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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:27 pm 
Avisaru
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With apologies to Janko;

How many boardmembers have developed kinterms in your conlangs?

For primary kin I take the following fifteen. (I realize not all of them might exist in every conculture (e.g. "godfather" and "blood-brother"); and in some concultures some of them I've called "primary" might be secondary and vice versa (e.g. "father" and "mother's brother"). Also, not all of these will have different words (e.g. "older brother" and "younger brother") in every conculture.)

--- genetic kin ---
Father
Mother
Older Brother
Older Sister
Younger Brother
Younger Sister
Son
Daughter
--- fictive kin ---
Husband
Wife
Godfather
Godmother
Godson
Goddaughter
Blood-Brother

<EDIT>:
In some cultures "Firestick Father" might be used instead of "Godfather".
In others, "Name Father" might be used instead of "Godfather".
Some cultures might use "Oath-Brother" instead of "Blood-Brother".
And so on.
The 18th-century English author, Edward Gibbon (1737-1794), used the term "Father-In-Law" to refer to an adoptive father or fictive father, even moreso than for "spouse's father"; and used the term "Son-In-Law" for an adoptive son or fictive son, even moreso than for "daughter's husband".
</EDIT>

A secondary kinsman is the primary kinsman of a primary kinsman. Your conlang probably has or will need words for many (if not most) kinds of secondary kinsmen, too. There may not be quite 225 of them, since you may leave out husbands of males and wives of females and blood-brothers of females. In some concultures perhaps these would be needed.

<EDIT>:
In modern American English a term is arising, "baby-daddy", meaning "my baby's daddy" i.e. "child's father", which is not necessarily the same as "husband". This ("baby-daddy") is a secondary kinterm, rather than a fictive primary kinterm.
</EDIT>

In some cultures a man helps raise his sisters' children rather than his wives' children; and his heir is his oldest sister's oldest son, not his wife's oldest son (who may or may not be his own oldest son). In such cultures "sister's son" could possibly be considered primary while "son" would be considered secondary; actually "son" wouldn't exist as such, instead it would be "wife's son". In such cultures "father" wouldn't be primary -- it might be replaced by "mother's husband" -- while "mother's oldest brother" would be primary.

In some cultures a father's brother is a father and a mother's sister is a mother. In these cultures a father's wife is a mother and a mother's husband is a father, so a brother, a half-brother (whether father's son or mother's son), and a step-brother (whether father's wife's son or mother's husband's son), are all just "brother".

In yet other cultures a careful distinction is made, not only between full-brothers and half-brothers, but also between the two kinds of half-brother; same father but different mother, or same mother but different father.

I'd like to hear as much as you feel about telling us about terms for secondary kin in your conlang, if you have any. You ought to be able to eventually put together a list (yeah, I know, I ought to as well, but I haven't yet); if there are fewer than 100 terms on it, I'd like to see it. You might not feel like posting the whole thing here (but if there are less than 25 terms I hope you will); maybe you'd rather post a URL where we can find it.

EDIT:
In English, a godparent's child or a parent's godchild was a "godsib", from which we get "gossip".
In Spanish, a godchild's father or a child's godfather is a "compadre".
</EDIT>


While most natlangs have terms for some tertiary kin (primary kin of secondary kin, or secondary kin of primary kin); and many have a few terms for quaternary kin (secondary kin of secondary kin); probably most don't have a complete list for tertiary kin, and most don't have any simple terms for kin more distant than quaternary kin.

But Turkish, for instance, has a term for "son's wife's father" or "daughter's husband's father".
And English "abuses" the term "brother-in-law" to include "sibling's spouse's brother" and "spouse's sister's husband", which are tertiary kin, even though technically "brother-in-law" applies only to secondary kin (spouse's brother and sister's husband).

If your conlang has any special terms for any tertiary kin, I'd like to hear them. Chances are a complete list of terms for all tertiary relationships would be too bulky to post here; but you might post a URL that would direct us to the entire list, if you have one and want to.

-----
Tom H.C. in MI


Last edited by TomHChappell on Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:15 pm 
Sanci
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[superseded by post on page 6]

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:34 pm 
Sanno
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In my current project, Proto-Lentic, the kin terms that I've come up with so far are as follows:

*táto father
*mamî mother
*pʰeró brother, maternal cousin
*relî sister, maternal cousin
*mankî maternal aunt
*tátko maternal uncle
*ʔāstî maternal grandmother
*ʔāstó maternal grandfather
*tátlo paternal uncle, paternal grandfather
*tátlī paternal aunt, paternal grandmother
*núro son, sister's son
*tílja daughter, sister's daughter
*nútlo daughter's son
*tédla daughter's daughter
*núdro son's son, brother's son
*kʰalî son's daughter, brother's daughter
*téglo, *téglī paternal cousin, second cousin, kinsperson by marriage
*ʔámamī wife's mother
*westjá wife
*westó husband

Proto-Lentic society was matrilinear and matrifocal, as I've tried to suggest by the kin terms. It doesn't really match up entirely with any kinship systems I know of from Earth, either.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:01 pm 
Lebom
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...


Last edited by 캉탁 on Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:36 pm 
Sanci
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The system used in my language is rather artificial but I don't claim it to be otherwise. The terms are built off of these basic elements:
ma: female
pa: male
vue: parent
zo: sibling
kae: child
dau: spouse

These elements can be strung together right-branchingly to produce terms for more complex relationships. Examples:
kaezovue = parent's sibling's child = cousin;
zoma = female sibling = sister;
vuemavuepa = male parent's female parent = paternal grandmother;
dauvuepa = male parent's spouse = step-mother;
kaepazovuevuevue = parent's parent's parent's sibling's male child = male 3rd cousin once removed.

There are no such terms for godparents etc., and terms for elder or younger siblings just use an adjective. (until I decide otherwise, that is :D )

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:40 pm 
Niš
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in Extmws in breaks down like this:

Father sfettèn
Mother amà or anà
Older Brother jlellaà
Older Sister famà or fanà
Younger Brother jlynttèn
Younger Sister famynttàn
Son hsáawsà
Daughter hséeymè

Husband à-ámlámlà
Wife è-ámlàmlà
Godfather claneettèn
Godmother clanaamà
Godson clhsáawsà
Goddaughter clhséeymè

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:39 pm 
Niš
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Guþlansk:

Father fadar (formal); atta
Mother áiþei /eiTai/
Older Brother bróþar /broTar\/
Older Sister systar /sistar\/
Younger Brother bróþar
Younger Sister systar
Son sunus (grown); baúr /bOur\/(child, boy)
Daughter daúhtar /dOuhtar\/
Grandfather awa /aw@/
Grandmother awó
Cousin niþjo (f); niþjis (m)

Husband aba
Wife kwinó /kwIno/; kwens /kwEns/
Godfather gudfadar /g2dfadar/
Godmother gudáiþei
Godson gudbaúr
Goddaughter guddaúhtar

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:46 pm 
Avisaru
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Dewrad wrote:
Proto-Lentic society was matrilinear and matrifocal, as I've tried to suggest by the kin terms. It doesn't really match up entirely with any kinship systems I know of from Earth, either.


This doesn't match Proto-Lentic as you've stated here, but:
Have you ever heard of "Diagonal" kinship systems?

Here's how a diagonal system would work in a patrilineal society.

In some patrilineal societies, a woman uses the same term to refer to any two male relatives who belong to the same "line" of father-to-son descent. Thus she has one relationship to her father and her brothers (and also to her father's father and her brothers' sons); and a different relationship to her husband(s) and her sons (and also to her husband's father and her sons' sons). But the same root word is used for "husband" and "son", just as the same root word is used for "father" and "brother".

Some Native North American peoples had such a system; I think maybe the Crow (Absarokee)?

Here's how a diagonal system would work in a matrilineal society.
In some matrilineal societies, a man uses the same term to refer to any two female relatives who belong to the same "line" of mother-to-daughter descent. Thus he has one relationship to his mother and his sisters (and also to his mother's mother and his sisters' daughters); and a different relationship to his wife(or wives) and his daughters (and also to his wife's mother and his daughters' daughters). But the same root word is used for "wife" and "daughter", just as the same root word is used for "mother" and "sister".

Some Native North American peoples had such a system; I think maybe the Navajo (Dineh)?.

---------
Thanks,
---------
Tom H.C. in MI


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:55 pm 
Avisaru
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Everyone please note I've added some "EDIT:" text to my original post. It could clear up some confusion, (or, on the other hand, it could be quite unnecessary; you tell me! :) )

Nuntarin (Arêndron),
Dewrad (Proto-Lentic),
Sano (Qatama),
Tmeister,
Shigeru (Extmws),
Uitlander (Guþlansk),
and anyone I accidentally left out by typographical error:

Thanks very much!

I know some of you have already done so, but those who haven't, if and when you can and want to, please visit the "Colorterms In Your Conlang" thread here on this same forum.

-----
Tom H.C. in MI


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:56 pm 
Niš
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Zzarnildarciz -

llaet - Parent
tlicVOTna - Sibling

There are a few synonyms for these words, but there are no other kinship terms, as I dont plan to incude any. I imagine Zzarnildarciz speakers don't really flesh out kin relationsips that often. We don't even have last names.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:40 pm 
Sanci
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TomHChappell wrote:
Everyone please note I've added some "EDIT:" text to my original post. It could clear up some confusion, (or, on the other hand, it could be quite unnecessary; you tell me! :) )

The clarification about "godfather" etc. was unnecessary. When I said my people don't have the concept of godparenthood, I meant they don't have that precise concept or any equivalent. 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:41 pm 
Lebom
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Faranit:
Toeh -father (formal and informal)
Nimih - mother (formal)
Noeh - mother (informal, mommy)
Hehim - sister
Tihim - brother
Hovim - sybling or close friend
Toekih - uncle (ety: father-young)
Nibkeih - aunt (ety: mother-young)
Toebit - grandmother (ety: mother-oldest)
Nibit - grandfather (ety: father-oldest)

Poeleizih Dialect:
Nilaeh - paternal aunt (ety: aunt-better)
Neilhaeh - paternal grandmother (ety: grandmother-better)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:15 am 
Avisaru
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leonsherlock wrote:
Zzarnildarciz -
llaet - Parent
tlicVOTna - Sibling
There are a few synonyms for these words, but there are no other kinship terms, as I dont plan to incude any. I imagine Zzarnildarciz speakers don't really flesh out kin relationsips that often.

Goodness! (And, Thanks, btw).
Is this rather similar to the "Hawaiian System", where kinship terms express only how many generations apart the speaker is from the referent?
Shouldn't Zzarnildarciz have a term for "child"?

leonsherlock wrote:
We don't even have last names.

The Angles and Saxons, when they first came into England, also didn't have "last names"; but they had a kinship system.
Most cultures have kinship systems; most don't have "surnames" or "family names".


Nuntarin wrote:
The clarification about "godfather" etc. was unnecessary. When I said my people don't have the concept of godparenthood, I meant they don't have that precise concept or any equivalent. 8)

Thanks.


schwhatever wrote:
Faranit:
Toeh -father (formal and informal)
Nimih - mother (formal)
Noeh - mother (informal, mommy)
Hehim - sister
Tihim - brother
Hovim - sibling or close friend
Toekih - uncle (ety: father-young)
Nibkeih - aunt (ety: mother-young)
Toebit - grandmother (ety: mother-oldest)
Nibit - grandfather (ety: father-oldest)

Poeleizih Dialect:
Nilaeh - paternal aunt (ety: aunt-better)
Neilhaeh - paternal grandmother (ety: grandmother-better)

Wow! Interesting.
Thanks.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:26 pm 
Smeric
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Alas, this is not Ayeri's strong suite. I really have to have a look at this again I guess. I'll give you the German words instead and the few Ayeri ones I have.

--- genetic kin ---

Father Vater / badan
Mother Mutter / mahava
Brother Bruder / netu
Sister Schwester / kina
Son Sohn / yan (same as "boy", like French fils)
Daughter Tochter / layra (same as "girl", like French fille)

--- fictive kin ---

Husband (Ehe)Mann / ayon (same as "man", like German Mann)
Wife (Ehe)Frau / envan (same as "woman", like German Frau)
Godfather Patenonkel
Godmother Patentante
Godson Patensohn
Goddaughter Patentochter
Blood-Brother Blutsbruder

<snip> (informative as usual, thanks for that)

What about uncle and aunt as well as the grand-parents, btw?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:55 pm 
Avisaru
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guitarplayer wrote:
Alas, this is not Ayeri's strong suite. I really have to have a look at this again I guess. I'll give you the German words instead and the few Ayeri ones I have.
--- genetic kin ---
Father Vater / badan
Mother Mutter / mahava
Brother Bruder / netu
Sister Schwester / kina
Son Sohn / yan
Daughter Tochter / layra
--- fictive kin ---

Husband (Ehe)Mann / ayon
Wife (Ehe)Frau / envan
Godfather Patenonkel
Godmother Patentante
Godson Patensohn
Goddaughter Patentochter
Blood-Brother Blutsbruder

Thanks!


guitarplayer wrote:
What about uncle and aunt as well as the grand-parents, btw?

If you read the original post through to where I talk about "secondary relatives";
Among other things, I wrote:
words to the effect that:
A secondary relative is a primary relative of a primary relative.
Some cultures make Father primary and Uncle secondary, while others make Uncle primary and Father secondary. There may be other pairs of terms which alternate this way.
Also sometimes a culture will have a secondary genetic kinterm which is synonymous with some other culture's primary fictive kinterm. (E.g. "baby-daddy" and "husband".)

In any case:

A grandfather could be a father's father or a mother's father, and the language may have two different words; but it would be a secondary kinterm, or they would be secondary kinterms.

A grandmother could be a father's mother or a mother's mother, and the language could have two different words; but it would be a secondary kinterm, or they would be secondary kinterms.

An uncle could be a father's brother or a mother's brother, and the language may have two different words; but it would be a secondary kinterm, or they would be secondary kinterms.
An uncle could also be a father's sister's husband or a mother's sister's husband; the language may, or may not, have one or two words for these relationships separate from the first one or two; but it would be a tertiary kinterm, or they would be tertiary kinterms.

An aunt could be a father's sister or a mother's sister, and the language may have two different words; but it would be a secondary kinterm, or they would be secondary kinterms.
An aunt could also be a father's brother's wife or a mother's brother's wife; the language may, or may not, have one or two words for these relationships separate from the first one or two; but it would be a tertiary kinterm, or they would be tertiary kinterms.

Note that for some languages, "Father's Brother" = "Father", but "Mother's Brother" is not the same as any primary, nor any other secondary, kinterm; and for some languages, "Mother's Sister" = "Mother", but "Father's Sister" is not the same as any primary, nor any other secondary, kinterm. Some languages have both of these "equations".

Also note that for some languages, like English,
"Sister's Husband" = "Wife's Brother" ("brother-in-law");
but some languages distinguish them.
And for some languages, like English,
"Brother's Wife" = "Husband's Sister" ("sister-in-law");
but some languages distinguish them.

It is my impression, whether correct or incorrect, that most languages have a complete, or an almost-complete set of secondary kinterms, though some don't necessarily make distinctions as fine as others.

Tertiary kinterms frequently don't form a "complete set", however. But maybe sometimes they do. Unless your conlang's set of tertiary kinterms drops some distinctions, it is probably too voluminous to post here. If you think it will fit here, go ahead and post it here; if not, please post a URL where we can see it, if you have one.

It is my impression that most languages do not have single-word terms, other than generics like "relative" or "-in-law" or "cousin", for relationships more distant than quaternary.

-------
I hope that helps!

--------
Thanks.

------
Have fun!

-----
Tom H.C. in MI


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:23 pm 
Niš
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TomHChappell wrote:
leonsherlock wrote:
Zzarnildarciz -
llaet - Parent
tlicVOTna - Sibling
There are a few synonyms for these words, but there are no other kinship terms, as I dont plan to incude any. I imagine Zzarnildarciz speakers don't really flesh out kin relationsips that often.

Goodness! (And, Thanks, btw).
Is this rather similar to the "Hawaiian System", where kinship terms express only how many generations apart the speaker is from the referent?
Shouldn't Zzarnildarciz have a term for "child"?

leonsherlock wrote:
We don't even have last names.

The Angles and Saxons, when they first came into England, also didn't have "last names"; but they had a kinship system.
Most cultures have kinship systems; most don't have "surnames" or "family names".


Zzarnildarciz names are composed of 3 elements, and one element completley changes when someone reaches the age of 15.

A child's name is at first, a modified form of their parent's name (the parent which shares their gender). Their middle name is a descriptive name or nickname. It's only used by friends. The last name indicates what city you come from.

At the age of 15, children create their own first names. Unlike other first names in other cultures, there are no common sets of names, nor do the names stem from an actual word or have any sort of meaning (they can sometimes have meaning, but this is seen as pretentious and not widley practiced). There are no names "girls names" or "boys names". Names are a unique creation of the individual, and how it sounds to the individual is very important.

Examples of first names (That I have given to people):
ddraeNOCloi
aec-noilAR
arg-zvorltNAIzic

See, these names don't mean anything, and they don't really sound like any other zzarnildarciz word.

So their "last name" really doesnt define kin relationships. It's just used to tell where you're from, to reduce the already small probability that someome has the same first name as you.

The young child's name however acts as a kinship system of sorts. After the age of 15, people are still asked for their original name (which indicates who your parent's are) on forms and such. This can be used to trace back ancestry to some extent, though I imagine most people who speak zzarnildarciz would not be interested in finding out who they are related to. The nuclear family tends to be emphasized, and legally, ancestry means very little. For instance, when someone dies without a will, their inheritence is not offered to their closest remaining relatives, but collected by the government and distributed equally to the population in tax returns.

As for the word child - there is none. You simply say "I gave birth to this person" rather than "This person is my child".

Also, nobody really talks about "Generations". If you are talking about a grandparent for instance, you might say "Parent to my parent", but thats not so much of a kinship term. Grandparents arent really seen as part of the family.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:58 pm 
Avisaru
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leonsherlock wrote:
Zzarnildarciz names are composed of 3 elements, and one element completley changes when someone reaches the age of 15.

A child's name is at first, a modified form of their parent's name (the parent which shares their gender). Their middle name is a descriptive name or nickname. It's only used by friends. The last name indicates what city you come from.

At the age of 15, children create their own first names. Unlike other first names in other cultures, there are no common sets of names, nor do the names stem from an actual word or have any sort of meaning (they can sometimes have meaning, but this is seen as pretentious and not widley practiced). There are no names "girls names" or "boys names". Names are a unique creation of the individual, and how it sounds to the individual is very important.

Examples of first names (That I have given to people):
ddraeNOCloi
aec-noilAR
arg-zvorltNAIzic

See, these names don't mean anything, and they don't really sound like any other zzarnildarciz word.

So their "last name" really doesnt define kin relationships. It's just used to tell where you're from, to reduce the already small probability that someome has the same first name as you.

This is extremely interesting.
"Surnames" usually start out as "nicknames", and become "family names" only over time.
For instance the Julii clan had, as one of their personal names, "Caius". A guy in that clan might be named "Caius Julius". But as time went on there might be several different "Caii Julii"; so, some of them were nicknamed "Curly" = "Caesar". After a while this became the "family" name of a family within the Julii; all of them were named "X Julius Caesar" to distinguish them from the "X Julius Y"s for various Y other than "Caesar" (other members of the same clan who, by chance, had the same "first" name but weren't quite as closely related to the Caesars). I don't know whether the nickname "Curly" could have started out as a joke; but by the earliest time I know of, it had become one, because the most famous "Caius Julius Caesar" was bald. :wink:

Popular nicknames are, say, "Big Tom Chappell", "Little Tom Chappell", "Fat Tom Chappell", "Thin Tom Chappell", "Tom Chappell from Maine" (the rich one), "Tom Chappell from Michigan" (me), "Tom Chappell the Aviation Actuary" (not me), "Tom Chappell the Computing Guru" (also not me), and so on. In other words, aside from personal descriptions such as color of hair or eyes or some such thing, the popular ones are locations (the Tom who lives over by the chapel, or, the Tom from that family that moved here from Aix-la-Chapelle) and occupations (Tom Programmer, Tom Mathematician, Tom Welfare-Recipient) and the personal names of relatives (Tom Shelly's dad, Tom Robert's son).

After a few to several generations, people start using these nicknames as family names. If the population grows, or there aren't many names to go around, they may begin needing three names instead of just two; that happened in Rome, and appears to be happening in some Scandinavian countries. Some of those countries are just making up new names. The Hebrews in the historical books of the Hebrew Bible always said "X son of Y son of Z son of W". People in Spanish-speaking countries tend to throw in your mother's maiden name. And so on.


leonsherlock wrote:
The young child's name however acts as a kinship system of sorts. After the age of 15, people are still asked for their original name (which indicates who your parent's are) on forms and such. This can be used to trace back ancestry to some extent, though I imagine most people who speak zzarnildarciz would not be interested in finding out who they are related to. The nuclear family tends to be emphasized, and legally, ancestry means very little. For instance, when someone dies without a will, their inheritence is not offered to their closest remaining relatives, but collected by the government and distributed equally to the population in tax returns.

As for the word child - there is none. You simply say "I gave birth to this person" rather than "This person is my child".

That seems very exotic. Especially since fathers claim their sons and sons are named after their fathers; fathers do not give birth to their sons.
Does the word for "sibling" mean only "we had the same mother"?
Or does it mean "we shared both parents"?
Or does it mean "we shared at least one parent"?
Or does it mean only "we had the same father"?


leonsherlock wrote:
Also, nobody really talks about "Generations".

As far as I know the users of the Hawaiian system don't talk about generations either; but the anthropologists who study them do, and can't help noticing that their kinterms can be translated as "X generations younger" or "X generations older".

In the Hawaiian system, the terms
"Father" and "Father's Brother" and "Mother's Brother"
are all the same term.
In the Hawaiian system, the terms
"Mother" and "Mother's Sister" and "Father's Sister"
are all the same term.

So, as you would expect based on that, the terms
"Father's Father", "Father's Father's Brother", "Father's Mother's Brother",
"Mother's Father", "Mother's Father's Brother", "Mother's Mother's Brother",
are all the same term;
and the terms
"Father's Mother", "Father's Father's Sister", "Father's Mother's Sister",
"Mother's Mother", "Mother's Father's Sister", "Mother's Mother's Sister",
are all the same term.

Also, in the Hawaiian system, the terms
"Son", "Brother's Son", and "Sister's Son"
are all the same term;
and the terms
"Daughter", "Brother's Daughter", and "Sister's Daughter"
are all the same term.

So, as you would expect, based on that, the terms
"Son's Son", "Daughter's Son", "Brother's Son's Son", "Brother's Daughter's Son", "Sister's Son's Son", and "Sister's Daughter's Son",
are all the same term;
and, the terms
"Son's Daughter", "Daughter's Daughter", "Brother's Son's Daughter", "Brother's Daughter's Daughter", "Sister's Son's Daughter", and "Sister's Daughter's Daughter",
are all the same term.

That's what I meant by saying, in the Hawaiian system, the kinterms basically just tell how many generations apart you are. It's not because the Hawaiians actually discuss generations, nor because they even have a word for "generation".


leonsherlock wrote:
If you are talking about a grandparent for instance, you might say "Parent to my parent", but thats not so much of a kinship term.

Right; it's more of a phrasal secondary kinship term, than the kind of one-word kinship term I was looking for.


leonsherlock wrote:
Grandparents aren't really seen as part of the family.

Man, Christmas and Thanksgiving and New Year's and birthdays must be a real drag, especially for those under 15! :cry:
(Among Modern Americans they are usually not part of the household, but are part of the family.)
I expect (I have no actual evidence nor statistics) that this would be an exotic feature in a RL culture.

Thanks,
--------
Tom H.C. in MI


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:45 pm 
Niš
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To clear some things up -
Fathers do say they gave birth to their children (though they can not technically give birth). The reason is, to say "gave birth" in zzarnildarciz, the word ODDRa is used. ODDRa actually means to "institute life" or to "animate". Thus, it can apply to the male's role of fertilization, and the female's role of giving birth.

Nicknames - the nickname or middle name have lasted many generations without turning into surnames. The reason is that nobody needs to trace back their ancestry. The Nuclear family is the only perceived kin group. The extended family, including ancestors (besides one's parents) are thought to be completley separate. Not part of the household. Not part of the family.

The word for "Sibling" means you share one parent with someone. It could be a father or mother.

Children do not often meet their grandparents. They may see them once in a while, but know them as "That person my parent is related to". There is no relationship. Same goes for aunts, uncles, cousins, ect.

On the imaginary island of Zzarnildarciz, Christmas, Thanksgiving, and other holidays are not celebrated. New years is celebrated (Though new years eve is not). Besides new years, there are the 4 other annual festivals (making 5), but these are either celebrated by the community as a whole, or by the individual. There are no holidays celebrated where one must be with family.

I've actually been developing the calendar. It's similar to the Iranian calendar - it's completley solar, and it begins on whenever the spring equinox occurs in the day (and a leap day happens when it takes place in the afternoon/night). This makes it extremley more accurate than the gregorian calendar, though less predictable. There are 15 months with 24 days each and 3 day weeks (Third day is a day of rest). Along with 5 festivals (not considered to be part of any month) this makes 365. This system was done because the numbers 15, 5, and 3 have great symbolic significance.

Thank you very much for showing me how the hawaiian system works. It's really fascinating!


Edit: Mabey Im unclear using the term "nuclear family". That seems to imply a family has two parents and their children. But single parent families are just as common. In this case, children take the modified form of their only parent regardless of gender until 15 years. Single parent families are not seen as "temporary" or "unsustainable" like in other cultures. Of course nobody can deny it's difficult. Most single parent families in zzarnildarciz contain only a single child, however.

Edit: Actually, I just had a great idea, and I might decide to compleyly change the whole "family idea" all together. Let me see...... As one can tell, this is still a work in progress as Im still coming up with ideas


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:22 am 
Niš
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Code:
--- genetic kin ---
Father- ekti
Mother- ác'ta
Older Brother- edos ešto (edešto
Older Sister- edos asti (edasti)
Younger Brother- eteôs ešto (etešto
Younger Sister- eteôs asti (etasti)
Son- icto
Daughter- ec'da

--- fictive kin ---
Husband- aekt
Wife- eoc'di


All of these words were derived from the root *āk'het, meaning "a member of a family or clan".

EDIT: further delving reveals an ultimate "translation"- *āk'het=blood. cf. the derivative term iktir of the same meaning

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Last edited by mavonduri on Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:16 am 
Smeric
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Tom: I didn't read all rest of the original post, that's true. Sorry.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:16 am 
Lebom
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In Mèlw there are terms for paternal ascending relatives but none for maternal (Mèlw culture is extremely patrilocal and children usually don't know their maternal grandparents). It has no words for maternal uncles or aunts either as they are also not part of the known family. Because melw society is not based on the nuclear family it has a wide range of tertiary terms and a lot of terms that doesn't distinguish between bloodkin and socialrelations.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:41 am 
Avisaru
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leonsherlock wrote:
Fathers do say they gave birth to their children (though they can not
---CUT interesting paragraph---
Nicknames - the nickname or middle name have lasted many generations
---CUT another interesting paragraph---
The word for "Sibling" means you share one parent with someone. ...
Children do not often meet their grandparents. They may see them once
---CUT another interesting paragraph---
On the imaginary island of Zzarnildarciz, Christmas, Thanksgiving, and other holidays are not celebrated. ... Besides new years, there are 4 annual festivals, ... There are no holidays celebrated where one must be with family.

Thank you.


leonsherlock wrote:
I've actually been developing the calendar. It's similar to the Iranian calendar - it's completley solar, and it begins on whenever the spring equinox occurs in the day (and a leap day happens when it takes place in the afternoon/night). This makes it extremley more accurate than the gregorian calendar, though less predictable. There are 15 months with 24 days each and 3 day weeks (Third day is a day of rest). Along with 5 festivals (not considered to be part of any month) this makes 365. This system was done because the numbers 15, 5, and 3 have great symbolic significance.

Thanks. That sounds interesting.
Is there a "the calendar in your conlang" thread? Should I start one?


leonsherlock wrote:
Thank you very much for showing me how the hawaiian system works.

You're welcome.

leonsherlock wrote:
It's really fascinating!

Thanks for saying so.

-----
Tom H.C. in MI


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:44 am 
Avisaru
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mavonduri wrote:
--- genetic kin ---
Father- ekti
Mother- ac'ta
Older Brother- edos ešto
Older Sister- edos asti
Younger Brother- eteôs ešto
Younger Sister- eteôs asti
Son- icto
Daughter- ec'da

--- fictive kin ---
Husband- aekt
Wife- eoc'di

All of these words were derived from the root āk'het, meaning "a member of a family or clan"

Thanks. What's the name of your conlang?

Radagast wrote:
In Mèlw there are terms for paternal ascending relatives but none for maternal (Mèlw culture is extremely patrilocal and children usually don't know their maternal grandparents). It has no words for maternal uncles or aunts either as they are also not part of the known family. Because melw society is not based on the nuclear family it has a wide range of tertiary terms and a lot of terms that doesn't distinguish between bloodkin and socialrelations.

Sounds worth hearing more about. I look forward to it.

Thanks,
-----
Tom H.C. in MI


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:50 am 
Avisaru
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I don't quite understand what is being asked about here...


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:33 pm 
Smeric
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vegfarandi wrote:
I don't quite understand what is being asked about here...

Your con/natlang's kinterms most obviously :mrgreen:. Like, what's the word for dad, mom, brother, uncle, aunt etc. Plus some extra information about how other langs handle this.


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