Komi Lessons / Komi Kyv Urokjas - Lesson 5

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Komi Lessons / Komi Kyv Urokjas - Lesson 5

Post by Mecislau »

Background:

Komi is a member of the Uralic language family that spans from eastern Europe to western Siberia. More specific, it belongs to the Permic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric languages. It is thus related to languages such as Finnish, Estonian, and Hungarian. Its closest relative is Udmurt, another Permic language.

It is one of the official languages of the Komi Republic in northern Russia, near the northeastern edge of Europe. It currently has around 400,000 speakers. It has three main dialects (though they are frequently considered several languages nowadays): Zyrian, Permyak, and Yazva. The literary standard which I'm familiar with is Komi-Zyrian, specifically the dialect of the city of Syktyvkar.

Historically, the Komi people were one of the first nations to come under Russian rule (soon after the Karelians), where between the 12th and 14th centuries they became a tributary state of the Republic of Novgorod, and later Moscow.

Komi is also unique for its status as one of the oldest written Uralic languages; it rates third oldest attested, after Hungarian and Karelian (written in the Cyrillic script). However, it actually had developed its own native writing system, known as Abur (sample: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... iption.jpg ). The modern language uses the Cyrillic script.


Lesson 1: Phonology and Spelling
Медводдза Урок: Фонетика да Гижанног
Medvoddźa Urok: Fońet'ika da Gižannog

Komi has a fairly straightforward phonology that's easy to learn. Its stress system is very regular and does not have much noticeable allophony.

Komi has seven vowels. Given below is the phonetic value, followed by the Cyrillic representation(s), and then the romanization I will be using in italics.

/a/ А, Я A
/e/ Э, Е E
/i/ І, И I
/o/ О, Ё O
/u/ У, Ю U
/@/ Ӧ Ö
/1/ Ы Y

The most distinctive feature of the consonant system is the series of palatalized consonants amongst the dentals and post-alveolar fricatives/affricates.

/p/ П P
/b/ Б B
/t/ Т T
/d/ Д D
/k/ К K
/g/ Г G
/m/ М M
/n/ Н N
/v/ В V
/s/ С S
/z/ З Z
/S/ Ш Š
/Z/ Ж Ž
/s\/ СЬ Ś
/z\/ ЗЬ Ź
/tS/ ТШ
/ts\/ Ч
/dZ/ ДЖ
/dz\/ ДЗ
/l/ Л L
/r/ Р R
/j/ Й J
/t_j/ ТЬ T'
/d_j/ ДЬ D'
/n_j/ НЬ Ń
/l_j/ ЛЬ L'

(Also /f/ Ф F and /x/ Х h, which are only found in loanwords)

As in Russian, each of the vowels have both iotated and uniotated forms. The iotated forms, when preceded by a consonant that has a palatalized equivalent (ie, /t d s z n/ > /t_j d_j s\ z\ n_j/), cause that consonant to palatalize. In the case of /a/, /o/, and /u/, this is straightforward: са sa /sa/, ся śa /s\a/; со so /so/, сё śo /s\o/; су su /su/, сю śu /s\u/.

With /e/ and /i/, this is a little different. After palatalized consonants, Е and И must be used: се śe /s\e/, си śi /s\i/. After non-palatalized consonants that can be palatalized, Э and І must be used: сэ se /se/, сі si /si/. After consonants that can't be palatalized, Е and И must nevertheless be used: ке ke /ke/, ки ki /ki/.

With /@/ and /1/, there is no iotated form, so the letter Ь must be stuck in between any palatalized consonant and the vowel: сӧ /s@/, сьӧ śö /s\@/; сы sy /s1/, сьы śy /s\1/.

At the end of a word or before a consonant, the letter Ь must be used to indicate the previous consonant is palatalized: порсь porś "pig" /pors\/.

/j/ before another consonant is represented with Й: квайт kvajt "six" /kvajt/. The sequences /ja je ji jo ju j@ j1/ are always represented with я е йи ё ю йӧ йы at the beginning of a word or intervocalically.

When /j/ follows any unpalatalized consonant (whether or not it has a palatalized counterpart), you must use the hard sign Ъ followed by the iotated vowel: съя sja /sja/, къя kja /kja/. When /j/ follows a palatalized consonant, the soft sign Ь is used followed by the iotated vowel: сья śja /s\ja/.

(All of the above oddities are the result of Russian spelling rules being applied, to some extent, on Komi, as well as some limitations of Cyrillic in not having distinct iotated variants of several vowels)

Most Russian words that entered the Komi language prior to the 20th century have been fully nativized and have a regular spelling, for example, явлӧг javlög "apple" (Russian jabloko), улича ulitśa "street" (Russian ulitsa). However, words that entered in the 20th century generally keep the Russian spelling, but nativize the pronunciation: любовь "love" (Russian /l_ju."bov_j/, Komi /"l_ju.bov/).

Komi consonants may exist in geminate form. Written vowels are always pronounced distinctly: шондіаӧсь "sunny (plural predicative form)" šondiaöś /"Son.di.a.@s\/, кык судтаа "two-storey (adj)" /"k1k "sud.ta.a/.

Stress always falls on the first syllable of a word.


Exercises:
Уджъяс:
Udžjas:

(Only relevant if you want to learn to use the Komi Cyrillic script; if you're working with the romanization, well, you'll have to wait for next lesson and some actual grammar to come along)

Transcribe the following Komi words, either into the romanization or phonemes.
  • кык "two"
  • тайӧ "this"
  • сэні "there"
  • нянь "bread"
  • ним "name"
  • нывъяс "girls"
  • руаӧсь "foggy (pl. predicative)"
  • кодйыны "to dig"
  • медводдза "first"
  • нёльӧд "fourth"
  • каньяс "cats"
  • чолӧм "hello!"
  • аддзысьлытӧдз "goodbye!"
Last edited by Mecislau on Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:39 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by brandrinn »

кык "two" /k1k/
тайӧ "this" /taj@/
сэні "there" /seni/
нянь "bread" /n_jan_j/ (naan?!?!)
ним "name" /n_jim/
нывъяс "girls" /n1vjas/
руаӧсь "foggy (pl. predicative)" /rua@s_j/
кодйыны "to dig" /kodj1n1/
медводдза "first" /medvoddz_ja/
нёльӧд "fourth" /n_jol_j@d/
каньяс "cats" /kan_jjas/
чолӧм "hello!" /ts_jol@m/ (shalom?!?!)
аддзысьлытӧдз "goodbye!" /addz_j1s_jl1t@dz_j/

Ja molodjets?
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Post by Silk »

нянь "bread" /n_jan_j/ (naan?!?!)
I too was wondering about this.

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Post by jmcd »

Do we have a candidate for spelling reform or not?
I get rectangles for anything/@/.
The phonology is unfortunately similar to Slavic. I'm not too fond of sibilants or affricates as it is but 10 of them out of 25 consonants? But that's only aesthetics.
Last edited by jmcd on Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by roninbodhisattva »

This is cool, I love Uralic languages. I will definitely be watching this thread.

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Post by brandrinn »

To the Peanut gallery: this is a lesson thread, not a "OMGZ, doods, look at this Uralic phonology!!!!1112" No comments on the nature of the language are necessary.
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Post by Niedokonany »

brandrinn wrote: чолӧм "hello!" /ts_jol@m/ (shalom?!?!)
No, it's from Polish "czołem!".
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Post by Mecislau »

brandrinn wrote:кык "two" /k1k/
тайӧ "this" /taj@/
сэні "there" /seni/
нянь "bread" /n_jan_j/ (naan?!?!)
ним "name" /n_jim/
нывъяс "girls" /n1vjas/
руаӧсь "foggy (pl. predicative)" /rua@s_j/
кодйыны "to dig" /kodj1n1/
медводдза "first" /medvoddz_ja/
нёльӧд "fourth" /n_jol_j@d/
каньяс "cats" /kan_jjas/
чолӧм "hello!" /ts_jol@m/ (shalom?!?!)
аддзысьлытӧдз "goodbye!" /addz_j1s_jl1t@dz_j/

Ja molodjets?
Yes, very good. I notice, though, that you wrote /s_j z_j/. While there's nothing wrong with that (I've even seen that before), /s\ z\/ really are more accurate for Komi.

And yes, нянь ńań "bread" is in fact cognate to "naan". The Komi people did once inhabit land further south, and did have quite a bit of contact with both Indo-Iranian and Turkic languages, where it borrowed quite a few words. Komi lent words to these languages as well.

Чолӧм tśolöm "hello", though, is not related to "Shalom" as far as I know! I don't see any transparent derivation, however.

jmcd wrote:I get rectangles for anything/@/.
Then you just don't have fonts with the character. It's the Cyrillic letter О with an umlaut above it. That is, it looks exactly like the Latin script Ö/ö.

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Post by Mecislau »

First of all, I just realized I forgot to mark /l_j/ as a phoneme in the first lesson, written ль. I'll edit it in.


Lesson Two: The Nominal Sentence, Plural, and Personal Pronouns (Nominative Case)
Мӧд Урок: Нимтана сёрникузя, уна лыд да морта нимвежтасъяс (нимтан падеж)
Möd Urok: Ńimtana śorńikuźa, una lyd da morta ńimvežtasjas (ńimtan pad'ež)


Komi has no form of "to be" in the present tense. Simple sentences of equation, then, are formed by juxtaposing two nouns or pronouns in the nominative case. Note also the two demonstrative pronouns тайӧ tajö "this/these" and сійӧ sijö "that". The former does not agree in number with its antecedent, but the latter has the plural form найӧ najö "those".

Тайӧ керка. Tajö kerka. "This is a house." (lit. "This house")
Сійӧ кар. Sijö kar. "That is a city." (lit. "That city")

When negated, however, the present tense copula in all forms is абу abu:

Тайӧ абу кар. Tajö abu kar. "This is not a city"


Komi has two numbers, singular and plural. The plural is formed quite regularly by adding -яс -jas to the singular form. It is believed this suffix is related to the word йӧз jöz "people".

керка kerka "house" > керкаяс kerkajas "houses"
школа škola "school" > школаяс školajas "schools"
кань kań "cat" > каньяс kańjas "cats"
чой tśoj "sister" > чойяс tśojjas "sisters"

If the singular ends in an unpalatalized consonant (other than /j/, as in чой above), this is spelt -ъяс:

вок vok "brother" > вокъяс vokjas "brothers"
ним ńim "name" > нимъяс ńimjas "names"

Many plural words in English are translated as a compound word with two singular elements in Komi. Compounds like this are common in Komi, and appear with many different parts of speech.

бать-мам bat'-mam "parents" (lit. "father-mother")
чой-вок tśoj-vok "siblings" (lit. "sister-brother")

Some plurals are suppletive:

кага kaga "child" > челядь tśel'ad' "children" (Russian loan) (EDIT: There's actually a number of different words for "child", though I suppose кага is the simplest)
морт mort "person" > йӧз jöz "people"


Below are the Komi personal pronouns in the nominative case. There is no gender distinction.

ме me "I"
тэ te "you (sg)"
сійӧ sijö "he/she/it" (identical to the demonstrative "that")
ми mi "we"
ті ti "you (pl)"
найӧ najö "they" (identical to the demonstrative "those")

The pronouns 1pl and 2pl pronouns also have the emphatic forms мийӧ mijö and тійӧ tijö.


Finally, there are two importation conjunctions that you will need to know for now, both borrowed from Russian: да da "and" and а a "whereas, but rather":

Ваньӧ да Наталь студентъяс. Vańö da Natal' stud'entjas. "Ivan and Natalya are students"
Сійӧ абу школа, а керка. Sijö abu škola, a kerka. "That is not a school, but a house."



Exercises:
Уджъяс:
Udžjas:


Translate the following into Komi. The vocabulary you need is below.
  • I am a student.
  • I am not a pupil.
  • You (sg) are not a teacher.
  • He is a friend.
  • We are parents.
  • You (pl) are children.
  • Those are not cats, but dogs.
  • These are siblings.
  • Nikolai and Peter are brothers.
  • These are cats and dogs.
  • They are girls and boys.

Vocabulary:
Кыввор:
Kyvvor:

  • велӧдчысь velödtśyś "pupil"
  • велӧдысь velödyś "teacher"
  • зон zon "friend"
  • зонка zonka "[little] boy"
  • кань kań "cat"
  • нывка nyvka "[little] girl"
  • пон pon "dog"
  • студент stud'ent "student"
And note the following names: Миколь Mikol' "Nikolai" and Петыр Petyr "Peter".
Last edited by Mecislau on Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by brandrinn »

I am a student. - me stud'ent.
I am not a pupil. - me abu velödtśyś.
You (sg) are not a teacher. - te abu velödyś.
He is a friend. - sijö zon.
We are parents. - mi bat'-mam.
You (pl) are children. - ti tśel'ad'.
Those are not cats, but dogs. - najö abu kan'jas, a ponjas.
These are siblings. - tajö tśoj-vok.
Nikolai and Peter are brothers. - Mikol' da Petyr vokjas.
These are cats and dogs. - tajö kan'jas da ponjas.
They are girls and boys. - najö nyvkajas da zonkajas.

Some questions:
Is /l/ ever velarized?
Are emphatic pronouns used the same way as in English?
How does da come from Russian? Russian "and" is i.
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Post by Xonen »

brandrinn wrote:How does da come from Russian? Russian "and" is i.
Somehow I suspect he just might now that. :P However, da is also Russian for "and", albeit not standard Russian. It is also the word for "and" in probably somewhere around a dozen Finno-Ugric languages (which originally didn't have conjunctions at all).

Also:
  • I am a student. Ме студент.
  • I am not a pupil. Ме абу велӧдчысь.
  • You (sg) are not a teacher. Тэ абу велӧдысь.
  • He is a friend. Сійӧ зон.
  • We are parents. Ми бать-мам.
  • You (pl) are children. Ті челядь.
  • Those are not cats, but dogs. Найӧ абу каньяс, а понъяс.
  • These are siblings. Сійӧ чой-вок.
  • Nikolai and Peter are brothers. Миколь да Петыр вокъяс.
  • These are cats and dogs. Сійӧ каньяс да понъяс.
  • They are girls and boys. Найӧ нывкаяс да зонкаяс.
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Post by Mecislau »

Good, your answers are both correct.
brandrinn wrote:Is /l/ ever velarized?
Argh, I remember reading something about this not too long ago, but I don't really remember. I wouldn't be surprised, though, given that velarization frequently seems to go hand-in-hand with palatalization.

At one point, though, it most likely was - there's an /l ~ v/ alternation in Komi that you'll see relatively soon.
brandrinn wrote:Are emphatic pronouns used the same way as in English?
They're used if the pronoun is stressed or accented. Think "you did this" versus "you [and not us] did this".
brandrinn wrote:How does da come from Russian? Russian "and" is i.
That's true. But da also means "and" in Russian. Da, like Xonen said, is nonstandard, but you see it in lots of older texts and occasionally in colloquial speech. Historically I believe it's quite common in the north, hence why it has been borrowed in a number of Uralic languages.

Remember, the Russians and Komi have been in contact since the 11th century or so, so a lot of the oldest loaned vocabulary will reflect old Northern Russian dialects and in many cases may have undergone semantic drift (just look at челядь for "children" - in Russian this is archaic and means "servants".

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Post by Aurora Rossa »

Whoa, I had no idea that Komi was so loan-heavy. I suppose some loans are to be expected given such close proximity to a powerful nation, but borrowing whole conjunctions seems a bit much IMO. So, if Komi roots are mostly one syllable long, where do words like kerka for "house" come from?
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Post by brandrinn »

Eddy wrote:Whoa, I had no idea that Komi was so loan-heavy. I suppose some loans are to be expected given such close proximity to a powerful nation, but borrowing whole conjunctions seems a bit much IMO. So, if Komi roots are mostly one syllable long, where do words like kerka for "house" come from?
...








...










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Post by Mecislau »

Eddy wrote:Whoa, I had no idea that Komi was so loan-heavy. I suppose some loans are to be expected given such close proximity to a powerful nation, but borrowing whole conjunctions seems a bit much IMO. So, if Komi roots are mostly one syllable long, where do words like kerka for "house" come from?
Actually, Komi is surprisingly light on loans considering. Just look at all the grammatical terminology. In that Ńimtana śorńikuźa, una lyd da morta ńimvežtasjas (ńimtan pad'ež) subheading I gave for the second lesson ("The nominal sentence, plural, and personal pronouns (nominative case)"), there's only one loanword, the Russian word padež for "case".

And borrowing conjunctions isn't that uncommon. Turkish, for example, borrowed ve "and" from Arabic. And it's even less unlikely when you consider that, as Xonen said, Komi didn't originally have conjunctions.

As for kerka, well, that's because it's not a root, but a derived stem. The actual root here is the word кер ker, meaning "log" or "beam [of wood]".

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Post by marconatrix »

Eddy wrote:Whoa, I had no idea that Komi was so loan-heavy. I suppose some loans are to be expected given such close proximity to a powerful nation, but borrowing whole conjunctions seems a bit much IMO. So, if Komi roots are mostly one syllable long, where do words like kerka for "house" come from?
According to this site :

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2282/finno.html

karta = 'house' is a loan from Karelian or Veps;

but then it also says that karta = 'cow-shed' is a loan from Bulgar (Turkic). So can either be believed? It does look like an interesting survey of the various sources of loans though, even if all the individual examples may not be correct.

The English is a bit quaint too :-)

Note also correspondences like Komi kyv ~ Udmurt kyl 'tongue' (cf. Finnish kieli < keel- ). So my guess would be that in some positions /l/ > /w/ > /v/.
Kyn nag ov den skentel pur ...

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Post by Mecislau »

marconatrix wrote:karta = 'house' is a loan from Karelian or Veps;

but then it also says that karta = 'cow-shed' is a loan from Bulgar (Turkic). So can either be believed? It does look like an interesting survey of the various sources of loans though, even if all the individual examples may not be correct.
The sense of "cow-shed" is far more common. From what I can gather, карта meaning "house" is dialectical and non-standard.
marconatrix wrote:Note also correspondences like Komi kyv ~ Udmurt kyl 'tongue' (cf. Finnish kieli <keel> /w/ > /v/.
That is correct. In standard Komi, /l/ became /v/ word-finally or immediately before another consonant. That's why Komi today has such consonant mutations such as ныв nyv "girl" > нылыс nylys "the girl".

(Кыв kyv "language, tongue" is irregular, though. The /v/ here mutates to /vj/, which isn't historical: кывйыс kyvjys "the language")

Other dialects of Komi have either preserved this /l/ (thus having кыл kyl and ныл nyl), converted all /l/ to /v/ (thus having нывыс nyvys), or have instead developed long vowels to compensate for lost /l/ (кыы , ныы ). It's clear why this is often used as an isogloss to divide up Komi dialects.





Lesson Three: The Genitive Case, Locative Case, Demonstrative Adjectives, and Other Adjectives:
Коймӧд Урок: Асалан падеж, ина падеж, индана кывбердъяс да мукӧд кывбердъяс:
Kojmöd Urok: Asalan pad'ež, ina pad'ež, indana kyvberdjas da muköd kyvberdjas:


The demonstrative adjectives are identical to the demonstrative pronouns, and are simply placed before the noun they modify. However, this generally requires the noun to take the definite article suffix -ыс -ys. If attached to a singular noun, this can sometimes cause slight mutations due to lost consonant reemerging when "protected" by this suffix. However, for all the nouns we will be dealing with in this lesson, it is regular.

In the plural, the definite article appears after the plural marker.

Тайӧ керкаыс Tajö kerkays "This house"
Тайӧ керкаясыс Tajö kerkajasys "These houses"

The definite article is identical to (well, is) the 3rd person possessive affix, so керкаыс kerkays means both "the house" and "his/her house".


Thus far we've only been dealing with the nominative case (нимтан падеж ńimtan pad'ež). However, Komi has a total of around sixteen cases, though there is debate about the exact number. In this lesson I'll be introducing the genitive (асалан падеж asalan pad'ež) and locative (ина падеж ina pad'ež).

The genitive indicates possession, and is marked by adding the suffix -лӧн -lön to the nominative form of the noun (singular or plural). It is highly regular:

Петырлӧн Petyrlön "Peter's"
нывкалӧн nyvkalön "[a] girl's"
нывкаяслӧн nyvkajaslön "[some] girls'"

In possessive expressions, the noun in the genitive case always precedes the possessed noun:

Мартынлӧн чой Martynlön tśoj "Martin's sister"

Complex nouns like бать-мам bat'-mam or full names like Иван Иванович Ivan Ivanovitś take only a single case ending (but in coordinated noun phrases, like "X and X", both nouns need the ending!):

бать-мамлӧн bat'-mamlön "parents'"
Иван Ивановичлӧн Ivan Ivanovitślön "Ivan Ivanovich's"

The locative replaces the preposition "in", and is marked by the ending -ын -yn. It is also known as the the inessive case. In the plural, it is added after the ending -яс -jas, and in the singular, it can cause the same kinds of mutations that the definite article -ыс -ys will.

керкаын kerkayn "in a house"
керкаясын kerkajasyn "in houses"

(While the definite article can also be used with other cases, for now we're not going to deal with that, simply because it interacts with case endings)


The words эм em and абу abu are used to mean "there is" and "there isn't" respectively (existence and non-existence). If the thing existing or not existing is plural, they become эмӧсь emöś and абуӧсь abuöś. Also useful to know are the adverbs тані tani "here" and сэні seni "there". Note the similarity to the demonstratives, with t- marking the proximal and s- the distal.

Эм сэні театр. Em seni teatr. "There is a theatre there."
Абуӧсь тані керкаяс. Abuöś tani kerkajas. "There aren't any houses here."


The concept of "having" is expressed using эм/абу em/abu with a noun in the genitive case. "Ivan has books" is thus literally rendered "Of Ivan there are books":

Ваньӧлӧн эмӧсь книгаяс. Vańölön emöś kńigajas. "Ivan has books"
Ваньӧлӧн абуӧсь книгаяс. Vańölön abuöś kńigajas. "Ivan does not have books"


In Komi adjectives do not decline for case or number, and are always placed before the noun they modify:

выль керка vyl' kerka "a new house"
выль керкаяс vyl' kerkajas "new houses"
выль керкаяслӧн vyl' kerkajaslön "of new houses"

However, in predicate position, they take the suffix -ӧсь -öś if the noun is plural:

Тайӧ керкаыс выль. Tajö kerkays vyl'. "This house is new."
Тайӧ керкаясыс выльӧсь. Tajö kerkajasys vyl'öś. "These houses are new."


Exercises:
Уджъяс:
Udžjas:


Translate the following using the given vocabulary:
  • This house is red.
  • These houses are green.
  • There are wide streets in Syktyvkar.
  • The water in rivers is cold.
  • There is ice in the river. [EDIT: Scratch this one. Do "in a river" instead, because I haven't discussed how to combine definiteness with case endings]
  • Nikolai and Anna have a son and a daughter.
  • Moscow is the capital of Russia.
  • There is a red table in Yuri's house.
  • The school doesn't have any windows.
  • Here is a park, and there is the city. (use а a for the conjunction)
  • Ivan's brother is tall.
  • Peter's sisters are short.
(Note that Komi has fairly free word order so far as the top-level parts of a sentence are concerned, so you can freely say either эм керка em kerka or керка эм kerka em for "there is a house", but within a noun phrase the order ADJ+NOUN or GEN+NOUN is strict)

Vocabulary:
Кыввор:
Kyvvor:
  • ва va "water"
  • гӧрд görd "red"
  • джуджыд džudžyd "tall"
  • йи ji "ice"
  • кӧдзыд ködźyd "cold"
  • ляпкыд l'apkyd "short"
  • Мӧскуа Möskua "Moscow"
  • ныв nyv "daughter" (also "[teenage] girl", as opposed to нывка nyvka "[little] girl")
  • ӧшинь öšiń "window"
  • парк park "park"
  • паськыд paśkyd "wide"
  • пи pi "son" (note the irregular plural пиян pijan - this is the only irregular plural ending of any native Komi nouns)
  • пызан pyzan "table"
  • Рочму Rotśmu "Russia" (from роч rotś "Russian" + му mu "land")
  • турунвиж turunviž "green" (literally "grass-yellow", турун turun = grass, виж viž = yellow)
  • улича ulitśa "street"
  • ю ju "river"
  • юркар jurkar "capital" (lit. "head-city")
Сыктывкар Syktyvkar is the capital of the Komi republic, a city of about 230,000 people. The names comes from Сыктыв Syktyv, the Komi name for the Sysola River along which it's located, and кар kar "city".

And note the names Анӧ Anö "Anna" and Юри Juri "Yuri".
Last edited by Mecislau on Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Niedokonany
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Post by Niedokonany »

Тайӧ керкаыс гӧрд.
Тайӧ керкаясыс турунвижӧсь.
Сыктывкарын эмӧсь паськыд уличаяс.
Ваыс юясын кӧдзыд.
Эм йи юын.*
Микольлӧн да Анӧлӧн эмӧсь пи да ныв.
Мӧскуа Рочмулӧн юркар.
Гӧрд пызан эм Юрилӧн керкаын.
Эм тані парк, а сэні эм карыс.
Иванлӧн вок джуджыд.
Петырлӧн чойяс ляпкыдӧсь.

*Was I supposed to apply the definite marker here? If so, what's the proper order of the suffixes?

Also, a few additional questions:

Is there final devoicing in Komi? What about voicing assimilation within words - is велӧдчысь pronounced [vel@tt_s\1s_j] or [vel@dt_s\1s_j]? Does ляпкыд mean only "not tall", or can it also be used for "not long" like in English?
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Post by Mecislau »

Piotr wrote:Тайӧ керкаыс гӧрд.
Тайӧ керкаясыс турунвижӧсь.
Сыктывкарын эмӧсь паськыд уличаяс.
Ваыс юясын кӧдзыд.
Эм йи юын.*
Микольлӧн да Анӧлӧн эмӧсь пи да ныв.
Мӧскуа Рочмулӧн юркар.
Гӧрд пызан эм Юрилӧн керкаын.
Эм тані парк, а сэні эм карыс.
Иванлӧн вок джуджыд.
Петырлӧн чойяс ляпкыдӧсь.
Good.
Piotr wrote:*Was I supposed to apply the definite marker here? If so, what's the proper order of the suffixes?
Argh, that was my mistake. I wanted to avoid combining definiteness and case endings for now. What you said is correct for "There is ice in a river", which is also what I edited my original question to say just now.

Komi possessive suffixes (like I said earlier, -ыс technically is one) and case markers fuse together. The 3sg locative ending is -ас -as, so to have translated that according to what I had originally said you would have to say Эм йи юас Em ji juas. But of course, I wouldn't expect anyone to know that...
Piotr wrote:Is there final devoicing in Komi? What about voicing assimilation within words - is велӧдчысь pronounced [vel@tt_s\1s_j] or [vel@dt_s\1s_j]? Does ляпкыд mean only "not tall", or can it also be used for "not long" like in English?
No, Komi does not have final devoicing. But yes, you do get voicing assimilation: [vel@tts\1s\] is the correct pronunciation.

Джуджыд džudžyd and ляпкыд l'apkyd refer only to vertical dimensions, but in either direction. That is, джуджыд means both "tall" and "deep", while ляпкыд means both "short" and "shallow".

Komi uses кузь kuź for "long" and дженьыд džeńyd for "short (as opposed to long)". You've probably noticed how a lot of these adjectives seem to end in -yd - this is an adjective suffix that is no longer productive, but seems to generally denote physical qualities.

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Post by jmcd »

brandrinn wrote:To the Peanut gallery: this is a lesson thread, not a "OMGZ, doods, look at this Uralic phonology!!!!1112" No comments on the nature of the language are necessary.
Sorry. It won't happen again.

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Post by brandrinn »

  • This house is red. - Tajö kerkays görd.
  • These houses are green. - Tajö kerkajasys turunvižöś.
  • There are wide streets in Syktyvkar. - Em Syktyvkaryn paśkyd ulitśajas.
  • The water in rivers is cold. - Jujaslön va ködźyd.
  • There is ice in a river. - Em juyn ji. (or would Em julön ji work better?)
  • Nikolai and Anna have a son and a daughter. - Em Mikol'lön da Анӧlön pi da nyv
  • Moscow is the capital of Russia. - Möskua Rotśmulön jurkar.
  • There is a red table in Yuri's house. - Em Jurilön kerkalön görd pyzan.
  • The school doesn't have any windows. - Abuöś :sh kolalön öšiń.
  • Here is a park, and there is the city. - Em tani park, a seni karys.
  • Ivan's brother is tall. - Vańölön vok džudžyd.
  • Peter's sisters are short. - Petyrlön tśojys l'apkydöś .
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Post by Mecislau »

brandrinn wrote:The water in rivers is cold. - Jujaslön va ködźyd.
I had intended you to use the locative here, not the genitive. This isn't wrong per se, but it sounds a bit awkward.

(I'll give you all the most natural way to phrase this in the next lesson - by turning the word "river" into an adjective)
brandrinn wrote:There is ice in a river. - Em juyn ji. (or would Em julön ji work better?)
The former is better.
brandrinn wrote:Nikolai and Anna have a son and a daughter. - Em Mikol'lön da Анӧlön pi da nyv
It should be emöś, because "pi da nyv", being a compound noun phrase, is plural.
brandrinn wrote:There is a red table in Yuri's house. - Em Jurilön kerkalön görd pyzan.
I'm not sure why you used a possessive construction here. Since the table is in his house, use the locative case, whose expressed purpose is to express "in": Jurilön kerkayn em görd pyzan.
brandrinn wrote:The school doesn't have any windows. - Abuöś :sh kolalön öšiń.
You forgot to pluralize "window" - öšińjas.
brandrinn wrote:Peter's sisters are short. - Petyrlön tśojys l'apkydöś .
You used the wrong ending - tśojys is "his sister"; tśojjas is "sisters".

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Post by marconatrix »

školalön öšińjas abuöś a öšińys öt'i em ??? :?
Kyn nag ov den skentel pur ...

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Post by Mecislau »

marconatrix wrote:školalön öšińjas abuöś a öšińys öt'i em ??? :?
Hey, I just needed an example sentence. It didn't have to make sense! :P

("one window" would be öt'i öšiń, by the way)

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Post by marconatrix »

Couldn't resist the experiment. Sorry :oops: :oops: :oops:

The use of "its/his/her house" to mean "the house" is something I've never ever seen before as far as I recall in any language.

Which (if any!) of these are grammatical and make sense :

Tajö kerkays "This is his?/the? house"
Tajö zonlön kerka "This is a friend's house"
Tajö zonlön kerkays "This is a friend's (own?) house"
Kyn nag ov den skentel pur ...

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