zompist bboard

a congress of convoluted conworldery
It is currently Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:50 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:21 pm 
Visanom
Visanom
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 4:56 pm
Posts: 6800
Location: Gimaamaa onibaaganing
Well shoot, I haven't added the Ojibwe months yet! The traditional calendar had twelve lunar months, plus a thirteenth leap-month but I'm not sure of the specifics on how this latter worked. The names vary quite a lot by location/dialect, so this is not representative of all Ojibwe-speaking communities (and because the traditional months didn't line up exactly with the European ones, the equivalencies given to English month names are approximate):

January: Gichi-manidoo-giizis ("great spirit moon")
February: Namebini-giizis ("sucker moon")
March: Onaabani-giizis ("crust on the snow moon")
April: Iskigamizige-giizis ("sugaring moon")
May: Waabigwanii-giizis ("flower moon")
June: Ode'imini-giizis ("strawberry moon")
July: Aabita-niibino-giizis ("middle of the summer moon")
August: Manoominike-giizis ("ricing moon")
September: Waatebagaa-giizis ("bright leaves moon")
October: Binaakwii-giizis ("falling leaves moon")
November: Gashkadino-giizis ("water freezes over moon")
December: Manidoo-giizisoons ("little spirit moon")


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:09 am 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:30 pm
Posts: 162
Hlewagastiz wrote:
...because the natural Greek pronunciation (ever since) didn't tolerated the sequence [mv]; Greeks always said [mb] or just [b] (Southern Modern Greek). Greek "savants" consider sequences such as [mv], [nδ] as more elevated...


No, it's not.
Ever since the early middle ages it's been /ɱv/ with the [m] changing to a labio-dental to be able to be pronounced preceding [v].
There are hundreds of examples in Modern Greek: βόμβα /'voɱva/ "bomb", κύμβαλο /ˈciɱvalο/ "cymbal", άμβωνας /'aɱvonas/ "pulpit", etc...
There's no [b] or [mb] in there.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:22 am 
Osän
Osän
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Posts: 15771
Location: Tokyo
L'alphabētarium wrote:
Hlewagastiz wrote:
...because the natural Greek pronunciation (ever since) didn't tolerated the sequence [mv]; Greeks always said [mb] or just [b] (Southern Modern Greek). Greek "savants" consider sequences such as [mv], [nδ] as more elevated...


No, it's not.
Ever since the early middle ages it's been [ɱv] with the /m/ changing to a labio-dental to be able to be pronounced preceding [v].
There are hundreds of examples in Modern Greek: βόμβα ['voɱva] "bomb", κύμβαλο [ˈciɱvalο] "cymbal", άμβωνας ['aɱvonas] "pulpit", etc...
There's no [b] or [mb] in there.

stop mixing up slashes and brackets. (rule of thumb: brackets should be the default, slashes only if something is theoretically distinct, and ɱ basically never is a phoneme so)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:32 am 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:21 am
Posts: 2730
Location: Tokyo
finlay I thought of you when I read L'alphabētarium's post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:42 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:55 am
Posts: 2834
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia / Colombie Britannique, Canada
Somebody has to take care over people learning to distinguish phonemes from phones. I commend and applaud finlay for his efforts during all these years.

_________________
ZBB Conlang Index (check first post)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:37 am 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:30 pm
Posts: 162
finlay wrote:
stop mixing up slashes and brackets. (rule of thumb: brackets should be the default, slashes only if something is theoretically distinct...)


OK, you're right I need to start learning how to use these, but,

finlay wrote:
and ɱ basically never is a phoneme...


Hwat?!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:46 am 
Sumerul
Sumerul

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:15 pm
Posts: 4090
Location: Spain
It's almost always an allophone of /m/ or /n/; and so it doesn't contrast with them.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:39 am 
Visanom
Visanom
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:27 pm
Posts: 6129
Location: Catalonia
But you can use it as a phoneme in one if your conlangs, L'alphabētarium. No problem.

_________________
Un llapis mai dibuixa sense una mà.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:59 am 
Šriftom
Šriftom
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 1:48 pm
Posts: 7905
Location: Litareng, Keynami
And contrast it with /m/ for the kicks, even though the difference is barely audible?
/me slaps Izambri around a bit with a large trout.

(Yes, I know,
Wikipedia wrote:
A phonemic /ɱ/ has been reported for the Kukuya (Kukwa) dialect of Teke, where it contrasts with /m, mpf, mbv/ and is "accompanied by strong protrusion of both lips". It is [ɱʷ] before /a/ and [ɱ] before /i/ and /e/, perhaps because labialization is constrained by the spread front vowels; it does not occur before back (rounded) vowels. (Paulian, Christiane (1975), Le Kukuya Langue Teke du Congo: phonologie, classes nominales, Peeters Publishers)
, but:
ibid. wrote:
Although commonly appearing in languages, it is overwhelmingly present non-phonemically, largely restricted to appear before labiodental consonants like [f] and [v].
)


Last edited by Jipí on Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:06 am 
Visanom
Visanom
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:27 pm
Posts: 6129
Location: Catalonia
One of the Hellesan subdialects contrasts (or contrasted) /m/ and /ɱ/. The first is the sound of <m> while the other is for <v> (previously was /v/).

_________________
Un llapis mai dibuixa sense una mà.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:24 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:55 am
Posts: 2834
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia / Colombie Britannique, Canada
John Wells says that the IPA adopted [ɱ] without even knowing of a language that used it distinctively, making it quite an exception to the principles of the IPA. What's another language that has it as a phoneme different from /m/?

http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.ca/2012/03/u.html

_________________
ZBB Conlang Index (check first post)


Last edited by Ser on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:53 pm 
Šriftom
Šriftom
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 1:48 pm
Posts: 7905
Location: Litareng, Keynami
As we all know, Hellesan is a natural language spoken on the Iberian Peninsula that Izambri has been researching for a whole number of years now. There were rumors that he might've made it up, but of course this is an outrageous claim without any foundation in facts. And if a dialect of Hellesan can have a /m : ɱ/ distinction, so can your conlang if you're striving for naturalism. At least that's two languages with a reported /m : ɱ/ distinction now.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:57 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:15 pm
Posts: 4090
Location: Spain
However, most of his research is in his native tongue, Basque, which explains the scarcety of material in English.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group