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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:43 am 
Lebom
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Here's a bit of Latin -> French; might as well, since I've already done most of the work.

Vulgar Latin
h > 0
VV > V:, where VV is a sequence of identical short vowels
n > 0 / _(f,v,s)
rs > ss
m, n > 0 / _# in polysyllables
m > n / _#
u > 0 / CC_V
w > gu (w from Germanic loanwords)

V > "V / "V(stop)r_
V > "V / _C*"(i,e)V
(i,e) > j / _V

Stressed vowels
a, a: > a
e, ae > è
e:, i, oe > é
i: > i
o > ò
o:, u* > ó
u: > u

*u stays u before i:

Judging from their reflexes, è/é and ò/ó had an open/closed distinction, something like SAMPA ɛ/e, ɔ/o.

Initial vowels (first vowel of a word)
a, a: > a
e, e:, i, ae, oe > e
i: > i
o, o:, u > o
u > u

Final vowels
a, a: > a
e, e:, i, ae, (oe) > e
i: > i
o, o:, u, u: > o (u remains u after another vowel)



k > tj / _F (F = front vowel)
g > dj / _F

è > iɛ / free (e.g. when the vowel ends the syllable; I wonder if a following stop + r doesn't also counts as a free syllable (petra > pièrre, palpebra > paupièvre, though that should have a v); also, before a final consonant
è > ɛ / checked (when a consonant ends the syllable)
ò > uo > uɛ / free (but not before a nasal)
ò > ɔ / checked

dj > dʒ / r_
dj > j
j > 0 / V_"F
j > dʒ / #_
j > dʒ / V_V (sometimes, but it usually stays j)
tj > ts / #_
tj > tsj
stj > ssj

gn, nj > ɲ
nkt > ɲt

V > 0 / when V is unstressed and in the penultimate syllable
V(!a) > 0 / when V is intertonic, i.e. immediately precedes the primary stress but is not in the initial syllable (!a = except for a)
a > ə / intertonic

0 > b / m_(r,l)
0 > d / (n,l,J,z)_r
sr > str
k > t / (n,r)_r
g > d / (n,r)_r
n > r / (g,p)_
<!--[αvcd, +obs][βvcd, +obs] > [βvcd][βvcd] (that is, two obstruents in contact with different voicing assimilate to the voicing of the second)-->
C > 0 / C_C(!l,r)
t > s / _(n,m)

gl, kl, lj > ʎ

b > v / V_(V,r)
v > 0 / V_B (B = back vowel)
p > v / V_(V,r)
p > b / _l
t, d > ð / V_(V,r)
ðr > r
ts > dz / V_V
s > z / V_V
ks > jss / V_V
ks > js / _#
k, g > 0 / V_B
k, g > 0 / B_a
k, g > j / _(a,C)
kʷ > v or u / V_F
kʷ > jv or ju / V_a

kkj, kj > ts
gj > j
pj > tʃ
bj, vj > dʒ
mɲ, mj > ndʒ

(note that the above clusters are the only case where a consonant does not receive intervocalic treatment before /j/)

V"e > "Vi
VV (identical vowels merge)
? > e / #_sC

k > tʃ / _a
g > dʒ / _a
tʃ > ʃ
dʒ > ʒ
ts > s
dz > z

ɛ > iɛ / _(Cj, jC)
ɔ > uɛ / _(Cj, jC)

0 > j / (ʃ, ʒ, sj, zj)"(a,é)_ (only in a free syllable)

ssj > jss
zj > jz
rj > jr
sj > s

ɛ > ɛa / _l(C,#)
l > u / _(C,#)
l > 0 / (i,u)_
lle, llo > u / (e,o)_# [this is actually an analogical development, but it applies as regularly as a sound law]

au, ɛau > ɔ
é > ɛi / free
é > ɛ / checked
ó > ou > ɛu / free
ó > ɔ / _[+nas]
ó > ou / checked

e > ə / #C*_..." (free)
e > ɛ / #C*_..." (checked or before another vowel)
o > ou or ɔ (the outcome fluctuates, but ɔ is often the result of analogy rather than strict sound change; always ou before another vowel)
a > ə / #(tS,dZ)_..." (free)

a > ai / _[+nas] (free)
a > ɛ / free (but a following ʎ creates a checked syllable)

kʷ > k
gʷ > g
CC > C (geminates simplify)
t > 0 / V_#
ɛ > i / _CC*i#

V(!a) > 0 / _# (except in monosyllables or after another vowel)
a > ə / _#
V > ə / _(CC(!nt, mp, ng, rt, rd), dʒ, tʃ)

s > 0 / _C
p, b > 0 / _(t, d)
v > 0 / _C, C_
ð > 0

uɛ > ɛu
u > y

ai > e / _#
ai > ɛ
ɛu > œ
iɛi > i
uɛi > yi
ou > u
ei, ɔi > oi / _[-nas]

ɔ > u / _"V
V[-high] > ə > 0 / _V (except that a is kept before o)

ɲ > in / _(C,#)
V(n, m) > V~ / _(C,#)
ɛ~ > a~
ai~, ei~, i~ > ɛ~
y~ > œ~

obs[+vcd] > [-vcd] / _#
t, s > 0 / _#
k > 0 / V~_#
n, m > 0 / C_#
j > 0 / (ʃ,ʒ)_V[-nas]

ʎ > j
r > ʁ
oi > wɛ > wa
oi~ > wɛ~
(I've omitted the loss of ə in various contexts, since it often resurfaces)

V = vowel
C = consonant
F = front vowel
B = back vowel
X* = zero or more X
" = primary stress


Last edited by pharazon on Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:58 am 
Avisaru
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Posts: 491
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pharazon wrote:
Maknas wrote:
rr > r / _


Maknas wrote:
Yeah, you missed a rule given a bit further down: OO > O / _ (if O = O)

Latin ipse > esse > ese
Latin capt?re > cattar > catar


rr doesn't merge with r: caro /ka4o/ vs. carro /karo/, pero vs perro, etc.


Ooh, that's not what I meant... The Latin geminate r.r becomes the Spanish trilled /r/.

pharazon wrote:
A missing one that came to mind is aj -> e, which comes sometime after kt -> jt: lactu:ca > lechuga.


I'll add it, but if I may ask, why is that a pronounced [aj]? /lajtu:ka/?

pharazon wrote:
You've skipped a few notable steps in the vowel development (e.g. evolution of an open/close distinction), but it's not a big problem in a sketch like this. One important thing, though, is that VL open e and o (i.e. CL ae/e, o) don't diphthongize to ie/ue before a palatal cluster; that is, CiV or a consonant cluster that yields jC: lectus > lecho, not *liecho, folia > hoja, etc.


Mind giving some of the evolution of the open/close distinction?

pharazpn wrote:
I think I'll give French a shot.


Yay!

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http://www.veche.net/novegradian - Grammar of Novegradian
http://www.veche.net/alashian - Grammar of Alashian


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:23 am 
Niš
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Has anyone got the Latin to Romanian sound changes? They would be extremely useful.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:11 pm 
Lebom
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Posts: 192
Location: Ann Arbor
Maknas wrote:
pharazon wrote:
Maknas wrote:
rr > r / _


Maknas wrote:
Yeah, you missed a rule given a bit further down: OO > O / _ (if O = O)

Latin ipse > esse > ese
Latin capt?re > cattar > catar


rr doesn't merge with r: caro /ka4o/ vs. carro /karo/, pero vs perro, etc.


Ooh, that's not what I meant... The Latin geminate r.r becomes the Spanish trilled /r/.


I thought you might've meant that, but you didn't have something like r > 4.

Maknas wrote:
pharazon wrote:
A missing one that came to mind is aj -> e, which comes sometime after kt -> jt: lactu:ca > lechuga.


I'll add it, but if I may ask, why is that a pronounced [aj]? /lajtu:ka/?


Oh, I see; you wrote

Maknas wrote:
kt > jt > tS / V_V


aj > e happens after the intermediate jt, but before tS. Same with things like ks > js > S.

Maknas wrote:
Mind giving some of the evolution of the open/close distinction?


Vulgar Latin replaced the CL long/short vowel contrast with an open/closed one (these are for stressed vowels):

a, a: > a
e, ae > ? (open)
e:, i, oe > ? (closed)
i: > i
o > ?
o:, u > ?
u: > u

But Sardinian and Romanian used different systems: Sardinian simply merged long and short pairs; Romanian followed the above system except that o and o: both went to o and u, u: to u.

Allie wrote:
Has anyone got the Latin to Romanian sound changes? They would be extremely useful.


I'll give it a try; it may take a few days though.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:35 pm 
Avisaru
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I'll need the Latin > Romanian changes too...







Anyways, I found a really useful book at my local college library, and I made a bunch of photocopies of some sound changes listed in it. I'll post 'em here whence I type them all up. But for now, here's PIE > Armenian:

C = consonants
V = vowels
N = nasals
L = liquids
S = sonorants
? = nasalized vowels

Proto-Indo-European > Armenian

[u:, u, o:] > u
[ej, oj] > Ej
Ew > ow
o > a (rare)
[a:, a] > a
e > a (rare)
e > E
[e:, i, i:] > i
E > i / _N
o > u / _N
ej > e / _
ia > Ea
[i, u] > @ (in some unstressed syllables)
e > i (in unstressed syllables)
oy > u (in unstressed syllables)
Ea > E (in unstressed syllables)

b > p? > p / _
d > t? > t / _
g_j > k_j? > tS? > c / _
g > k? > k / _
g_w > k_w? > k / _
bh > b / #_
bh > w, v / _
dh > d / _
g_jh > g_j > Z > j / #_
g_jh > g_j > Z > z / _
gh > g > g / _
g_wh > g_w > dZ / #_[e, i]
g_wh > g_w > g / #_
g_wh > g_w > Z / _
p > h, ? / #_
p > w, v / _
t > t? / #_
t > t? / [aw, ow]_
t > d / [N, L]_
y > w / _o
y > ? / _
k_j > tS > s / _
k > g / [N, L]_
k > k? / _
k_w > tS? / _[e, i]
k_w > g / [N, L]_
k_w > k? / _
[sk, ks] > c? / _
kj > tS? / _
[sr, rs] > r: / _
r > r: / _N
l > 5 / C_#, C_, V_V, lV_
Ns > s / _
sN > N / _
N > w / S_S
VN > ? > V > ? / _# (in polysyllable words)
N > n / _# (in monosyllable words)
N= > n / _#
m= > am / _
n= > an / _
r= > ar / _
l= > a5 / _
V > ? / _(C)#

(I'm using _j for the palatal stops here)

I don't guarantee that these are all perfectly acurate, though... Although the book had very good info, the organization was crappy...


When I get around to it, I'll post PIE > Latin, PIE > Common Celtic, PIE > Albanian, and PIE > Tocharian.

_________________
http://www.veche.net/
http://www.veche.net/novegradian - Grammar of Novegradian
http://www.veche.net/alashian - Grammar of Alashian


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:32 am 
Lebom
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Posts: 192
Location: Ann Arbor
Latin > Romanian

Vulgar Latin
h > 0
VV > V:, where VV is a sequence of identical short vowels
n > 0 / _(f,v,s)
rs > ss
m, n > 0 / _# in polysyllables
m > n / _#
u > 0 / CC_V
s > 0 / _# in polysyllables
s > i / _#

V > "V / "V(stop)r_
V > "V / _C*"(i,e)V
(i,e) > j / _V

Stressed vowels (note the difference from the French development)
a, a: > a
e, ae > E
e:, i, oe > e
i: > i
o, o: > o
u, u: > u

Initial vowels
a, a: > a
e, e:, i, ae, oe > e
i: > i
o, o:, u > o
u > u

Final vowels
a, a: > a
e, e:, i, ae, (oe) > e
i: > i
o, o:, u, u: > o (u remains u after another vowel)

s > i / #C*V_#
s > 0 / _#
t > 0 / _#
ks > s / _#

kw > p / V_a
gw > b / V_a
gn > mn
kw > k
gw > g

k > tS / _F
g > dZ / _F

E > ie
t > ts / _i
d > dz / _i
s > S / _i

o > u / _[+nas]
e > i / _[+nas]
a > 1 / _[+nas](!nn,mn)

ie > e / [+obs][+liq]_
ie > ia / _C*(a,e)#
E > ea / "_C*(a,e)#
o > oa / "_C*(a,e)#
i > 0 / (ts,dz,S)_V

li > lj / _V
l > lj / _i
ll > 0 / _i
"ella > e"a / _#
b, v > 0 / V_(V,t)
l > r / V_V
mn > un / a_V
b > u / V_(l,r)
ps > s
c > p / _(s,t)
sc, st > St / _F
skl > Skl
nct > nt

kj > tS
gj > j (sometimes 0)
[+lab]j > j[+lab]
stj, sj, ssj > S
tj > ts
dj > dz / r_
dj > Z / _"B
dj > z / V_V
nj, lj > j
rja > re / _#
rj > r

dz > z
kl > kj
gl > gj

a > e / [+pal]_#
o > u / "..._#
a > @ / "..._#
e > @ / "...[+lab]_C*V(!i)#
oe > oue
e > @ / ou_#
u > 0 / (![+obs][+liq], "V)_#

a > e / #C*V...[+pal]_..."
a > @ / #C*V..._..."
o > u / #C*V..._..."
e > i / #C*V..._n..."
e > @ / #C*V...(t,d,n)_..."

e > @ / [+lab]"_C*B
ea > a / [+lab]_
e > @ / #(r, [+lab])_..."
o > u / #C*_..."
a > @ / #CC*_..."
au > @u / #CC*_..."

nt, nd > n / _#
i > _j / _# (unless preceded by a C(sonorant) cluster)

This is probably missing some minor changes, and maybe some are out of order, because I didn't spend nearly as much time on these as the French one. They should be pretty accurate though.

If people are wondering, my (main) source for these is Jensen's A Comparative Study of Romance.


Last edited by pharazon on Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:00 am 
Niš
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Posts: 9
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Ooh thanks...I wanted those for ages! :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:55 pm 
Avisaru
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Posts: 491
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Um, Phar, quick questions about your Latin > French changes:

pharazon wrote:
V > ? / "..._...V (i.e. unstressed vowels in the penultimate syllable are dropped)
V(!a) > ? / #C*V..._CC*" (!a = except for a)
a > @ / #C*V..._CC*"


Mind explaining what you mean by the last two?

pharazon wrote:
[αvcd, +obs][βvcd, +obs] > [βvcd][βvcd] (that is, two obstruents in contact with different voicing assimilate regressively)


?

(mabye it's your notation here that's confusing me)

pharazon wrote:
ll(e,o) > u / (e,o)_ [this is actually an analogical development, but it applies as regularly as a sound law]


What do you mean by "ll(e,o)"? Do you mean "lle"/ "llo" become u after e or o?


Sorry for my lack of understanding... :oops:

EDIT: Another:

pharazon wrote:
tS > S
dZ > Z

[...]

? > j / (tS, dZ, sj, zj)"(a,?)_ (free)


Where do the tS and dZ in the last change come from, if only a few stages before, tS and dZ disappeared?

EDIT2:

pharazon wrote:
kw > k
gw > g


Where did the w come from? W's were already taken care of, and the 'qu' (Latin /k_w/, right?) already changed.

EDIT3: (last one, I promise! :wink: )

pharazon wrote:
V[-high] > @ > ? / _V (except that a is kept before o)


What do you mean by 'high'?

EDIT4: (this is about Romanian, not French, so hah! :wink: :roll: )

pharazon wrote:
a > ? / _[+nas](!nn,mn)


What is ?? Do you mean ?? /1/

EDIT5:

pharazon wrote:
e > @ / "...[+lab]_C*(!i)#


Since when is /i/ a consonant? I'm just asking to make sure you didn't forget a V or something there...

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http://www.veche.net/novegradian - Grammar of Novegradian
http://www.veche.net/alashian - Grammar of Alashian


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:53 pm 
Avisaru
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Posts: 491
Location: Maryland
*sigh*

I've finally finished typing up the PIE > Latin sound changes. Here you go:

C = consonants
V = vowels
P = labials
A = diphthongs
T = stops
F = fricatives
N = nasals

Proto-Indo-European > Latin

e > i / _N (as in -nk, -ng, -kn)
e > o / _5
o > u / _N
o > u / _mb, _mk, _5
o > e / w_[r, s, t]
o: > u: / _r
aj > ai > ae / _ (or > e: in rustic dialects)
ej > e: > i: / _ (but stays at e: in rustic dialects)
oj > oi > oe > u: / _
aw > au / _ (or > o: in rustic dialects)
[ew, ow] > ou > u: / _
V > i / $(C)(C)_$ (short vowels to i in unstressed medial syllables)
V > o / $(C)(C)V_$ (short vowels to o in unstressed medial syllables when preceded by a vowel)
V > e / $(C)(C)_$r (this change has some exceptions; syllables are always unstressed)
V > i, u / $(C)(C)_$P (unstressed)
a > e / $(C)(C)_C(C)$ (unstressed)
o > u / $(C)(C)_C(C)$ (unstressed)
a > e > i / $(C)(C)_N (unstressed)
a > e > u / $(C)(C)_5 (unstressed)
e > u / $(C)(C)_5 (unstressed)
ai > ei > i: / $(C)(C)_ (unstressed)
ei > i: / $(C)(C)_ (unstressed)
oi > e: / $(C)(C)_ (unstressed)
ou > u: / $(C)(C)_ (unstressed)
i > e / _#
o > e / _#
[i, e] > ? / _# (sometimes)
a > e / _C(C)#
e > i / _[s, t]#
o > u / _C(C)# (unless preceded by u or w)
[ai, ei, oi] > ei > i: / _(C)(C)#
V: > V / _[m, t, nt, l, r]#
V: > V / _#
j > i / C_
w > u / t_
e > o / _w, w_
w > ? / s_o
m= > em / _
n= > en / _
n:= > n / _ (eg, PIE gn:tos > Latin gn?tus)
l= > ol / _
l:= > l / _ (eg, PIE wl:na > Old Latin wl?na > Latin l?na)
r= > or / _
r:= > r / _ (eg, PIE grnom > Latin gr?num)
bh > f / #_, (> h in rustic dialects)
bh > b / _
tl > kl / _
t > ? / C_#
t > d / V_
dw > b / _
d > ? / V:_#
d > ? C_
d > l / _ (in many dialects) (eg, PIE dnghum > Old Latin dingua > Latin lingua)
dh > f / #_
dh > b / rV_, _Vr, _l, u:_
dh > d / _
k_j > k / _
g_j > g / _
gh > g / N_
gh > h / _
kw > ? / C_C
kw > k / _[o, i, C]
[gw, gwh] > gu / N_
gw > g / _V[l, r]
gw > v / _
gwh > f / #_
gwh > f / _r
gwh > v / V_V
s > z > r / V_V
sr > Tr > fr / #_ (/T/ in Latin!?)
sr > Tr > br / _
s > z / _C[+vcd]
V > V: / _zC[+vcd]
z > ? / _C[+vcd]
p > kw / _ ? kw
V1 > V2 / _ ? V2 (sometimes)
V > V: / _T[+vcd][T[-vcd], F[-vcd]] (i, e, and o sometimes bypass this)
T[+vcd] > [-vcd] / _[T[-vcd], F[-vcd]]
T[-vcd] > [+vcd] / _N
s > z / _N
s > z / _[l, r]
V > V: / _z[l, r]
z > ? / _[l, r]
T > f / _f
[t, d] > s / _s
[p, b] > m / _[n, m]
[t, d] > n / _[n, m]
[k, g] > N / _n
mm > n / [A, V:]_
[d, n, r] > l / _l
n > r / _r
s > z > l / l_
s > z > r / r_
n > l / l_
V > V: / _[dt, tt]
[dt, tt] > tst > ss / _
ssr > sstr / _
ml > mpl / _
ms > mps / _
mt > mpt / _
ss > s / _#
ss > s / [A, V:]_
l > r / _Vl
l > r / lV_ (in suffixes with l if root already has l) (eg, *milit-alis > militaris)
r > ? / r ? _
n > r / _ ? r
d > r / _ ? r
V: > V / _C(C)# (irregular: often before -m, -t, -nt, but never before ?s)
V > V:, V~ / _[nf, ns]
n > ? / V~

Nasalized vowels in Latin! Apparently, they were treated as the same as long vowels. This also explains early changes in Latin such as OLat. *lupons > Lat. lup?s, or OLat. puppins > pupp?s. It also explains early spelling variations, such as c?sul ~ c?nsul, or c?sor ~ c?nsor. Apparently the orthographic N was re-introduced in order to "standardize and maintain... analogical and etymological regularity." The preceding vowel, though, seems to have kept its new length.

C1C2C3C4 > C3C4, C4 / _
C1C2C3 > C1C3 / _

Cluster simplifications. For example, *?rds? > ?rsi, *fulgmen > fulmen, *lowksna > l?na, *stl?tis > l?s

There are also some haplology, analogy, and metathesis changes that I can't really explain...

If you're curious, my sources are mostly from "The Indo-European Languages", edited by Anna Giacalore Ramat and Paolo Ramat.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:52 pm 
Lebom
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Maknas wrote:
Um, Phar, quick questions about your Latin > French changes:

pharazon wrote:
V > ? / "..._...V (i.e. unstressed vowels in the penultimate syllable are dropped)
V(!a) > ? / #C*V..._CC*" (!a = except for a)
a > @ / #C*V..._CC*"


Mind explaining what you mean by the last two?


Oh, I forget to mention " indicates the stress. Thus, all vowels except /a/ drop when between the first vowel and the stress: quaesi"t?rem > *quest?re > qu?teur.

Maknas wrote:
pharazon wrote:
[?vcd, +obs][?vcd, +obs] > [?vcd][?vcd] (that is, two obstruents in contact with different voicing assimilate regressively)


?

(mabye it's your notation here that's confusing me)


Well, the rule is just like the voicing assimilation in Russian: sdjelat' > /zd'elat'/. People should probably just ignore that one though; I've never found an example for it, and I have no clue now why I even put it in :oops:. Probably just wanted to use some fancy symbols.

Maknas wrote:
pharazon wrote:
ll(e,o) > u / (e,o)_ [this is actually an analogical development, but it applies as regularly as a sound law]


What do you mean by "ll(e,o)"? Do you mean "lle"/ "llo" become u after e or o?


Yes: pellem > peau (analogized from the phonological development pellos > peau).


Maknas wrote:
pharazon wrote:
tS > S
dZ > Z

[...]

? > j / (tS, dZ, sj, zj)"(a,?)_ (free)


Where do the tS and dZ in the last change come from, if only a few stages before, tS and dZ disappeared?


Sorry, should be (S, Z, sj, zj)

Maknas wrote:
pharazon wrote:
kw > k
gw > g


Where did the w come from? W's were already taken care of, and the 'qu' (Latin /k_w/, right?) already changed.


I miswrote the earlier rules about /k_w/; they're supposed to be intervocalic. /k_w/ stays until then in other positions. Plus I wrote w > gu, which should really be w > g_w; I was thinking of Latin orthography (g_w so that the rule u > ? / CC_V doesn't eliminate it in cases like sangue). I'll edit it.

Maknas wrote:
pharazon wrote:
V[-high] > @ > ? / _V (except that a is kept before o)


What do you mean by 'high'?


V[-high] means vowels that aren't high.

Maknas wrote:
pharazon wrote:
a > ? / _[+nas](!nn,mn)


What is ?? Do you mean ?? /1/


Damn, I got used to my conlang's use of ? for /1/.

Maknas wrote:
pharazon wrote:
e > @ / "...[+lab]_C*(!i)#


Since when is /i/ a consonant? I'm just asking to make sure you didn't forget a V or something there...


I suppose I should've had a V there so my notation stays consistent: e > @ / "...[+lab]_C*V(!i)# ; that is, e > @ when it's in the penultimate syllable, is preceded by a labial, and the final syllable doesn't have i.

Also, I forgot a fairly recent change in Romanian, which will be edited in.

Maknas wrote:
If you're curious, my sources are mostly from "The Indo-European Languages", edited by Anna Giacalore Ramat and Paolo Ramat.


I've got that one. What's the university around there?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:29 pm 
Avisaru
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pharazon wrote:
Maknas wrote:
pharazon wrote:
V[-high] > @ > ? / _V (except that a is kept before o)


What do you mean by 'high'?


V[-high] means vowels that aren't high.


But what is "high"? I don't recognize the term...

pharazon wrote:
Also, I forgot a fairly recent change in Romanian, which will be edited in.


Um, mind saying what it is here? I've been copying down all of the changes in this thread (in my own notation), and I don't want to parse through the Romanian changes to find the difference...

pharazon wrote:
Maknas wrote:
If you're curious, my sources are mostly from "The Indo-European Languages", edited by Anna Giacalore Ramat and Paolo Ramat.


I've got that one. What's the university around there?


Maryland.




Speaking of Romanian, I can give you some modern changes, if you wish (which Metaforik taught me when he heard my Romanian pronounciation):

1 > u / ? (I don't know the rules here... for example, older s?nt 'I am' is now sunt /sunt/, and [s1nt] is considered improper)

l > ? / _# (such as in the definite ending -ul: ceasul 'the watch' [tSasu])

I'll get back to you when I think of more...



Also, question: You say that Romanian /1/ came from: a > 1 / _N (if N &#8800; nn, mm). But, Metaforik says the Romanian orthography represents the etymology: < ? > came from Latin /a/, while < ? > came from Latin /i/. You give the rules for a > ?, but then where did the ? come from?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:43 pm 
Lebom
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Maknas wrote:
pharazon wrote:
V[-high] means vowels that aren't high.


But what is "high"? I don't recognize the term...

/i y 1 } M u/

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:23 pm 
Lebom
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Maknas wrote:
pharazon wrote:
Maknas wrote:
pharazon wrote:
V[-high] > @ > ? / _V (except that a is kept before o)


What do you mean by 'high'?


V[-high] means vowels that aren't high.


But what is "high"? I don't recognize the term...


high vowels = close vowels

Maknas wrote:
pharazon wrote:
Also, I forgot a fairly recent change in Romanian, which will be edited in.


Um, mind saying what it is here? I've been copying down all of the changes in this thread (in my own notation), and I don't want to parse through the Romanian changes to find the difference...


i > _j / _# (unless preceded by a C(sonorant) cluster)

Maknas wrote:
Also, question: You say that Romanian /1/ came from: a > 1 / _N (if N &#8800; nn, mm). But, Metaforik says the Romanian orthography represents the etymology: < ? > came from Latin /a/, while < ? > came from Latin /i/. You give the rules for a > ?, but then where did the ? come from?


That's what I get for not mentioning irregular changes. I have e > i / _[+nas] right next to that change, but e also went to 1 in that same context, without a pattern (e.g. pl?nus > plin, but f?nus > f?n).


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:54 pm 
Sanci
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woah, cool stuff


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:54 pm 
Avisaru
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pharazon wrote:
If it's English sound changes you want, there's some here.


If anyone wants these in a listed / not roundabout form (some of those links reference the same change, which, at least, confused me at first), I've decided to list them out in regular notation:

C = consonants
N = nasals
E = front vowels
U = back vowels
P = labials
K = consonants (not /r/)

Old English > English

n > N / _[k, g]
? > ?@ / _[h, l, r, w]
?: > ?: @ / _[h, l, r, w]
e > e@ / _[h, l, r, w]
i > i@ > e@ / _[h, l, r, w]
i: > i:@ > e:@ / _[h, l, r, w]
[a, e, i, o, u] > [+lng] / _[mb, nd, ld, rd, rs, rT, rl] (if not followed by another C and if not stressed)
[a, e, o, u] > @ / _ (unstressed)
i > I / _ (unstressed)
e > i@ / [dZ, tS, S]_ (stressed)
e: > i:@ / [dZ, tS, S]_ (stressed)
? > ?@ / [dZ, tS, S]_ (stressed)
?: > ?:@ / [dZ, tS, S]_(stressed)
a > ? (in monosyllables, except when followed by N, [w, h, r]C, or when preceded by [g, k, S]
a > ? / _(C)$(C)[e, i] (if C = N)
a > o / _N
[a:, e:, i:, o:, u:] > [-lng] / ?_[mb, nd, ld, rd, rs, rT, rl],?_(C)$(C)V(C)$(C)V
[?, o] > e / ?_(C)$(C)(C)[i, j]
a > e / ?_N(C)$(C)[i, j]
a: > ?: / ?_(C)(C )$(C)(C)[i, j]
o: > e: / ?_(C)(C )$(C)(C)[i, j]
u > y / ?_(C)(C )$(C)(C)[i, j]
u: > y: / ?_(C)(C )$(C)(C)[i, j]
[?@, eo, io] > ie / ?_(C)(C)$(C)(C)[i, j]
[?:@, e:o, i:o] > i:e / ?_(C)(C)$(C)(C)[i, j]
ie > i / _
i:e > i: / _
E > a / _r
O > o / _l
? > b / m_[l, r, n] (irregular)
? > d / n_[l, r, n, #] (irregular)
? > t / s_[l, r, n, #] (irregular)
[a, E, O] > [+lng] / _$ (unless followed by (C)ig)
I > e / _$ (irregular) (unless followed by (C)ig)
U > o / _$ (irregular) (unless followed by (C)ig)
j > I / _
[tS, n] > ? / V_# (unstressed; irregular)
b > ? / m_#
h > ? / _[l, n, r, w]
w > ? / [s, t]_
h > ? (when unstressed)
@ > ? / _# (unstressed)
? > i / ?_h
g > j / E_
?@ > a / _
?:@ > E: / _
? > a / _
? > u / V_h (if V is not i)
j > ? / [i, y]_
g > u / B_
w > u / V_
V: > V / _ (when unstressed)
e@ > E / _
e:@ > e / _
x > w / [l, r]_
x > i / _
? > j / ?V(C)$(C)_
dj > dZ / _
sj > S / _
tj > tS / _
zj > Z / _
V > V: / _h[t, #]
h > ? / _t, _#
? > d / r_, _l
d > ? / ?V_Vr

Great Vowel Shift:

i: > @i / _K
u > @u / _K
e > i / _K
o > u / _K
a: > ?: / _K
E: > e / _K
O: > o / _K
?: > E: / _
e > i / _
E: > e / _
@i > aj / _
@u > aU / _


g > ? / _#
a > ? / _ (unless preceded by l)
a > O / l_
a > O / w_ (unless followed by a velar)
[g, k] > ? / #_n
l > ? / a_, _[P, k, g]
r > ? / _s, U_, _C (in non-rhotic dialects)
w > ? / _r
E > I / _N
u > U / _ (irregular)
?i > e / _
au > ?, a / _P
au > O / _
Eu > iu > ju / _
[Ui, Oi] > Oi / _
Ou > o / _
t > T (in loanwords with <th>)
? > h (in loanwords with <h>)
?U > ?@ / _ (unless P_ or _[l, S, tS]

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:32 am 
Niš
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Dang, I never realized that sound changes could be so complicated... :o

Now that I think about it, I should modify some of the sound changes that Kahrhtehlahrhno went through to evolve into its daughter languages. A whole lot of them are generic (e. g. a set of sounds changes in certain environments, like vowels shifting before liquids) instead of specific (e. g. a specific sound shifts in a precise environment, like a changing to e before r). :roll:

Does anyone know if there are any good resources (preferably on the internet) on the history of Japanese, Tagalog, Thai, and/or Hindi? I'm looking for lists of changes in particular, like the ones given here. I've tried looking for them on Google, but apparently I haven't found anything real useful. :|

~Tayanrai

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:01 am 
Lebom
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Tayanrai wrote:
Dang, I never realized that sound changes could be so complicated... :o

Now that I think about it, I should modify some of the sound changes that Kahrhtehlahrhno went through to evolve into its daughter languages. A whole lot of them are generic (e. g. a set of sounds changes in certain environments, like vowels shifting before liquids) instead of specific (e. g. a specific sound shifts in a precise environment, like a changing to e before r). :roll:

Does anyone know if there are any good resources (preferably on the internet) on the history of Japanese, Tagalog, Thai, and/or Hindi? I'm looking for lists of changes in particular, like the ones given here. I've tried looking for them on Google, but apparently I haven't found anything real useful. :|


I'm afraid you probably won't find much of that online; there's not even much in detail about major Western languages like Romance. A book is your best bet (not that I can recommend any).


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:01 am 
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You will find something somewhere, though. Japanese and Hindi are pretty well documented back into history. Thai and Tagalog, I'm not sure of.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:24 am 
Avisaru
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I know a book with some PIE > Sanskrit changes (id est, the book I've been using :roll: ). Next time I go to the library I'll photocopy those changes for you.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:53 pm 
Sanci
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Does anybody have Latin to Italian changes? Those would be extremely helpful.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:13 pm 
Lebom
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boomajoom wrote:
Does anybody have Latin to Italian changes? Those would be extremely helpful.


I do, and they'll be here within a few days.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:53 am 
Lebom
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Maknas, what happened to /o/? According to your English sound changes, if I read them rightly, we should still have it....

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:31 am 
Lebom
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Ahribar wrote:
Maknas, what happened to /o/? According to your English sound changes, if I read them rightly, we should still have it....


Well, that page is from Furman, in South Carolina, so I'd assume they're using American English.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:23 pm 
Sanci
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Also, does anyone have PIE > Proto-Celtic and Proto-Celtic > Welsh?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:47 pm 
Lebom
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boomajoom wrote:
Also, does anyone have PIE > Proto-Celtic and Proto-Celtic > Welsh?


I have a book that has an article on PIE > Proto-Celtic (same one that Maknas got his PIE changes from), but typing up some changes for it isn't high on my priority list. Maybe you could figure out Proto-Celtic > Welsh from http://www.aber.ac.uk/~awcwww/s/p5_lexicon.html and get back to us. :)


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