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 Post subject: The Lesser-Used Sounds
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:03 pm 
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Since the thread is starting to fall down the page, it might be a good time to summarize the results.

Czech's weird rhotic "/r_r/" was surprisingly common for a sound which nobody's sure what it really is.

Consonants at pretty much every POA are common, except:
  • Only doctrellor used any labial-velars (/k_p g_b N_m/). In the real world they're fairly common.
  • Only tengado used the epiglottal stop />\/, and only CGreathouse had an epiglottal fricative /H\/.
  • Only kodé used linguolabials (/t_N d_N T_N/). They're found in some languages of Vanuatu, and apparently developed out of original bilabials when followed by a front vowel. And they're fairly easy to pronounce, so I wonder why more people haven't used them.
  • Only JohnQPublik used a bidental fricative.
  • Only Curlyjimsam used that Swedish fricative /x\/. But it's thought by some that that one might not actually exist. (Why not? I don't know. Ask them.)
  • Only FSI used a non-high semivowel (/e_^/).
  • Nobody used any labial-alveolars (/t_p d_b n_m/) or labial-postalveolars (/t_-_p d_-_b n_-_m/). Yeli Dnye of PNG contrasts both with labial-velars.
  • Unsuprisingly, nobody used epiglotto-pharyngeals (made by putting the epiglottis on the pharynx), which are only known from one language, Ami of Taiwan.
  • One can't really tell when someone reports having /t_d/ whether they mean their /t/s are pronounced like in Romance languages, or whether they contrast /t_d/ and /t/. But I will say that contrasting dentals and alveolars is cool, well-attested and you should do it.
However, not every manner of articulation was exploited for every POA.
  • Nobody used velarization on anything other than /5/.
  • Only Zhen Lin (/p_p\/) and Anguipes (/b_v/) had labial affricates. This is, of course, attested in German.
  • Only Anguipes had a dental affricate (/t_T/). Saanich, a North Straits Salish language, has /t_T_>/ (but not /t_T/).
  • Only JohnQPublik used retroflex affricates (/t`_s` d`_z`/). These are reasonably common in the real world.
  • Only Nuntar (/c_C J\_j\/) and JQP (/c_C_>/) used palatal affricates. These, too, are reasonably common, though I don't know how common contrasting them with /c J\/ is.
  • Only cathbad (/k_x q_X/) and JQP (/k_x_> q_X_>/) used dorsal affricates. /k_x/ exists in dialects of German, and /q_X/ is common in Salishan and elsewhere.
  • Several people used the voiceless alveolar affricate /t_K/, but only Nuntar used the voiced version /d_K\/, and only chris_notts used the ejective /t_K_>/. I think in the real world the ejective might actually be more common, since I know several language that have /t_K_>/ but not /t_K/.
  • Nobody used any non-alveolar lateral affricates! Dahalo has a palatal ejective /c_L_>/, and Zulu has a velar ejective /k_L\_>/. Now these are cool sounds.
  • Similarly, non-alveolar lateral fricatives were missing. Plenty of approximants, but only Primordial_Soup used a palatal fricative /L_0_r/, and nobody used the velar. EDIT: It turns out /C\/ is Z-SAMPA for /L_0_r/. So add JhemethaEqiv and Mr Saturday.
  • Two bilabial approximants /B_o/ (Zhen Lin and Nuntar), two unrounded velars /M\/ (JQP and Kuvdamos), one uvular /R_o/ (Dingbats).
  • Only Primordial Soup and kodé used the bilabial trill /B\/, and neither of them seems to have paired it with /t/ as /t_B\/ like Oro Win does.
  • Only Curlyjimsam used the retroflex flap /r`/.
  • Only Pie Man used the labiodental nasal /F/, but that's okay since I don't know of any languages that actually use it.
  • Nobody used bilabial or labiodental flaps.
  • Nobody used /h~/. Rhinoglottophilia FTW!
And then there were some kinds of articulations that were hardly used at any POA:
  • Only cathbad and Pechel tefalla made use of nasal released stops / prestopped nasals.
  • Only Nuntar and Wycoval used /K\/, and nobody used voiced lateral fricatives at any other POA.
  • Only Arunas and Radagast used the "voiced aspirates" / breathy voiced stops.
  • Only Varamannato and Pechel tefalla had a voiceless flap /4_0/, and nobody had any voiceless trills.
  • Only Arunas and pfainuk used any clicks. And of course Eddy, who didn't bother to participate.
  • Only Radagast used the "velar aspiration" found in Lakhota.
  • Nobody used trill-released stops. (i.e. /tr/ as a single phoneme)
  • Only Finlay used a reverse affricate (/s_t/). I've never heard of a natlang using them but they sound kind of cool.
  • Nobody used non-explosive stops (i.e. stops without a pressure build-up and release). Which is fair enough, though, since I only just heard of them myself. Ikwere developed them out of /k_p g_b/.
  • Nobody used voiceless implosives.


So, if you want something new and unique for your lang, this can be a start.

Corrections/additions welcome.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:24 pm 
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Vlad serves to keep us diverse.

Go Vlad.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:31 pm 
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What about my epiglottal trill?

Also, this is sweet. Like chocolate. Thx Vlad ^__^.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:33 pm 
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Vlad, one of my two main conlangs- Hysoti- has phonemic voiceless alveolar trills. :)

[EDIT] A reverse affricate.... isn't that merely a cluster of fricative plus plosive.... :?

[EDIT2]FWIW, I will post Hyosti's phonology now in your thread. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:55 pm 
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¡Papapishu! wrote:
[*]Two bilabial approximants /B_o/ (Zhen Lin and Nuntar), two unrounded velars /M\/ (JQP and Kuvdamos), one uvular /R_o/ (Dingbats).

Kardii is actually Nortala's. I didn't state this explicitly in the thread (perhaps I should have done) since I thought it was well-known. I was answering for her because she isn't available on Thursdays and Fridays....

Oh, and Proto-Ileuran /R/ might have [R_o] as an allophone or even as its primary allophone, I'm still wavering.

But thank you very much for this list! Definitely food for thought for future languages.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:48 pm 
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This is very interesting :mrgreen: The only problem is that it only covers consonants.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:38 pm 
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Excellent...I'm one of only two to use voiced aspirates. And again for clicks. Most excellent...

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:11 pm 
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Cool! :D very usefull list. I'd never heard of the velar-aspiration...

Though - I've used linguolabials, I contrast dental and alveolar stops, I have /cs\) J\z\)/ which developed out of /cC) J\j\)/, and one of my languages contrasts /r_0/ and /r/ for a brief period in its evolution :P. So I think I'm doing pretty well :D.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:12 pm 
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¡Papapishu! wrote:
  • Nobody used /h~/. Rhinoglottophilia FTW!

Is that even possible? It'd be hard to distinguish from oral /h/.

Quote:
  • Nobody used non-explosive stops (i.e. stops without a pressure build-up and release). Which is fair enough, though, since I only just heard of them myself. Ikwere developed them out of /k_p g_b/.

How do they work?

Quote:
  • Nobody used voiceless implosives.

  • Are they even attested in any natlangs?


    Good work vlad, thanks for doing this.

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    PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:14 pm 
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    I only mentioned my main conlangs because I didn't think it would be fair to include languages that are no more than a phonology, or languages whose phonology is deliberately bizarre or unusual. If I did, I would have added what I have here below:

    I have a conlang in the works called Ižda Mir in which nearly every consonant has a velarized version (hint: there are no velars). But that conlang is still a long ways off, so I didn't mention it. I also have a language with /bh/, /th/, and /kh/, but no other aspirated consos; but it is just a cipher for Palli.
    Somewhere along the development from Ižda Mir to Moonshine, /t_j/ developed into /t_d/, with /t/ remaining /t/, and likewise for the fricative and nasal counterparts of /t/.
    Moonshine allows /t`s`/ and /d`z`/ but doesn't consider them single phonemes. In fact they are spelled <pš> and <bž>.


    Also: I don't see preaspirates mentioned anywhere.

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    PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:31 pm 
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    ¡Papapishu! wrote:
    [*]Only tengado used the epiglottal stop />\/, and only CGreathouse had an epiglottal fricative /H\/.


    Did they contrast them with pharyngeals? Apparently most supposed pharyngeals are often actually epiglottal, so it's really only cool if you contrast the two.

    Quote:
    [*]Only Curlyjimsam used that Swedish fricative /x\/. But it's thought by some that that one might not actually exist. (Why not? I don't know. Ask them.)


    Ladefoged and Maddieson say that no doubly articulated fricatives have been consistently observed, and speculate that they're too complex for regular use in speech.

    Quote:
    [*]Only Anguipes had a dental affricate (/t_T/). Saanich, a North Straits Salish language, has /t_T_>/ (but not /t_T/).


    Chipewyan!


    Quote:
    [*]Only cathbad (/k_x q_X/) and JQP (/k_x_> q_X_>/) used dorsal affricates. /k_x/ exists in dialects of German, and /q_X/ is common in Salishan and elsewhere.


    I didn't mention that my /q_?\/ can be realized as [q_X], if that would have counted.

    Quote:
    [*]Only Arunas and pfainuk used any clicks. And of course Eddy, who didn't bother to participate.


    Hey :( I forgot I started a phonology recently with clicks arising from geminates.


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    PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:43 pm 
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    Rory wrote:
    ¡Papapishu! wrote:
    • Nobody used /h~/. Rhinoglottophilia FTW!

    Is that even possible? It'd be hard to distinguish from oral /h/.


    Not necessarily. It probably causes nasalization of adjacent vowels or something.

    Rory wrote:
    Quote:
    [*]Nobody used voiceless implosives.[/list]

    Are they even attested in any natlangs?


    Igbo, from /k_p/.


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    PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:16 pm 
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    Rory wrote:
    Quote:
    [*]Nobody used voiceless implosives.[/list]

    Are they even attested in any natlangs?

    Weird, I'd think voiceless implosives were more common than voiced implosives. /t_</ is much easier for me to say than /d_</. Plus /g_</ sounds like I'm dying.

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    PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:08 pm 
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    pharazon wrote:
    ¡Papapishu! wrote:
    [*]Only tengado used the epiglottal stop />\/, and only CGreathouse had an epiglottal fricative /H\/.

    Did they contrast them with pharyngeals? Apparently most supposed pharyngeals are often actually epiglottal, so it's really only cool if you contrast the two.

    There isn't a pharyngeal stop for me to contrast with, is there?

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    PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:34 pm 
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    Tengado wrote:
    pharazon wrote:
    ¡Papapishu! wrote:
    [*]Only tengado used the epiglottal stop />\/, and only CGreathouse had an epiglottal fricative /H\/.

    Did they contrast them with pharyngeals? Apparently most supposed pharyngeals are often actually epiglottal, so it's really only cool if you contrast the two.

    There isn't a pharyngeal stop for me to contrast with, is there?


    Well no.


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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:21 am 
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    The reason why /p_<, t_<, k_</ are rare is that they sound just like /p_>, t_>, k_>/. Without the voiced implosives, they probably turn into /_>/ fairly quickly... When you have both voiced and voiceless implosives, the voiced implosives are what "support" the voiceless ones, just like you probably can have /H/ without the supporting vowel /y/. Possibly that a change from /_</ to /_>/ tries to cover all the concerned consonants and fails because /b_>,
    d_>, g_>/ are really hard to pronounce.

    I can't remember but I think there was an indian language with voiceless implosives, with roughly the same system as igbo (ie /p b p_h b_h p_< b_</).

    I wonder is if there's a natlang with voiced implosives but voiceless ejectives (sounds relatively plausible).


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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:54 am 
    Lebom
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    pharazon wrote:
    Tengado wrote:
    There isn't a pharyngeal stop for me to contrast with, is there?


    Well no.

    Xhin says it's possible :mrgreen:

    More seriously, wikipedia says they are "thought to be impossible", which implies that they might not be, and they even have a symbol.....

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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:39 am 
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    Regarding voiceless implosives: Ngiti (Nilo-Saharan) is said to have /b_<_0 d_<_0 J\_<_0/ contrasting with /b_< d_< J\_</. I don't know any examples of voiceless implosives contrasting with ejectives though.

    MadBrain wrote:
    /b_>, d_>, g_>/ are really hard to pronounce.


    More like impossible. You're trying to do two things with your glottis at once.

    MadBrain wrote:
    I wonder is if there's a natlang with voiced implosives but voiceless ejectives (sounds relatively plausible).


    That's actually very common.


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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:19 am 
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    MadBrain wrote:
    I wonder is if there's a natlang with voiced implosives but voiceless ejectives (sounds relatively plausible).

    Are you aware that human anatomy, in combination with the way ejectives are articulated, makes voicing impossible?

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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:04 am 
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    Wow, thanks for the compilation ¡Papapishu!. That's a nice list!


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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:16 am 
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    Miekko wrote:
    MadBrain wrote:
    I wonder is if there's a natlang with voiced implosives but voiceless ejectives (sounds relatively plausible).

    Are you aware that human anatomy, in combination with the way ejectives are articulated, makes voicing impossible?

    I now am.

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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:12 am 
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    Aaaw, ended, just when I want to participate with the phonology of Saca and Shãda, and they seems to have some rather unusual consonants too.

    Quote:
    -Only kodé used linguolabials (/t_N d_N T_N/). They're found in some languages of Vanuatu, and apparently developed out of original bilabials when followed by a front vowel. And they're fairly easy to pronounce, so I wonder why more people haven't used them.

    - Nobody used any non-alveolar lateral affricates! Dahalo has a palatal ejective /c_L_>/, and Zulu has a velar ejective /k_L\_>/. Now these are cool sounds.

    - Only Nuntar (/c_C J\_j\/) and JQP (/c_C_>/) used palatal affricates. These, too, are reasonably common, though I don't know how common contrasting them with /c J\/ is.

    - Only JohnQPublik used retroflex affricates (/t`_s` d`_z`/). These are reasonably common in the real world.

    - Only Pie Man used the labiodental nasal /F/, but that's okay since I don't know of any languages that actually use it.


    Saca have complete retroflex and palatal sets, including lateral affricate and fricative. They also have Linguolabials, and Palatovelars.

    Shãda have Labiodental nasals. Also lateral affricate and fricative, both in normal and pharyngealized form.

    But anyway, great job!

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    PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:11 am 
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    TzirTzi wrote:
    Cool! :D very usefull list. I'd never heard of the velar-aspiration...


    Well, to be fair, it's not phonemic in Lakhota. [pˣ tˣ kˣ] (or however they're conventionally transcribed) are allophones of the normal aspirates /pʰ tʰ kʰ/ before a, ą, į, and ų. Unlike normal aspirates, which have glottal friction, the velar aspirates have (as their name suggests) velar friction. You can hear examples here.

    Apparently, Navajo has it too, at least for /tʰ/.

    EDIT: Also, no one has mentioned the glottalized pharyngeal fricative/approximant of many Salishan languages: /ʕ’/. Yes, it contrasts with plain /ʕ/.

    EDIT2: Papapishu has pointed out to me that the Lakhota velar aspirates actually do contrast with the glottal ones, although only very marginally: before /e/, and in certain morphophonemic environments.


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    PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:24 am 
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    ¡Papapishu! wrote:
    [snip]


    My own favorite "exotic" sounds are linguo-labials and lateral plosives. But I don't think I'll use them in my first conlang.

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    PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:55 pm 
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    TomHChappell wrote:
    My own favorite "exotic" sounds are linguo-labials and lateral plosives. But I don't think I'll use them in my first conlang.

    Aren't lateral plosives impossible by definition (unless you mean laterally released)? Lateral means there's more airflow round the sides of the tongue than in the centre, whereas plosive means the airflow is stopped altogether.


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