zompist bboard

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2006 9:44 pm**

I've noticed that different languages split up the concept of "sibling" differently in their vocabulary. Some languages, like most IE languages, split up siblings by gender, having one basic word for "sister" and one for "brother". Others, although just now I can't think of any examples, seem to split them up by age, having one basic word for "younger sibling" and one for "older sibling". Still others, like most Chinese languages IIRC, treat both divisions as fundamental, having four basic sibling words: "younger sister", "older sister", "younger brother", and "older brother" (meaning a single lexeme for each, not two-lexeme phrases as in English). And, although I haven't heard of any, I wouldn't be surprised if there are also languages where commonly one just says "sibling", without reference to either gender or age.

What I'd like to know is, are there any patterns to which languages have which set of terms? Do certain types of culture tend to have a particular type of sibling terminology, and if so what is the pattern? Are there any correlations between sibling terminology and how a language treats other semantic fields?

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2006 3:44 am**

http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/index.html

(a site on kinship terms more generally, not just siblings, but very worth reading)

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2006 4:00 am**

Te reo Maori has several terms for siblings

Tuahine - sister of a male
Tungane - brother of a male
Matamua - oldest of either gender
Potiki - youngest of either gender
Tuakana - older sibling of same gender
Taina - younger sibling of same gender

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2006 7:37 am**

Primordial_Soup wrote:I've noticed that different languages split up the concept of "sibling" differently in their vocabulary. Some languages, like most IE languages, split up siblings by gender, having one basic word for "sister" and one for "brother". Others, although just now I can't think of any examples, seem to split them up by age, having one basic word for "younger sibling" and one for "older sibling". Still others, like most Chinese languages IIRC, treat both divisions as fundamental, having four basic sibling words: "younger sister", "older sister", "younger brother", and "older brother" (meaning a single lexeme for each, not two-lexeme phrases as in English). And, although I haven't heard of any, I wouldn't be surprised if there are also languages where commonly one just says "sibling", without reference to either gender or age.

I have never encountered a language which lexically distinguishes siblings (if with siblings you mean brothers and sisters) only by age, but not by gender. Does it even exist?
Culturally, I'd assume lexically different words for older and younger siblings to show up in languages spoken in cultures with strong age hierarchies. Besides the Chinese you mentioned, the Kazakh are a similar example (of course, other constellations are possible - age hierarchies without lexicalisation, or lexicalisation as a trace of age hierarchies that existed earlier but don't do any more).
Best regards,

Hans-Werner

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2006 8:07 am**

I agree with hwhatting. There are two basic patterns:

1. Primary distinction is by sex, relative age is not distinguished lexically. There may, or may not be a specific word for "sibling", but it's probably not that commonly used. Example languages: most IE languages. English is a good example: people don't normally say: "I have three siblings", they are much more likely to say: "I have two brothers and a sister".

2. Primary distinction is by relative age within each sex. There may not even be an easy way to specify siblings of the same sex as such. On the other hand, the word for "sibling" is more readily used. Example languages: Hungarian, Japanese. In Hungarian, you can say "Jancsi az öcsém" (Johnny is my younger brother), there is no common way to say "He is my brother" (without specifying relative age). (You can say "fivérem" [my male sibling], or "lánytestvérem" [my female sibling], but these sound funny).

In Japanese also, you have four possibilities:

兄 - ani - older brother
弟 - otôto - younger brother
姉 - ane - older sister
妹 - imôto - younger sister

There is no easy way (AFAIK) to just say "brother" or "sister". There is a word "kyôdai" (兄弟), made up of the Sino-Japanese readings of the words for older and younger brother, but it means "sibling", not "brother" (read whatever level of sexism you want into this).

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2006 8:14 am**

In Malay, distinction is made between the two elder siblings, but not for younger ones.

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2006 9:17 am**

In Bulgarian, there are two pairs of terms: brother/sister, irrespective of age, and older brother/sister.

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2006 9:35 am**

hwhatting wrote:I have never encountered a language which lexically distinguishes siblings (if with siblings you mean brothers and sisters) only by age, but not by gender. Does it even exist?

There are elements of this in Korean system, where the terms for older siblings vary not only by the sex of the referent, but also by the sex of the speaker. 누이 /nwui/, for instance, designates an older sibling of the opposite sex, i.e. the older brother of a female speaker, but the older sister of a male speaker.

For "younger sibling", the generic term is 동생 /tongsayng/. Sex can be specified by adding the Sino-Korean prefixes 남 /nam/ "male" and 여 /ye/ "female", but this seems to be conventional only in contrastive or introductory contexts (e.g. "I have two /namtongsayng/" vs. "My /tongsayng/ [who I've already told you about] lives nearby.").

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2006 10:30 am**

linguoboy wrote: There are elements of this in Korean system, where the terms for older siblings vary not only by the sex of the referent, but also by the sex of the speaker. 누이 /nwui/, for instance, designates an older sibling of the opposite sex, i.e. the older brother of a female speaker, but the older sister of a male speaker.

For "younger sibling", the generic term is 동생 /tongsayng/. Sex can be specified by adding the Sino-Korean prefixes 남 /nam/ "male" and 여 /ye/ "female", but this seems to be conventional only in contrastive or introductory contexts (e.g. "I have two /namtongsayng/" vs. "My /tongsayng/ [who I've already told you about] lives nearby.").

I should have been more clear on this - I expect any language that distinguishes siblings by age lexically to distinguish them by gender lexically at least in a part of the sibling naming system. Some parts may only distinguish age (as also in Maori as posted by Turtlehead:

Turtlehead wrote: Matamua - oldest of either gender
Potiki - youngest of either gender

The reason for this expectation is that I see age distinction in sibling terminology as a higher degree of system complexity than gender distinction, and I generally would expect a system that shows a higher level of complexity also to have the lower level.
Maybe I"m wrong, of course, that's why I'm waiting for counterexamples of systems having only lexicalised age distinctions, but no gender distinctions.
Best regards,

Hans-Werner

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2006 2:27 pm**

Nuntar wrote:http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/index.html

(a site on kinship terms more generally, not just siblings, but very worth reading)

It's a good site in general, I agree, and I've made use of it for other purposes, but it actually does little to address the specific question I asked, which is "what is the pattern behind which cultures use age as well as/instead of gender as a way of distinguishing siblings?" Insofar as language is concerned, the site mostly deals with how different languages designate relatives outside the nuclear family, such as the parents' siblings, siblings' offspring, or parents' siblings' offspring. The only example of different labeling systems for siblings that I could find, different cousin terms nonwithstanding, appears to be an example of the fourth type I mentioned: no distinction by either gender or age is commonly used. In fact, the site seems not to address the phenomenon of distinguishing siblings by age, so that doesn't really surprise me.

Posted: **Sat May 13, 2006 5:03 am**

Primordial_Soup wrote:And, although I haven't heard of any, I wouldn't be surprised if there are also languages where commonly one just says "sibling", without reference to either gender or age.

You don’t have to go any further than to Swedish. The word “syskon” is perfectly colloquial, and means “sibling”.

“I have four syskon” can mean that you have four sisters of undefined age, four younger brothers, two brothers and one younger and one older sister etc etc.

But of course, we use “bror” and “syster” too. If verticality = age in the table below, we get

Code: Select all

                                                   ¯|
          |------- storebror    ¯|                  |
          |  |---- storasyster  _|  = storasyskon   |
bröder <--|  |                                      |
          |  |     EGO                              |    = syskon
          |  |                                      |
          |--|---- lillebror    ¯|  = småsyskon     |
systrar <----|---- lillasyster  _|                  |
                                                   _|

Posted: **Sat May 13, 2006 6:36 am**

The Itlani have a non gendered word for sibling "zurhán". No specific lexical distinction is made for honorific use but there is a honorific suffix that can be appended: zurhanko (honored sibling)

A male sibling is genderized by the addition of the male suffix -ór

zurhanór - brother

For female -él

zurhanél - sister

To emphasize a group of siblings some male and some female the mixed gender prefix kra- can be appended:

krazurhanú - male and female siblings, brothers and sisters.

For older brother or sister the augmentative suffix -ún is used:

zurhanelún - older sister (big sister)
zurhanorún - older brother (big brother)

This usage is not consistent as -ún is used for:

ushelún - grandmother
ushorún - grandfather

Posted: **Mon May 15, 2006 4:11 am**

Tsiasuk-Pron wrote:The Itlani (snip)

Is this a conlang?

Posted: **Mon May 15, 2006 11:42 am**

hwhatting wrote:
Tsiasuk-Pron wrote:The Itlani (snip)
Is this a conlang?

Yes.

Posted: **Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm**

Noriega wrote:But of course, we use “bror” and “syster” too.

*wonders if bror is the origin of Scots brar*

Posted: **Sat May 27, 2006 4:34 am**

Rory wrote:
Noriega wrote:But of course, we use “bror” and “syster” too.
*wonders if bror is the origin of Scots brar*

Couldn’t it just be some sound change in Scots English? Intervocalic [D] gone down the drain … ?

Even Bengali has brathar

Posted: **Sat May 27, 2006 10:37 pm**

Noriega wrote:
Primordial_Soup wrote:And, although I haven't heard of any, I wouldn't be surprised if there are also languages where commonly one just says "sibling", without reference to either gender or age.
You don’t have to go any further than to Swedish. The word “syskon” is perfectly colloquial, and means “sibling”.

“I have four syskon” can mean that you have four sisters of undefined age, four younger brothers, two brothers and one younger and one older sister etc etc.

But of course, we use “bror” and “syster” too. If verticality = age in the table below, we get
Code: Select all
                                                   ¯|
          |------- storebror    ¯|                  |
          |  |---- storasyster  _|  = storasyskon   |
bröder <--|  |                                      |
          |  |     EGO                              |    = syskon
          |  |                                      |
          |--|---- lillebror    ¯|  = småsyskon     |
systrar <----|---- lillasyster  _|                  |
                                                   _|

This very same thing applies to Faroese and Danish too, am borrowing The Noriega Code:

Faroese:

Code: Select all

                                                   ¯|
          |------- stóribeiggi  ¯|                  |
          |  |---- stórasystir  _|  = eldri systkin |
brøður <--|  |                                      |
          |  |     EG                               |    = systkin
          |  |                                      |
          |--|---- lítlibeiggi  ¯|  = yngri systkin |
systrar <----|---- lítlasystir  _|                  |
                                                   _|

Danish:

Code: Select all

                                                   ¯|
          |------- storebror    ¯|                  |
          |  |---- storesøster  _| = ældre søskende |
brødre <--|  |                                      |
          |  |     EGO                              |    = søskende
          |  |                                      |
          |--|---- lillebror    ¯| = yngre søskende |
søstre  <----|---- lillesøster  _|                  |
                                                   _|

Posted: **Sun May 28, 2006 5:23 am**

Noriega wrote:
Rory wrote:
Noriega wrote:But of course, we use “bror” and “syster” too.
*wonders if bror is the origin of Scots brar*
Couldn’t it just be some sound change in Scots English? Intervocalic [D] gone down the drain … ?

Even Bengali has brathar

It seems that here brother may be pronounced [br\V:R] similarly. However, this seems to be due to a phonological-level elision applied to phonemic /"bR@D@R/ as /bR@R/ would result in [br\R=] instead. (This is analogous to pronouncing whether as [wE:R], from /"wED@R/ rather than some /wER/, here.) Consequently, such must be considered a separate innovation from Scots brar.

(And just in case you were wondering, mother can too become [mV:R] here, but in practice one is far more likely to hear mom, as [ma~:m], in use.)

Posted: **Tue May 30, 2006 12:27 am**

Turtlehead wrote:Te reo Māori has several terms for siblings

Tuahine - sister of a male
Tungane - brother of a male
Matamua - oldest of either gender
Potiki - youngest of either gender
Tuakana - older sibling of same gender
Taina - younger sibling of same gender

Amending for vowel length and some clarifications:

tuahine - sister of a male
tungāne - brother of a male
mātāmua - oldest of either gender - this just means FIRSTBORN - not nec a sibling term per se - a sibling might refer to the firstborn by another term.
pōtiki - youngest of either gender - again this just means LASTBORN, not nec a sibling term per se- a sibling might refer to the lastborn by another term.
tuakana - older sibling of same gender
teina - younger sibling of same gender (standard Māori)

Generally also the same terms would be used for cousins (however distant) of the same generation as for brothers or sisters. So a teina could be a younger cousin of the same sex.

Posted: **Tue May 30, 2006 2:21 pm**

Taane wrote:
Turtlehead wrote:Te reo Māori has several terms for siblings

Tuahine - sister of a male
Tungane - brother of a male
Matamua - oldest of either gender
Potiki - youngest of either gender
Tuakana - older sibling of same gender
Taina - younger sibling of same gender
Amending for vowel length and some clarifications:

tuahine - sister of a male
tungāne - brother of a male
mātāmua - oldest of either gender - this just means FIRSTBORN - not nec a sibling term per se - a sibling might refer to the firstborn by another term.
pōtiki - youngest of either gender - again this just means LASTBORN, not nec a sibling term per se- a sibling might refer to the lastborn by another term.
tuakana - older sibling of same gender
teina - younger sibling of same gender (standard Māori)

Generally also the same terms would be used for cousins (however distant) of the same generation as for brothers or sisters. So a teina could be a younger cousin of the same sex.

Mistake:
tungāne - brother of a female

Posted: **Mon May 14, 2007 5:27 pm**

In Russian there is a big linguistic family tree: (exactly about siblings there are)

муж - husband

золовка - his sister
деверь - his brother

жена - wife

своячница - her sister
свояк - своячница's husband

брат - brother
кузен or двоюродный брат - cousin

сестра - sister
кузина or двоюродная сестра - cousin

Posted: **Mon May 14, 2007 5:33 pm**

euphoria wrote:In Russian there is a big linguistic family tree: (exactly about siblings there are)

муж - husband

золовка - his sister
деверь - his brother

жена - wife

своячница - her sister
свояк - своячница's husband

брат - brother
кузен or двоюродный брат - cousin

сестра - sister
кузина or двоюродная сестра - cousin

Technically, the only sibling designations here are брат and сестра. Cousins are not considered siblings (although many languages do refer to them with sibling terminology) and neither are in-laws. So Russian's kinship terminology in this area isn't actually any more elabourate than that of most European languages.

Posted: **Mon May 14, 2007 5:39 pm**

Is the "kinterms in your ...lang" thread still active? I'm sure some of these questions were among some of those discussed on that thread.

Edit: Yes, it is; and another more recent thread as well, the "mothers and daughters" thread.
http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.p ... %2Alang%2A
http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.p ... %2Alang%2A

Posted: **Mon May 14, 2007 5:49 pm**

linguoboy wrote:Technically, the only sibling designations here are брат and сестра. Cousins are not considered siblings (although many languages do refer to them with sibling terminology) and neither are in-laws. So Russian's kinship terminology in this area isn't actually any more elabourate than that of most European languages.

Well, I think brother in law is a brother still, the same as cousins. I meant where English just adds '-in law', Russian has a new word

Posted: **Mon May 14, 2007 9:26 pm**

Zhen Lin wrote:In Malay, distinction is made between the two elder siblings, but not for younger ones.

Turkish is the same.
"older brother" and "older sister"
"younger sibling"

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