Kinterms In Your Conlangs (And Natlangs)

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TomHChappell
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Post by TomHChappell »

@Nuntar; Thanks.
@Wycoval; That's great! ZBBers can use the Kissi kinterms as a source-list of things to translate into their own conlangs.

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Post by Rodlox »

Nuntar wrote:I'm taking the liberty of re-posting Rodlox's kinship terms into this topic, since his other post is in C&C and will be purged around the beginning of December (unless there are futher replies, in which case it will still be purged eventually.)

Rodlox, if you have any objection to this, shout at me.


I have no objection.

though I apologize for not posting lately.
MadBrain is a genius.

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Post by Nuntarin »

I decided to finally make my mind up and get down to it, nearly a year after my first post in this thread :) so without any further ado, here are the Arêndron kinship terms.

A brief note of explanation. As I said in my earlier post, this system grew out of a culture in which brothers commonly remained living together, while women moved in with their husbands upon marriage, so certain mergers have occurred in a pattern that isn't quite like any existing kinship system (that I know of) but seems to me to be at least fairly plausible. Also, a man could have more than one wife but a woman could have only one husband (at a time); in Imperial times only around 5% of households were polygamous but the fraction was formerly higher.

There are seventeen basic terms for primary and secondary kin:

1. basat, father / father's brother
2. danda, mother
3. mail, brother / f's b's son
4. zilna, sister / f's b's daughter
5. vûtrin, son / brother's son of male Ego
6. shôlsa, daughter / brother's daughter of male Ego
7. krux, husband
8. shoida, wife
9. arbast, father's father
10. paslar, mother's father
11. ardan, grandmother
12. ngasta, aunt
13. fenkar, mother's brother
14. korlin, nephew / grandson
15. jeuda, niece / granddaughter
16. mailin, male cousin
17. xelûn, female cousin

with the obvious proviso that 14-17 specifically exclude individuals included in categories 3-6. Also, an older sibling's children might be around the same age as Ego, and when this occurred, they might be called mailin and xelûn, not korlin and jeuda.

Arêndron has a productive augmentative and diminutive, and these categories can be applied to some of the above terms to modify them for relative age. In particular, mailom, zilnom and zilnûn respectively mean "older brother", "older sister" and "younger sister". The diminutive of mail is mailin, the same as the word for "male cousin".

Then we have relatives by marriage. There are no unique terms for these (other than krux and shoida); instead, the above terms are extended. As this leads to ambiguity that is sometimes undesirable, a prefix hel- exists to mean "by marriage". (Please, let's not have stupid jokes about phonetic similarities. Every language has some coincidences of this type.) This prefix is never used when addressing a relative by marriage, only when talking about them.

Specifically, the extensions are as follows:

Ego of either sex would address their father's other wife (i.e. who isn't their mother) as ngasta, sister's husband as mailin, son's wife as jeuda or shôlsa, daughter's husband as korlin. The use of shôlsa for "son's wife" was primarily a term of endearment; it would be somewhat affected to refer to her as hel-shôlsa to a third person, but the term did exist and was a way of showing that you felt as emotionally close to them as to a blood daughter. Conversely, to use call one's daughter's husband vûtrin would seem disrespectfully familiar.

Male Ego would address his wife's father as fenkar, wife's mother as ngasta, wife's siblings as mailin and xelûn. Sister's husband was also mailin; older brother's wife was xelûn to an unmarried Ego, but zilna to a married Ego; younger brother's wife was zilna (or zilnûn) in either case.

Female Ego would address her husband's father as basat (but the familiar form baba, based on child-speak, she would reserve for her blood father), her husband's mother as danda (same), and her husband's father's other wife as ngasta. Her husband's sister was xelûn, but she could call her husband's brother mail if he could call her zilna (see above).
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Post by TomHChappell »

Thanks, Rodlox and Nuntar.

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Post by TomHChappell »

-Klaivas- wrote:Sou has a pretty systematic way of expressing relationship, and it works in a system of "up" and "down" (referring to a family tree). "Up" refers to moving upward, i.e. to a parent, and moving "down" refers to a child. The "route" is always the shortest possible (so a sibling would be expressed as being a parent's child, and not a grandparent's grandchild, which would infact be a cousin). The system is as follows:

Code: Select all

Up 0 down 0:    ta      self
Up 0 down 1:    čé      child, son, daughter
Up 0 down 2:    zaxá    grandchild, grandson, granddaughter

Up 1 down 0:    míi     parent, mother, father
Up 1 down 1:    kji     sibling, brother, sister
Up 1 down 2:    padjà   sibling's child, nephew, niece

Up 2 down 0:    téi     grandparent, grandmother, grandfather
Up 2 down 1:    xapa    parent's sibling, aunt, uncle
Up 2 down 2:    zùko    cousin


The male and female suffixes can be added if they need to be distinguished. There are also means of expressing more distant relationships, either by raising the "up", lowering the "down", or both (they must already be of value 2 to be able to be raised/lowered). To raise the "up" by one you add "-ná", and to lower the "down" by one you add "-zé". These can be duplicated.

xapań - great-aunt/great-uncle (up 2+1 down 1 - grandparent's sibling)
zaxáz - great-grandchild (down 2+1)
zùkoz - cousin once removed (up 2+1 down 2+1 - grandparent's sibling's grandchild)
padjàz - nephew/niece's grandchild (up 1 down 2+1+1)

It's also worth noting that each movement counts as a step, so, for example, a cousin is 4 steps (u2d2). The minimum legal (Sou law) distance for children to be made is 6 steps, or 5 steps with 2 direction changes (e.g. u1d2u1, a.k.a. your sister's boyfriend), to avoid mutation. Homosexual incestual sex or incestual sex with contraceptives is legal but usually not practiced or desired (hoorah for psychological evolution).

Realistic/plausible? I don't really care if it's not, I'm just intrigued. Interesting? I hope so. Bleh. Rip it to shreds, folks :)

Yet to come:
- Down -> Up pathways (boyfriends, girlfriends, spice, inlaws, etc.)
- Indications of age (relative and absolute)

-Klaivas- wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:I'm not sure it's realistic, no. At least, there are no systems anything like it, to my knowledge. It seems far too mechanical to me - not having any root word for a sibling, for instance, given how prominent they are in early life. And even in a language with no widespread distinction of gender, I would expect to have two different words available for the two parents, otherwise things could get quite confusing. And for wives and husbands!

"Parent's child, our parent has instructed you to stop eating the toys of the the child of the parent of our parent!" "But parent's child, our parent said it was OK because his children's parent's parent's child has always said we were his FAVOURITE parent's child's children!" "No, parent said to stop!" "Parent said it was OK!" "Parent with a penis said for you to stop!" "Oh, parent with a penis! It was parent with a vagina who said it was OK", "no, parent said that child's parent said that it was the toys of the child of her parent with a vagina that you could eat, not the toys of the child of her parent with a penis! you know they all hate the children of the children of the parent whose child's parent is the parent with a penis that they have!" "Oh!"
:D It's not quite that bad. There are (as shown) 9 different roots, for: self (ta), child (čé), grandchild (zaxá), parent (míi), sibling (kji), niece/nephew (padjà), grandparent (téi), aunt/uncle (xapa) and cousin (zùko), which are normally the only relations mentioned in everyday conversation. I may have gender-specific words for some, too, though the male/female gender affixes tend to do the job alright. The up/down system is more of a way of describing the system than it is actually the way these people think about relations (i.e. they'd think about "kji" as "brother/sister" rather than "child of parent".

If you're speaking about your own parents, siblings and children, they usually have "pet names" (e.g. mother -> mum, father -> dad), with the difference to English being that they're only used to talk about your own parents/siblings/children not others (so you'd always refer to someone else's mother as their "míi" or "míijé", rather than "mái".

The pet names are:
mother - mái
father - mo
brother - sméu or zméu
sister - siài or zài
son - sàtu or or
daughter - sóŋ or zóŋ

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Post by Psykie »

Dhugrid has 42...

zodadida - grand father (fathers side)
zodadima - grand father (mothers side)
zomamida - grand mother (fathers side)
zomamima - grand mother (mothers side)
dadi - father
mami - mother
hidida - uncle (fathers side)
hidima - uncle (mothers side)
himida - aunt (fathers side)
himima - aunt (mothers side)
zidigori - oldest son
digori - older son
digorna - younger son
digornya - youngest son
zimigori - oldest daughter
migori - older daughter
migorna - younger daughter
migornya - youngest daughter
zisamdi - oldest brother
samdi - older brother
sodi - younger brother
zisodi - youngest brother
zisammi - oldest sister
sammi - older sister
somi - younger sister
zisomi - youngest sister
nyidor - husband
nyithidor - husband with children
nyimor - wife
nyithimor - wife with children
dhugridim - blood-brother
dhulunidim - blood-sister

And I just added:
nyuzisamdiva - oldest brothers wife
nyusamdiva - older brothers wife
nyusodiva - younger brothers wife
nyuzisodiva - youngest brothers wife
nyuzisammiva - oldest sisters husband
nyusumiva - older sisters husband
nyusomiva - younger sisters husband
nyuzisomiva - youngest sisters husband
dianu - twin brother
mianu - twin sister

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Post by Yaali Annar »

This is the kinship term of Sundan.

The distinctions in their terms are based on age. For example, instead of mother and father they have "older parent" and "younger parent". As Sundan couples have low number of children (the government issues forced sterilization after third children but this is rarely happened) they have little problem keeping track of their extended family.

It is generally a taboo for a person with the same birthday to marry (usually people get around this by changing their official birthday a day later or prior).

Sibling: madaraq
Twin sibling: qembaran
Younger sibling: siwaji
Older sibling: sikaka

Child: puter
Oldest child: susung
Youngest child: buntut
Grandchildren: anak
Great grandchildren: tsasaw


Parents: matuqa
Older parent: tama
Younger parent: tina
Grandparent: bubut
Great grandparent: mayang
Younger sibling of one parent: buliq (buliq natama, buliq natina)
Older sibling of one parent: panday (panday natama, panday natina)

Cousin: suday
Second cousin: cepuṛ

Child of younger sibling: sinaq
Child of older sibling: pupuy

Spouse: qasawa
Boyfriend/girlfriend: yayang
Calling your boyfriend/girlfriend who are younger than you: diyang
Calling your older boyfriend/girlfriend who are older than you: qayang
Widow(er): mahay
Child in law: nantu
Parent in law : marpuja
The parent of your child in law: bisaṇ

The older sibling of your spouse: sipaṛ
The younger sibling of your spouse: sitsat
The spouse of your older sibling: kakaw
The spouse of your younger sibling: mamay
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Post by Amuere »

My conlang uses a root compounding system for family names and uses gender particles to specify gender.

Gender Particles: U (male),I (Female),E (Neuter/Generic)

Nosorian Family Vocabulary: (Eçi Cuitçhoucresi Noçoroesi)

E zatzat =grandparent(lit. parent-parent)
I zatzat =grandmother
U zatzat =grandfather
E zat = parent
U zat = father
I zat = mother
E cele =child
U cele =son
I cele =daughter
E mig = sibiling
U mig = brother
I mig = sister
E zatmig = parent-sibling
U zatmig = Uncle
I zatmig = Aunt
E zatmigcele = Cousin (lit. parent-sibiling-child)
U zatmigcele = Male cousin
I zatmigcele = Female cousin
E migcele = sibling-child
U migcele = neffew
I migcele = niece
E zatmigcelecele =cousin-child
U zatmigcelecele =male cousin-child
I zatmigcelecele = female cousin-child
E Celecele =grandchild (lit. child-child)
U Celecele = grandson
I Celecele = granddaugther

I'll put more later when Noçore is more developed,and yes I did this all from memory.
Tjalehu ge frulehu, tjea ale stjindamihu? Dime sfraiaknanmi.

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Post by TaylorS »

Eridanian

--- genetic kin ---
Father: Faodr, daod
Mother: Medr, Maom
Brother: Bredr
Sister: Siezdr
Son: Sen
Daughter: Daotr
Cousin: Kezn
Nephew: Neafçu

--- fictive kin ---
Husband: Ezbend
Wife: Waof

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Post by langover94 »

Wow... Those just look like easier phonetic spellings of the English language. (No offense)
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Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

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Post by TomHChappell »

langover94 wrote:Wow... Those just look like easier phonetic spellings of the English language. (No offense)
STaylor's future history has an Anglic (super?-)family of languages, divided into a few (sub?-)families. They're all descended from 20th/21st century English(es) of Earth. Eridanian is one of them.

Look into Eridanian (STaylor can show you where) and the other Anglic languages (if there's much on them yet), and you may find the answers to your objections, or you may find the roots of them and be able to make your point better.

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Post by langover94 »

Oh... I was unaware of that. Sorry :oops: .
"Happiness can be found even in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light."

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Post by 캉탁 »

Kala

    family / kin - tlika
    parent - onata
    grandparent - onataha
    spouse - tlanata
    sibling - uanata
    child - inata
    father / uncle - ota
    mother / aunt - ona
    husband - tla'ota
    wife - tla'ona
    grandfather - otaha
    grandmother - onaha
    brother / cousin - otaua
    sister / cousin - onaua
    boy / son / nephew - ota'i
    girl / daughter / niece - ona'i
    man / masculine / male - tlaka
    woman / feminine / female - naka
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Post by Skomakar'n »

Cafhellyn has pretty few words for this. There is no gender distinction between family members, in that the word for mother and father is the same word, but the words still inflect for their natural gender (both brother and sister translate to pydha, but "the sister" is "o mydha" and "the brother" is "ac mydha".

family; nwnda
father; ar
mother; ar
brother; pydha
sister; pydha
son; cal
daugher; cal
relative; clath (always inflected as masculine, and simply means relative, with no distinction, as in English)

I haven't done more than that. I might add more. I might not.

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Post by maıráí »

Agh! Moi Ku is being revised yet again. New terms to be put up shortly.
Last edited by maıráí on Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:09 pm, edited 10 times in total.

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Post by TomHChappell »

Thanks, langover94, Sano, Skomakar'n, and HelixWitch.

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Post by Serali »

Image

Pretty scripty. :mrgreen:

Image
[quote="Zereskaoate"]I am, however a slave to the boingies. [img]http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x180/Wapo_Gipo_Frogs88/Boingies/th_thsau222jpg-2.gif[/img][/quote]

[img]http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x180/Wapo_Gipo_Frogs88/th_1-1.gif[/img]

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Re: Kinterms In Your Conlangs (And Natlangs)

Post by sirred »

I was directed here for the sake of parallel posting, so:

F: Father M: Mother B: Brother Z: Sister
S: Son D: Daughter H: Husband W: Wife

Code: Select all

English   Term   Chompi   English   Term   Chompi
Father    F      sathi    Uncle     FB     sathi
Mother    M      hsa      Uncle     MB     umiwa
Brother   B      pihe     Aunt      FZ     nechpi
Sister    Z      pihe     Aunt      MZ     hsa

Cousin    FBS    pihe     Cousin    MBS    toja
Cousin    FBD    pihe     Cousin    MBD    tusu
Cousin    FZS    sathi    Cousin    MZS    pihe
Cousin    FZD    nechpi   Cousin    MZD    pihe

Son*      S      toja     Nephew    BS     toja
Daughter* D      tusu     Niece     BD     tusu
Son^      S      waka     Nephew    ZS     waka
Daughter^ D      wete     Niece     ZD     wete

Husband   H      musocha  Wife      W      tahwo

*Male Speaker ^Female Speaker

Pronounciation:
sathi /ˈsat.hi/ hsa /hsa/ umiwa /ʔuˈmi.wa/ pihe /ˈpi.hɛ/ nechpi /ˈnɛt͡ʃ.pi/ toja /'to.ja/
tusu /ˈtu.su/ waka /ˈwa.ka/ wete /ˈwe.te/ musocha /muˈsɔ.t͡sa/ tahwo /ˈta.hʷo/

Notes: The Chompi practice what is known as Crow kinship. This contrasts with English which used what is known as Eskimo kinship. In short, Eskimo kinship focuses on the nuclear family, whereas Crow kinship focuses on the mother's side. An interesting feature of this is that essentially, a man calls his son and daughter "cousin" because his duties are to his sister's children whom he calls "son" and "daughter". A woman still calls her children "son" and "daughter". Further, some of what we would consider cousins are lumped in with siblings while others are not. Chompi does not have a word for "brother" or for "sister". Instead, it uses a general term roughly meaning "sibling". This is unrelated to its kinship scheme.
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Re: Kinterms In Your Conlangs (And Natlangs)

Post by TomHChappell »

Thanks, @serali.
Thanks, @sirred.

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Re: Kinterms In Your Conlangs (And Natlangs)

Post by dhok »

Having sat in on a class a few weeks ago at UBama about kinship systems, I'm tempted to give my IE-like Northern family a bit of flavor by adding in a Crow-Omaha system.

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Re: Kinterms In Your Conlangs (And Natlangs)

Post by TomHChappell »

dhokarena56 wrote:Having sat in on a class a few weeks ago at UBama about kinship systems, I'm tempted to give my IE-like Northern family a bit of flavor by adding in a Crow-Omaha system.


Crow and Omaha both?
Aren't they sort of "opposites"?
I know they're both "diagonal" kinship systems.
But, I thought:
In one, one is related to everyone in any matriline not their own in the same way;
in the other one is related to everyone in any patriline not their own in the same way.

(So, basically, you're related to matrilines or patrilines rather than to individual people, except the system is more detailed in your own matriline or patriline as the case may be.)

There are cultures in which both matrilineal unilineal-descent-groups and patrilineal unilineal-descent-groups operate concurrently and independently. But I don't know of any that have both the Crow and the Omaha (if I'm not confused about those terms) concurrently.

Would it be possible? At the moment I can't think why not.

(As for my conculture the Adpihi have three systems of unilineal descent groups; patrilines, matrilines, and the [color=#800000]Mapudungu Mundugumor "rope". IRL don't the Mapudungu Mundugumor either have matrilines or have patrilines, in addition to the "rope" if indeed Meade wasn't wrong about the "rope"?)[/color]
(edit: their kinterm system is Iroquois-type rather than Sudanese-type.)
Last edited by TomHChappell on Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Kinterms In Your Conlangs (And Natlangs)

Post by Psykie »

TomHChappell wrote:
dhokarena56 wrote:Having sat in on a class a few weeks ago at UBama about kinship systems, I'm tempted to give my IE-like Northern family a bit of flavor by adding in a Crow-Omaha system.


Crow and Omaha both?
Aren't they sort of "opposites"?
I know they're both "diagonal" kinship systems.
But, I thought:
In one, one is related to everyone in any matriline not their own in the same way;
in the other one is related to everyone in any patriline not their own in the same way.

(So, basically, you're related to matrilines or patrilines rather than to individual people, except the system is more detailed in your own matriline or patriline as the case may be.)

There are cultures in which both matrilineal unilineal-descent-groups and patrilineal unilineal-descent-groups operate concurrently and independently. But I don't know of any that have both the Crow and the Omaha (if I'm not confused about those terms) concurrently.

Would it be possible? At the moment I can't think why not.

The Hawaiian system is ambilineal, as in there is just one MASSIVE family where uncles are the same as fathers, aunts are the same as mothers, and siblings/cousins etc...

As for the Vendri, I use the following system:
Image

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Re: Kinterms In Your Conlangs (And Natlangs)

Post by TomHChappell »

Yes, I knew about the Hawaiian system. You're related to generations, rather than to matrilines or to patrilines or to individual people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kinship_Systems.svg might be even a nicer illustration.

I was talking about "double descent" as in this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinship#Descent_groups wrote:Some societies reckon descent patrilineally for some purposes, and matrilineally for others. This arrangement is sometimes called double descent. For instance, certain property and titles may be inherited through the male line, and others through the female line.


Would it be possible for a society to have an Omaha system for some purposes (all Omaha systems are patrilineal, but not all patrilineal systems are Omaha systems), and also a Crow system for other purposes (all Crow systems are matrilineal, but not all matrilineal systems are Crow systems)?

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinship#Lineages.2C_clans.2C_phratries.2C_moieties.2C_and_matrimonial_sides.

__________________________________________________________________________________________


Thanks for the Vendri! :D

__________________________________________________________________________________________

[EDIT]: BTW Adpihi's kinship system is more Iroquois than Sudanese. [/EDIT]
Last edited by TomHChappell on Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kinterms In Your Conlangs (And Natlangs)

Post by Astraios »

FWICT, Lakota has a system most similar to the Iroquois one, but they're not quite the same. I'll post about it when I have time later.

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Re: Kinterms In Your Conlangs (And Natlangs)

Post by sirred »

It wouldn't be unheard of. Akan goes from Iroquois to Crow in certain circumstances. I don't know about a Crow-Omaha switch though. They seem too dissimilar, but that's just me.
In every U.S. presidential election between 1976 and 2004, the Republican nominee for president or for vice president was either a Dole or a Bush.

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