, and I distinguish vosotros and Ustedes (which, in writing, I always capitalize, because that is how I was taught, I swear, although I don't know who taught me that; I also have taken Unamuno's example, not necessarily the best, I realize, in accenting dió and vió, even though we were taught not to accent them).
When speaking French, I use some of the Québec vocabulary I picked up this summer (like déjeuner, dîner, and souper for petit déjeuner, déjeuner and dîner). I also affricate /t d/ to [ts dz] before , and my vowels are I think more Québécois than Metropolitan (e.g. my /9~/ is somewhere between [9y~] and [2y~], although I think actually my /E~/ is more like [{E~]).
That's what I can think of offhand.
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:57 pm
by Viktor77
I realise /i/ as closer, though a tad lower than /1/. My /E/ is /6/, and my /A/ is /a/ (basically the features of the Northern Cities Shift). I nasalise syllabic /n/s as well, and some of my final /t/s become /?/s. I rather like my standard midwestern dialect with hints of Canadian Rising. Also, I say pop, which, as Bricka would say, is how the LORD intended it to be.
Vortex can fill you in on the rest, he's much smarter than I.
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:03 pm
by Skomakar'n
Viktor77 wrote:I realise /i/ as closer, though a tad lower than /1/. My /E/ is /3/, and my /A/ is /a/. I nasalise syllabic /n/s as well, and some of my final /t/s become /?/s. I rather like my standard midwestern dialect with hints of Canadian shift. Also, I say pop, which, as Bricka would say, is how the LORD intended it to be.
Vortex can fill you in on the rest, he's much smarter than I.
Hahaha! When I started reading this, I though you were talking about your Swedish idiolect, and I was all like "wow, this sounds awesome; I've got to ask him to record a sample!".
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:05 pm
by Viktor77
Skomakar'n wrote:Hahaha! When I started reading this, I though you were talking about your Swedish idiolect, and I was all like "wow, this sounds awesome; I've got to ask him to record a sample!".
Well, naturally my English is going to be brought into my Swedish, shall I proceed?
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:06 pm
by Skomakar'n
Viktor77 wrote:Skomakar'n wrote:Hahaha! When I started reading this, I though you were talking about your Swedish idiolect, and I was all like "wow, this sounds awesome; I've got to ask him to record a sample!".
Well, naturally my English is going to be brought into my Swedish, shall I proceed?
I'd love to hear about your Swedish.
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:13 pm
by Rui
Viktor77 wrote:I nasalise syllabic /n/s as well
That doesn't mean anything. "Nasalized" means the air flows from your lungs through your nasal cavity. And so does "nasal consonant". So a "nasalized nasal consonant" is redundant.
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:22 pm
by Viktor77
Skomakar'n wrote:I'd love to hear about your Swedish.
Please don't make fun of my terrible Swedish.
http://host-a.net/Viktor77/swedish3.wma
The stupid static is my computer humming away mindlessly.
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:42 pm
by Skomakar'n
Viktor77 wrote:Skomakar'n wrote:I'd love to hear about your Swedish.
Please don't make fun of my terrible Swedish.
http://host-a.net/Viktor77/swedish3.wma
The stupid static is my computer humming away mindlessly.
Din förbannade usling!
I've always thought you were Swedish!
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:49 pm
by Viktor77
Skomakar'n wrote:I've always thought you were Swedish!
So tell me, Doctor, how bad was it?