You're probably sick of people asking this...

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Ancenande
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Post by Ancenande »

Well, the best description of [r] I can do is to say [s] and move the tip of the tongue a little back. It will trill alone - you don't have to force it or something.

Also, you don't have to have a "good" or "gifted" tongue to do it. Just look at the millions of people with [r] in their natlangs (as me): "gifted" tongues should be few.
Unless you're talking about English "gifted" tongues.
[quote="linguoboy"][quote="Ollock"][quote="linguoboy"]I believe you mean "Poilsh"[/quote]/failed joke or dilexia, linguo?[/quote]And I've never heard of "dilexia". Is that the state of knowing only two words of a language?[/quote]

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dunomapuka
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Post by dunomapuka »

Alveolar trills come pretty easily to me, but while we're on the topic, does someone want to explain how to master the uvular trill? I usually come out with the voiced fricative instead; if I manage the trill it's by accident.

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Post by Sander »

Ancenande wrote:Also, you don't have to have a "good" or "gifted" tongue to do it. Just look at the millions of people with [r] in their natlangs (as me): "gifted" tongues should be few.
Actually, Flemish has [4] and occasionally [r] for /r/... and some people just tend to pronounce it [R\] or [R] or even [X]. It's considered a very minor speech impediment.

I'm just sayin', just cause your natlang has it doesn't mean you can pronounce it. You'll get more opportunities to practice, that's true :wink:
Well, the best description of [r] I can do is to say [s] and move the tip of the tongue a little back. It will trill alone - you don't have to force it or something.
I can't do it if I try it that way... My tongue is much more tense for [s] than for [r]. Probably because it's a sibilant. If you replace the [s] in that explanation with an alveolar non-sibilant fricative ([T_-]), it sounds much more plausible.
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The Machine
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NO JOKE!

Post by The Machine »

Honestly this is how I learned to make the alveolar trill. For the longest time I really couldn't pronounce it.

1. Listen to the Numa Numa song, in Romanian.
2. Get it in your head until you memorize every word & can sing it.
3. Try to pronounce the song correctly (dental t, d, n, [4] for r in most places; etc.)
4. Eventually the trill will come properly naturally in some places, like in "Vrei sa pleci dar"
5. Soon enough, you'll be able to pronounce Romanian properly and roll your r's naturally.

The whole process takes several months.

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Tarasoriku
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Re: NO JOKE!

Post by Tarasoriku »

The Machine wrote:Honestly this is how I learned to make the alveolar trill. For the longest time I really couldn't pronounce it.

1. Listen to the Numa Numa song, in Romanian.
2. Get it in your head until you memorize every word & can sing it.
3. Try to pronounce the song correctly (dental t, d, n, [4] for r in most places; etc.)
4. Eventually the trill will come properly naturally in some places, like in "Vrei sa pleci dar"
5. Soon enough, you'll be able to pronounce Romanian properly and roll your r's naturally.

The whole process takes several months.
Uhm...no. I confess I have the O-zone album...but it certainly isn't speech therapy, you've given no hint at all other than 'try really hard' basically. If it were as simple as imitation do you think anyone would ever ask this question?

----

Well anyway, I read this whole thread and I still can't produce alveolar trills, and I'm extremely self-conscious about it. I know there isn't a magical description that can help me, at least nothing that can help someone who's taken phonetics courses and still doesn't get it. However, I'd just like to know if the following 'sounds' way off the mark to people who can produce the sound naturally:

I'm mainly curious now about the airflow. It seems to force my tongue to retract rather than go over it and out of my mouth. ? Does anyone here make the alveolar trill both out a side of their mouth and 'normally' and what seems to be the difference in tongue position?

Btw [4] is in my native dialect, and is the position I'm using to try trilling.

On a related note - can anyone do retroflex trills?

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Viktor77
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Post by Viktor77 »

I always say the phrase "teddy beddy" over and over again until I can faintly make the [r] sound.
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Post by The Machine »

Uhm...no. I confess I have the O-zone album...but it certainly isn't speech therapy, you've given no hint at all other than 'try really hard' basically. If it were as simple as imitation do you think anyone would ever ask this question?
Well, I guess it just took me time to make my tongue "flexible" enough for the sound by trying to do it. There's really no other way to describe it, like it just came to me after a while.
I'm mainly curious now about the airflow. It seems to force my tongue to retract rather than go over it and out of my mouth. ? Does anyone here make the alveolar trill both out a side of their mouth and 'normally' and what seems to be the difference in tongue position?
I can make a side one, but this isn't the normal way to do it. My tongue might be a farther bit back than other people's, my trill is slightly behind the alveolar ridge.
Btw [4] is in my native dialect, and is the position I'm using to try trilling.


That's where I trill too. I use [4] for intervocal /t/ and /d/ in my dialect.
On a related note - can anyone do retroflex trills?
Yes. For me it came rather easily once I figured out the alveolar trill. I just tried to say [r] with my tongue curled backwards.

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Tarasoriku
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Post by Tarasoriku »

As of a half hour ago, I can make the alveolar trill! I believe I can make the retroflex trill also, but that one I'll have to have a Dravidian speaker attest to.

To do it, I needed to see the position of the jaw - something I simply hadn't paid attention to until recently, and then I had to find somebody with my overbite. I mimicked the jaw position and that seemed to do it.

Prior to this, I kept concentrating on the tongue alone. I have to say I think the descriptions of the tongue flapping 'naturally' or 'by itself' while poorly worded are accurate. All the skill comes from controlling the airflow and the jaw position. It is the jaw that must be 'relaxed', not the tongue. Shape it to the airflow of the vowel. Don't clench.

My fremulum is also a little on the short side, but according to my dentist it wasn't what was preventing me from making trills. Now I can make it on either side of the ridge as well as the center, though the center seems easier to me.

At first it was easiest following open vowels than close (the latter kept producing a fricative), but now both appear fine. I'm having a bit of hit and miss with homorganic clusters like [tr dr nr sr]. Other clusters seem to be fine.

I'm happy as a clam (a very geeky clam), and wanted to share in case it gave any hint.
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Silk
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Post by Silk »

Congratulations, fellow late bloomer. I learned to pronounce [r] after listening to Russian music for a while, reading numerous sites about the sound, and simply trying it over and over again in different positions until it worked.

I managed to produce a uvular trill before I got the alveolar, although now the uvular is less natural.

Interesting about clusters. When I first started trilling, all of my [r] sounded like [dr], and it was hard for me to pronounce [pr] or [br]. Now those are ok, but it's awkward for me to pronounce [sr] or [Sr] or [nr].

Although to be honest when I speak languages that have [r], I usually pronounce it as [4] instead without really exaggerating the trill. No one seems to notice or says anything. Though then again, the languages I study don't distinguish [4] from [r].

I wonder if Klaivas has managed to produce the trill since he posted this topic...

TaylorS
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Post by TaylorS »

Doing the alveolar trill clearly and consistently is darn hard, I keep on doing the alveolar flap instead, not good when I'm trying to speak Spanish, where the two are seperate phonemes! :x I also have trouble doing a good flapped R after T.

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dhok
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Post by dhok »

I'm in French, and I can't for the life of me figure out why everybody has problems with /y/ and /R\/! They're so damn easy!

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