No latin names of month...

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Whimemsz
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Re: No latin names of month...

Post by Whimemsz »

Well shoot, I haven't added the Ojibwe months yet! The traditional calendar had twelve lunar months, plus a thirteenth leap-month but I'm not sure of the specifics on how this latter worked. The names vary quite a lot by location/dialect, so this is not representative of all Ojibwe-speaking communities (and because the traditional months didn't line up exactly with the European ones, the equivalencies given to English month names are approximate):

January: Gichi-manidoo-giizis ("great spirit moon")
February: Namebini-giizis ("sucker moon")
March: Onaabani-giizis ("crust on the snow moon")
April: Iskigamizige-giizis ("sugaring moon")
May: Waabigwanii-giizis ("flower moon")
June: Ode'imini-giizis ("strawberry moon")
July: Aabita-niibino-giizis ("middle of the summer moon")
August: Manoominike-giizis ("ricing moon")
September: Waatebagaa-giizis ("bright leaves moon")
October: Binaakwii-giizis ("falling leaves moon")
November: Gashkadino-giizis ("water freezes over moon")
December: Manidoo-giizisoons ("little spirit moon")

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L'alphabētarium
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Re: No latin names of month...

Post by L'alphabētarium »

Hlewagastiz wrote:...because the natural Greek pronunciation (ever since) didn't tolerated the sequence [mv]; Greeks always said [mb] or just [b] (Southern Modern Greek). Greek "savants" consider sequences such as [mv], [nδ] as more elevated...


No, it's not.
Ever since the early middle ages it's been /ɱv/ with the [m] changing to a labio-dental to be able to be pronounced preceding [v].
There are hundreds of examples in Modern Greek: βόμβα /'voɱva/ "bomb", κύμβαλο /ˈciɱvalο/ "cymbal", άμβωνας /'aɱvonas/ "pulpit", etc...
There's no [b] or [mb] in there.

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finlay
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Re: No latin names of month...

Post by finlay »

L'alphabētarium wrote:
Hlewagastiz wrote:...because the natural Greek pronunciation (ever since) didn't tolerated the sequence [mv]; Greeks always said [mb] or just [b] (Southern Modern Greek). Greek "savants" consider sequences such as [mv], [nδ] as more elevated...


No, it's not.
Ever since the early middle ages it's been [ɱv] with the /m/ changing to a labio-dental to be able to be pronounced preceding [v].
There are hundreds of examples in Modern Greek: βόμβα ['voɱva] "bomb", κύμβαλο [ˈciɱvalο] "cymbal", άμβωνας ['aɱvonas] "pulpit", etc...
There's no [b] or [mb] in there.

stop mixing up slashes and brackets. (rule of thumb: brackets should be the default, slashes only if something is theoretically distinct, and ɱ basically never is a phoneme so)

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clawgrip
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Re: No latin names of month...

Post by clawgrip »

finlay I thought of you when I read L'alphabētarium's post.

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Ser
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Re: No latin names of month...

Post by Ser »

Somebody has to take care over people learning to distinguish phonemes from phones. I commend and applaud finlay for his efforts during all these years.

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L'alphabētarium
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Re: No latin names of month...

Post by L'alphabētarium »

finlay wrote:stop mixing up slashes and brackets. (rule of thumb: brackets should be the default, slashes only if something is theoretically distinct...)


OK, you're right I need to start learning how to use these, but,

finlay wrote:and ɱ basically never is a phoneme...


Hwat?!

Thry
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Re: No latin names of month...

Post by Thry »

It's almost always an allophone of /m/ or /n/; and so it doesn't contrast with them.

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Izambri
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Re: No latin names of month...

Post by Izambri »

But you can use it as a phoneme in one if your conlangs, L'alphabētarium. No problem.
Un llapis mai dibuixa sense una mà.

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Re: No latin names of month...

Post by Jipí »

And contrast it with /m/ for the kicks, even though the difference is barely audible?
/me slaps Izambri around a bit with a large trout.

(Yes, I know,
Wikipedia wrote:A phonemic /ɱ/ has been reported for the Kukuya (Kukwa) dialect of Teke, where it contrasts with /m, mpf, mbv/ and is "accompanied by strong protrusion of both lips". It is [ɱʷ] before /a/ and [ɱ] before /i/ and /e/, perhaps because labialization is constrained by the spread front vowels; it does not occur before back (rounded) vowels. (Paulian, Christiane (1975), Le Kukuya Langue Teke du Congo: phonologie, classes nominales, Peeters Publishers)
, but:
ibid. wrote:Although commonly appearing in languages, it is overwhelmingly present non-phonemically, largely restricted to appear before labiodental consonants like [f] and [v].
)
Last edited by Jipí on Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Izambri
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Re: No latin names of month...

Post by Izambri »

One of the Hellesan subdialects contrasts (or contrasted) /m/ and /ɱ/. The first is the sound of <m> while the other is for <v> (previously was /v/).
Un llapis mai dibuixa sense una mà.

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Ser
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Re: No latin names of month...

Post by Ser »

John Wells says that the IPA adopted [ɱ] without even knowing of a language that used it distinctively, making it quite an exception to the principles of the IPA. What's another language that has it as a phoneme different from /m/?

http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.ca/2012/03/u.html
Last edited by Ser on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jipí
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Re: No latin names of month...

Post by Jipí »

As we all know, Hellesan is a natural language spoken on the Iberian Peninsula that Izambri has been researching for a whole number of years now. There were rumors that he might've made it up, but of course this is an outrageous claim without any foundation in facts. And if a dialect of Hellesan can have a /m : ɱ/ distinction, so can your conlang if you're striving for naturalism. At least that's two languages with a reported /m : ɱ/ distinction now.

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Re: No latin names of month...

Post by Thry »

However, most of his research is in his native tongue, Basque, which explains the scarcety of material in English.

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