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This has probably been asked so many times, but frankly, meh.

How does one like me (who is currently unable to) pronounce [r]?

Whenever I try, I always end up with some sort of uvular trill going on, and if I try and end that I just get a sort of [Z] sound. I may be having problems because I didn't get my tongue-tie removed around 2 years ago (hence why I usually pronounce t, d, l, n as dental). Anyway, how do I get this trill?

Ahh... I'm probably retarded (don't comment on this please )

The best advice for people trying to get their coronal trills down is: it's much easier between low vowels, to begin with, at least. So, practice saying [ara ara ara ara], and make sure you don't retroflex it!

-Klaivas- wrote:I may be having problems because I didn't get my tongue-tie removed around 2 years ago (hence why I usually pronounce t, d, l, n as dental).)

Why would that make you pronounce them dental? Dental is further forward than alveolar.

?Papapishu! wrote:

-Klaivas- wrote:I may be having problems because I didn't get my tongue-tie removed around 2 years ago (hence why I usually pronounce t, d, l, n as dental).)

Why would that make you pronounce them dental? Dental is further forward than alveolar.

The wikipedia article says that the frenulum is futher forward in the mouth, and that there's difficulty in retracting the tongue (presumably to the alveolar position here).

As regards making the sound [r], you have to have a flexible tongue. It takes me a few tries to get it right sometimes (in which case I usually make a [4] or similar).

aardwolf wrote:As regards making the sound [r], you have to have a flexible tongue.

Not really.. you just need a trained tongue. The more you pronounce it, the better you get at it, but from what I know the ability isn't limited just to certain gifted people.

I've got no problems with alveolars now, except this one...

Are there any parts of the tongue I should specifically tense or relax when I'm pronouncing [r]?

Xephyr wrote:

aardwolf wrote:As regards making the sound [r], you have to have a flexible tongue.

Not really.. you just need a trained tongue. The more you pronounce it, the better you get at it, but from what I know the ability isn't limited just to certain gifted people.

I wouldn't even go that far. This one only took me about three tries to get right. I, however, can't figure out how to pronounce a uvular trill.

On a side note, I think it's really funny that singers in the 1910s sang [r] instead of [r\].

audiblysilenced wrote:

Xephyr wrote:

aardwolf wrote:As regards making the sound [r], you have to have a flexible tongue.

Not really.. you just need a trained tongue. The more you pronounce it, the better you get at it, but from what I know the ability isn't limited just to certain gifted people.

I wouldn't even go that far. This one only took me about three tries to get right. I, however, can't figure out how to pronounce a uvular trill.

For some reason I can do uvular trills easier than I can do alveolar trills, which I find takes more effort to do than them. However, this might have something to do with my already having uvular approximants as my main "r" sound, with postalveolar approximants only showing up in purely prevocalic positions for me.

audiblysilenced wrote:On a side note, I think it's really funny that singers in the 1910s sang [r] instead of [r\].

Yes, just the idea of doing such in an English-language context, Scottish dialects aside, seems just bizarre to me as well.

Okay, let's see if I can explain how I think one could learn to produce [r]...

First, the tongue is not going to trill if there's no air over it. So it's a good idea to start with the tongue in the correct position, and let air go over it. So far, no trilling is involved. Then, tense the muscles in the tip of the tongue. It should then start trilling by itself (it's not like you move the tongue up and down by yourself - it's the air that does that).
Once you get this down, you can work to produce it in a more natural way.

Junes wrote:Okay, let's see if I can explain how I think one could learn to produce [r]...

First, the tongue is not going to trill if there's no air over it. So it's a good idea to start with the tongue in the correct position, and let air go over it. So far, no trilling is involved. Then, tense the muscles in the tip of the tongue. It should then start trilling by itself (it's not like you move the tongue up and down by yourself - it's the air that does that).
Once you get this down, you can work to produce it in a more natural way.

That's really helped, thanks I'm still doing it a bit slowly, however, but I'm sure I'll find a way of speeding it up.

I'm still not getting it.

How high up should my tongue be?

-Klaivas- wrote:I'm still not getting it.

How high up should my tongue be?

The tip should be fairly high - touching the alveolar ridge. I notice that my tongue might tend to be slightly asymmetric - one edge of the tip stays still against the alveolar ridge, and the other trills. If you try that perhpas it will be easier.

But basically it's just a knack - try it a few times and it will happen.

Whenever I try saying [ar] I end up with something like [aZadlEdildZe:Zi]

If I get the technical details I'm sure I'll be fine...

1. Where should the tip of the tongue be before I tense it?
2. Should any other parts of the tongue be tensed?
3. What sort of position should my tongue be in before I trill ([l]? [s]?)
4. Should the body of my tongue be high or low in my mouth?
5. Is there anything else I'm missing?

Kiitos paljon

Travis B. wrote: For some reason I can do uvular trills easier than I can do alveolar trills, which I find takes more effort to do than them. However, this might have something to do with my already having uvular approximants as my main "r" sound, with postalveolar approximants only showing up in purely prevocalic positions for me.

I can easily do uvular trills too... I put it down to spending lots of time in France as a child. But I find it very difficult to reliably produce any trill further forward.

Xephyr wrote:The best advice for people trying to get their coronal trills down is: it's much easier between low vowels, to begin with, at least. So, practice saying [ara ara ara ara], and make sure you don't retroflex it!

If you say so, it may be true for you. But I find it no more difficult to pronounce [iri] than [ara].

-Klaivas- wrote:1. Where should the tip of the tongue be before I tense it?
3. What sort of position should my tongue be in before I trill ([l]? [s]?)

the same position as [4].

2. Should any other parts of the tongue be tensed?

Huh....no?

4. Should the body of my tongue be high or low in my mouth?

Huh.... sorry, I just trill it. Never thought of that

alieneye wrote:

Xephyr wrote:The best advice for people trying to get their coronal trills down is: it's much easier between low vowels, to begin with, at least. So, practice saying [ara ara ara ara], and make sure you don't retroflex it!

If you say so, it may be true for you. But I find it no more difficult to pronounce [iri] than [ara].

So do I, now that I've been pronouncing them for a couple years. But when I began, I could barely muster [iri], while [ara] came easily.

Also, iirc, your first language has trilled r's. So you really don't have much room to talk.

Our phonetics tutor once told us a story of how he met a famous phonetician (he didn't give a name, however), who could do all sorts of phonetic gymnastics - implosives, ejectives, pharyngealised nasals, breathy voiced epiglottals, and so on - with the greatest of ease. But he couldn't do [r].

Try purring like a cat or imitate the sound of a revving engine.

Lingophile wrote:Try purring like a cat or imitate the sound of a revving engine.

I've read that so many times.

-Klaivas- wrote:

Lingophile wrote:Try purring like a cat or imitate the sound of a revving engine.

I've read that so many times.

Is it just me who ends up doing a bilabial trill when trying to do cat sounds?

chris_notts wrote:

-Klaivas- wrote:

Lingophile wrote:Try purring like a cat or imitate the sound of a revving engine.

I've read that so many times.

Is it just me who ends up doing a bilabial trill when trying to do cat sounds?

No, but it depends what kind of cat sound you're wanting to do.

Am I the only one that uses (well... not any more) [B\] for the <br> in "brown"?

Xephyr wrote:Also, iirc, your first language has trilled r's. So you really don't have much room to talk.

It doesn't. I didn't learn it as a child, I didn't grow up hearing it, except very occasionally on TV. What was [r] in Portuguese is now [h] in most Brazilian dialects, including mine. I know lots of people who can't do [r] (not that they tried).

chris_notts wrote:

-Klaivas- wrote:

Lingophile wrote:Try purring like a cat or imitate the sound of a revving engine.

I've read that so many times.

Is it just me who ends up doing a bilabial trill when trying to do cat sounds?

You had an odd cat.

audiblysilenced wrote:

audiblysilenced wrote:On a side note, I think it's really funny that singers in the 1910s sang [r] instead of [r\].

Yes, just the idea of doing such in an English-language context, Scottish dialects aside, seems just bizarre to me as well.

My grade three teacher seemed to think that a rolled [r] was more proper than our normal [r\]. She used to get us to stand up and try to say [Tri:] or [TrAes], which we couldn't do, because most of us still had problems with the [T] sound, let alone a rolling r sound which isn't even present in our dialect.

Only six months ago did I finally learn how to do a rolled [r]. People had told me over and over again the theory behind it: let the tip of your tongue go loose and blow air over the top, etc... and the best I could get was some kind of bizarre L-sound. When I learnt German a few years ago, I had a few problems with the uvular [R\] but I got the hang of it really quickly, and then I learnt how to pronounce [4], but it was only a coincidence that I one day pronounced [r]. It's something you can only do if you know what it feels like in your mouth, and the only way to get that is to have done it already... keep trying and you might have some luck (ah, what an inspirational story)