Komi Lessons / Komi Kyv Urokjas - Lesson 5

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brandrinn
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Post by brandrinn »

Wow, I suck!
Mecislau wrote:
brandrinn wrote:There is a red table in Yuri's house. - Em Jurilön kerkalön görd pyzan.
I'm not sure why you used a possessive construction here. Since the table is in his house, use the locative case, whose expressed purpose is to express "in": Jurilön kerkayn em görd pyzan.
I assumed "There is X in Y" would be synonymous with "Y has X," as in the previous examples, so I used the genitive. Thanks for correcting me. I guess I can only use possessive constructions for more vague "of" situations, rather than more concrete "in" situations.
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Re: Komi Lessons / Komi Kyv Urokjas

Post by Qwynegold »

I hope I'm not really late. The thread is already two pages but I didn't wan't to be spoiled...
Mecislau wrote:порсь porś "pig" /pors\/
Yay, this must be a cognate to Finnish porsas "piglet".
  • кык "two" - kyk
  • тайӧ "this" - tajö
  • сэні "there" - seni
  • нянь "bread" - ńań
  • ним "name" - nim (yay! Another cognate)
  • нывъяс "girls" - nyvjas
  • руаӧсь "foggy (pl. predicative)" - ruaöś
  • кодйыны "to dig" - kodjyny
  • медводдза "first" - medvoddźa
  • нёльӧд "fourth" - ńol'öd
  • каньяс "cats" - kanjas (this one's hard. Cyrillic sucks!)
  • чолӧм "hello!" - tśolöm
  • аддзысьлытӧдз "goodbye!" - addźyślytödź
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Post by Mecislau »

macronatrix wrote:The use of "its/his/her house" to mean "the house" is something I've never ever seen before as far as I recall in any language.
]

Actually, Komi has two levels of definiteness. The neutral form is -ыс -ys, which literally means "his/her/its". However, there is also a more proximal form -ыд -yd, which literally means "your"!

керкаыд kerkayd means "the house right here" (lit. "your (sg) house")
marconatrix wrote:Tajö kerkays "This is his?/the? house"
Yes, this means either "This is his house" or "This is his house", but more likely the latter. If you want to stress "his", you can stick in the genitive form of the pronoun сійӧ (which I'll teach you all later): Тайӧ сылӧн керкаыс. Tajö sylön kerkays (lit. "This of-him his-house").
marconatrix wrote:Tajö zonlön kerka "This is a friend's house"
Yep, that's correct.

Tajö zonlön kerkays "This is a friend's (own?) house"[/quote]

This one sounds a little off to me, but since I'm not a native speaker, I really can't say for certain.

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Re: Komi Lessons / Komi Kyv Urokjas

Post by Mecislau »

Qwynegold wrote:ним "name" - nim (yay! Another cognate)
Close, but it should be ńim, with /n_j/. "Nim" with /n/ would be spelt нім.
Qwynegold wrote:каньяс "cats" - kanjas (this one's hard. Cyrillic sucks!)
Again, it's /n_j/: kańjas. In Komi never ignore the soft sign Ь - the sound before it will always be pronounced palatalized.

(Unless it's a loan from Russian that kept its original spelling, in which case... sorry. But loanwords in any language can be a pain)

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Post by Qwynegold »

  • I am a student. - Me stud'ent.
  • I am not a pupil. - Me abu velödtśyś.
  • You (sg) are not a teacher. - Te abu velödyś.
  • He is a friend. - Sijö zon.
  • We are parents. - Mi bat'-mam.
  • You (pl) are children. - Ti tśel'ad'.
  • Those are not cats, but dogs. - Najö abu kańjas, a ponjas.
  • These are siblings. - Tijö tśoj-vok.
  • Nikolai and Peter are brothers. - Mikol' da Petyr vokjas.
  • These are cats and dogs. - Tijö kańjas da ponjas.
  • They are girls and boys. - Najö nyvkajas da zonkajas.
Last edited by Qwynegold on Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Qwynegold »

  • This house is red. - Tajö kerkays görd.
  • These houses are green. - Tajö kerkajasys turunviž.
  • There are wide streets in Syktyvkar. - Emöś paśkyd ulitśajas Syktyvkaryn.
  • The water in rivers is cold. - Vays jujasyn ködźyd.
  • There is ice in the river. [EDIT: Scratch this one. Do "in a river" instead, because I haven't discussed how to combine definiteness with case endings] - Juyn em ji.
  • Nikolai and Anna have a son and a daughter. - Nikolailön da Anölön (is the genitive case supposed to be on both names?) emöś pi da nyv.
  • Moscow is the capital of Russia. - Möskua Rotśmulön jurkar.
  • There is a red table in Yuri's house. - Jurilön kerkayn em görd pyzan.
  • The school doesn't have any windows. - Školayn abuöś öšiń.
  • Here is a park, and there is the city. (use а a for the conjunction) - Tani em park, a seni em karys.
  • Ivan's brother is tall. - Vańölön vok džudžyd.
  • Peter's sisters are short. - Petyrlön tśojjas l'apkyd.
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Re: Komi Lessons / Komi Kyv Urokjas

Post by Qwynegold »

Mecislau wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:ним "name" - nim (yay! Another cognate)
Close, but it should be ńim, with /n_j/. "Nim" with /n/ would be spelt нім.
Ah, I have so much trouble with this, because for some reason I've learnt that И is I, Е is E, and Э is JE (except that Е and Э switch values when at the beginning of a word).
Mecislau wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:каньяс "cats" - kanjas (this one's hard. Cyrillic sucks!)
Again, it's /n_j/: kańjas. In Komi never ignore the soft sign Ь - the sound before it will always be pronounced palatalized.

(Unless it's a loan from Russian that kept its original spelling, in which case... sorry. But loanwords in any language can be a pain)
I knew I there was something wrong!

So a soft sound means palatalized? Hmm, in my opinion that's kinda counter-intuitive, non-palatalized sounds sound softer to me.
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Qwynegold wrote:These are siblings. - Tijö tśoj-vok.
These are cats and dogs. - Tijö kańjas da ponjas.
That should be tajö "this, these", not tijö "you all".
Qwynegold wrote:These houses are green. - Tajö kerkajasys turunviž.
Peter's sisters are short. - Petyrlön tśojjas l'apkyd.
You forgot the -öś ending for the adjectives here. If a predicate adjective has a plural antecedent, it needs to take the suffix -öś.
Qwynegold wrote:Nikolai and Anna have a son and a daughter. - Nikolailön da Anölön (is the genitive case supposed to be on both names?) emöś pi da nyv.
Yes, I said that coordinated compound noun phrases like that require the case ending on both nouns (but uncoordinated ones like bat'-mam do not)
Qwynegold wrote:The school doesn't have any windows. - Školayn abuöś öšiń.
You need to pluralize "window".
Qwynegold wrote:Е is E, and Э is JE (except that Е and Э switch values when at the beginning of a word).
... what? Where did that come from?
Qwynegold wrote:So a soft sound means palatalized? Hmm, in my opinion that's kinda counter-intuitive, non-palatalized sounds sound softer to me.
That "soft"="palatalized" and "hard"="unpalatalized" is fairly standard terminology. And I think there's going to be plenty of people that disagree with your opinion there :wink:

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Mecislau wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:These are siblings. - Tijö tśoj-vok.
These are cats and dogs. - Tijö kańjas da ponjas.
That should be tajö "this, these", not tijö "you all".
Whoops! You all are cats and dogs...
Mecislau wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:These houses are green. - Tajö kerkajasys turunviž.
Peter's sisters are short. - Petyrlön tśojjas l'apkyd.
You forgot the -öś ending for the adjectives here. If a predicate adjective has a plural antecedent, it needs to take the suffix -öś.
Huh, I completely missed that part.
Mecislau wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:Nikolai and Anna have a son and a daughter. - Nikolailön da Anölön (is the genitive case supposed to be on both names?) emöś pi da nyv.
Yes, I said that coordinated compound noun phrases like that require the case ending on both nouns (but uncoordinated ones like bat'-mam do not)
OK
Mecislau wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:The school doesn't have any windows. - Školayn abuöś öšiń.
You need to pluralize "window".
Whoops!
Mecislau wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:Е is E, and Э is JE (except that Е and Э switch values when at the beginning of a word).
... what? Where did that come from?
I don't remember where, but somewhere it said that E is E, and Э is Je, except at the beginning of words it's the other way around.
Mecislau wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:So a soft sound means palatalized? Hmm, in my opinion that's kinda counter-intuitive, non-palatalized sounds sound softer to me.
That "soft"="palatalized" and "hard"="unpalatalized" is fairly standard terminology. And I think there's going to be plenty of people that disagree with your opinion there :wink:
Huh. To me palatalization sounds harsh or sharp somehow.
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Re: Komi Lessons / Komi Kyv Urokjas

Post by Xonen »

Qwynegold wrote:Cyrillic sucks!
NO U.
Mecislau wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:So a soft sound means palatalized? Hmm, in my opinion that's kinda counter-intuitive, non-palatalized sounds sound softer to me.
That "soft"="palatalized" and "hard"="unpalatalized" is fairly standard terminology
…to the point that it's even made its way to the official names of the letters ь and ъ (soft sign and hard sign, respectively, for the uninitiated) in the Russian alphabet. :wink:

And…

Тайӧ керкаыс гӧрд.
Тайӧ керкаясыс турунвижӧсь.
Эмӧсь паськыд уличаяс Сыктывкарын.
Ваыс юясын кӧдзыд.
Эм йи юын.
Микольлӧн да Анӧлӧн эмӧсь пи да ныв.
Мӧскуа Рочмулӧн юркар.
Эм гӧрд пызан Юрилӧн керкаын.
Школалӧн абуӧсь ӧшиньяс.
Тані парк, а сэні карыс.
Ваньӧлӧн вок джуджыд.
Петырлӧн чойяс ляпкыдӧсь.
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Post by hwhatting »

I assume порсь and морт are old loans from Iranian?

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Post by Mecislau »

hwhatting wrote:I assume порсь and морт are old loans from Iranian?
Yes. They seem to be pretty early loans, though, because they're present in a number of Finno-Ugric languages.
Школный этимологический словарь коми языка wrote:МОРТ «человек»
[...]
Соответствия имеются в некоторых финно-угорских языках: в удмуртском - мурт «человек; чужой, посторонний»; диал. «муж, жених», в мордовских - мирде, мирдя «мужчина, человек; муж».

Слово появилось в финно-пермский период и восходит к древней форме *mertä «человек, мужчина». Эта форма заимствована из индоиранский языков.

[...]

ПОРСЬ «свинья»
[...]
Слово имеет соответствия в ряде родственных языков: в удмуртском - парсь «свинья», в мордовских - пурхц, пурхцкя, пурцуз «поросёнок», в эстонском - põrsas (põrsa) «тж», в финнском - porsas (porsaan) «тж».

Слово является заимствованием из индоевропейских языков (ср. авестийское pərəsō-, латинское porcus).

При условии, что пермские слова не являются самостоятельными заимствованияни, они относятся к финно-пермскому периоду.

Предполагаемая древняя форма *porśas «свинья, поросёнок».

Соотносимые слова в мансийском - pōrəs, pūrs, в хантыйском - porəs и др. «свинья» заимствованы из коми языка.

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Lesson Four: Interrogative Pronouns, The Genitive Case of Pronouns, Numbers, and Basic Adjective Derivation
Нёльӧд Урок: Юасяна нимвежтасъяс, асалан нимвежтасъяс, лыдакывъяс да кывбердлӧн шӧр суффиксъяс
Ńol'öd Urok: Juaśana ńimvežtasjas, asalan ńimvežtasjas, lydakyvjas da kyvberdlön šör suffiksjas



Komi frequently uses the interrogative pronouns мый myj "what?" and коді kodi "who?". These both decline using regular case endings, but note that коді is one of the few words in Komi with a non-zero nominative ending. The stem is *kod- (so that, eg, the genitive singular is кодлӧн kodlön.

Also note that коді kodi declines for number, while мый myj does not:

Коді сійӧ? Kodi sijö? "Who is he?"
Кодъяс найӧ? Kodjas najö? "Who are they?"


If you're asking a question without an interrogative pronoun, all you do is add the particle -ӧ after whatever part of the sentence is being questioned:

Сылӧн эм-ӧ кань? Sylön em-ö kań? "Does he have a cat?" (Yes, he does)
Сылӧн эм кань-ӧ? Sylön em kań-ö? "Does he have a cat?" (No, he has a dog)
Сылӧн-ӧ эм кань? Sylön-ö em kań? "Does he have a cat?" (No, his sister does)

Colloquially, though, questions may be indicated simply by intonation (a rise on the first syllable of the word being questioned, followed by a slow drop)


The genitive case of Komi personal pronouns are as follows:
менам menam "of me"
тэнад tenad "of you (sg)"
сылӧн sylön "of him/her/it"
миян mijan "of us"
тіян tijan "of you (pl)"
налӧн nalön "of them"

When placed in front of a noun, they act as possessive pronouns: менам книга menam kńiga "my book". However, many core Komi nouns require a possessive suffix as well, so while менам книга Menam kńiga for "my book" works, for "my name" you would say менам нимӧй menam ńimöj, with the 1sg suffix -öj. You'll learn the rest of these suffixes later, but remember that you already know the 3sg ending -ыс -ys.


Komi nouns tend to be highly regular when you add a suffix that begins with a consonant, like -яс -jas or -лӧн -lön. However, when you add a suffix that begins with a vowel (like the definite article/3sg possessive -ыс -ys or the locative -ын -yn), mutations can occur in the final consonant of the root.

Many nouns ending in /v/ change it to /l/: ныв nyv "girl" > нылыс nylys "the girl"

Many nouns ending in a labial consonant (unfortunately including /v/ as well) add an additional /j/ to the root: кыв kyv "tongue, language" > кывйыс kyvjys "the language"

Final /n/ frequently becomes /nm/: зон zon "friend, pal" > зонмыс zonmys "the friend".

Other changes I will mention as they come up. From now on if the 'true' stem of the noun is different from the nominative singular I will mark that on vocabulary lists like this:
  • кыв kyv (*kyl-) "tongue, language"

Here are the Komi cardinal numbers from one to ten. Komi actually has a fairly complex set of numbers including various types of collectives, but these are the basic forms:
  • 1 - ӧти öt'i
  • 2 - кык kyk
  • 3 - куим kuim
  • 4 - нёль ńol'
  • 5 - вит vit
  • 6 - квайт kvajt
  • 7 - сизим śiźim
  • 8 - кӧкъямыс kökjamys
  • 9 - ӧкмыс ökmys
  • 10 - дас das
Anyone familiar with another Finno-Ugric language like Finnish will probably notice the similarities.

Numerals are placed before the singular form of the noun they modify (so кык син kyk śin "two eyes", never *кык синъяс *kyk śinjas). Like other adjectives, they themselves do not show any agreement.


Komi has an extremely rich system of derivation. For now, here are four of the most common means of converting nouns into adjectives.

1) No ending. Simply placing a noun in the "adjective slot" before another noun is enough to perform many simple adjectivizations. This is actually very similar to English:

кӧрт kört "iron"
туй tuj "road"
станция stantsija "station"

кӧрт туй kört tuj "railroad" (lit. "iron road")

кӧрт туй станция kört tuj stantsija "railroad station" (lit. "iron road station": [[[iron] road] station])

2) The suffix -са -sa is added to place names to convert them into adjectives:

карса университет karsa uńiverśit'et "city university"
вӧрса пемӧсъяс vörsa pemösjas "forest animals, wild animals" (вӧр vör "forest", пемӧс pemös "animal")
юса йи jusa ji "river ice"
Мӧскуаса олысь Möskuasa olyś "Moscow resident" (олысь olyś "resident, inhabitant")

3) The suffix -а -a (which does cause mutations!) basically means "having X":

шонді šondi "sun" > шондіа šondia "sunny"
зэр zer "rain" > зэра zera "rainy"

Note that this suffix is very important because it allows you to turn entire noun phrases into adjectives by simply adjectivalizing the head:

Горький нима парк Gorky ńima park "Gorky Park" (more literally "Gorky-named Park")
кык судтаа керка kyk sudtaa kerka "two storey house" (more literally "Two-storeyed house")

4) The suffix -тӧм -töm, which basically means "without X" and so is the opposite of #3 above.

шондітӧм šonditöm "sunless"

Exercises:
Уджъяс:
Udžjas:


Translate the following:
  • This man is interesting.
  • Who has my pencil?
  • The weather in Komi is bad.
  • Today is a very windy day.
  • The night is black and starless.
  • Who (pl) is in England?
  • Vorkuta is a snowy city.
  • Do you have friends in Finland?
  • I have a color television. (lit. "many-colored television")
  • Does he have a pet? (lit. "home animal" - think about what adjective ending you need)
  • We have two sons and three daughters.
  • Canada is a country in North America.
  • Gorky Park is very beautiful.

    These three are trickier:
  • Their houses are two-storeyed.
  • Martin is in the Syktyvkar Railroad Station.
  • What is his name? (you know enough to do this, even though it requires a suffix)
Vocabulary:
Кыввор:
Kyvvor:
  • Америка Amerika "America"
  • Англия Angl'ija "England"
  • вой voj "night"
  • войвыв vojvyv (*vojvyl-) "north, northern"
  • Вӧркута Vörkuta "Vorkuta" (a city in northern Komi)
  • горт gort "home"
  • ёрт jort "friend, comrade" (more formal than зон zon)
  • зэв zev "very" (precedes the adjective)
  • интереснӧй interesnöj "interesting"
  • Канада Kanada "Canada"
  • канму kanmu "country, state"
  • карандаш karandaš "pencil"
  • кодзув kodźuv "star"
  • Коми му Komi mu "Komi" (the region, lit. "Komi land")
  • лёк l'ok "bad, evil"
  • лун lun "day"
  • лым lym (*lymj-) "snow"
  • мича mitśa "beautiful"
  • морт mort "man, person"
  • поводдя povodd'a "weather"
  • рӧм röm "color"
  • судта sudta "floor, storey"
  • сьӧд śöd "black"
  • талун talun "today" (a contracted form of тайӧ лун "this day")
  • телевизор t'el'evizor "television"
  • тӧв töv (*töl-) "wind" (also, "winter")
  • уна una "many" (like a normal adjective)
  • Финляндия Finl'and'ija "Finland"
Last edited by Mecislau on Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by marconatrix »

* This man is interesting. -- Tajö mortyd interesnaj
* Who has my pencil? -- Kodlön em menam karandaš
* The weather in Komi is bad. --Komi Muyn povodd'ays l'ok
* Today is a very windy day. -- Talun zev töla lun
* The night is black and starless. -- Vojys śöd da kodźuvtöm
* Who (pl) is in England? -- Kodjas em Angl'ijayn?
[Zev una jöz Angl'ijayn em!]
* Vorkuta is a snowy city. -- Lymja kar Vorkuta
* Do you have friends in Finland? -- Tenad jörtjas emöśö Finl'and'iayn?
* I have a color television. (lit. "many-colored television") -- Menam em una-röma t'el'evizor
* Does he have a pet? -- Sylön emö görtsa pemös?
* We have two sons and three daughters. -- Mijan emöś kyk pi da kuim nyv
* Canada is a country in North America. -- Mu Vojvyv Amerikayn Kanada
* Gorky Park is very beautiful. -- Gorky-ńima park zev mit'sa

* Their houses are two-storeyed. -- Nalön kerkajas kyk-sudtaaöś (This looks like a stative verb)
* Martin is in the Syktyvkar Railroad Station. -- Martyn em Syktyvkarlön Körttuj Stantśijayn
* What is his name? -- Sylön ńimys myjö?
Kyn nag ov den skentel pur ...

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Post by jmcd »

* This man is interesting. Tajö mort interesnöj
* Who has my pencil? kodlön menam karandaš?
* The weather in Komi is bad. Komiyn povodd'a l'ok
* Today is a very windy day. talun zev töla lun
* The night is black and starless. voj śöd kodźuvtöm
* Who (pl) is in England? Kodjas Angl'ijayn?
* Vorkuta is a snowy city. Vörkuta lymja kar.
* Do you have friends in Finland? jortjas Finl'and'ijayn emö tenad?
* I have a color television. (lit. "many-colored television") una röma t'el'evizor menam.
* Does he have a pet? (lit. "home animal" - think about what adjective ending you need) görta pemös emö sylön?
* We have two sons and three daughters. kyk pi da kuim nyv mijan.
* Canada is a country in North America. Kanada kanmu vojvyv Amerikayn
* Gorky Park is very beautiful. Gorky ńima park zev mitśa
These three are trickier:
* Their houses are two-storeyed. nalön kerkajas kyk sudtaaöś
* Martin is in the Syktyvkar Railroad Station. Martyn Syktyvkar kört tuj stantsijaysyn
* What is his name? (you know enough to do this, even though it requires a suffix)myj nim sylön (I'm sure this one, even if none of the others, is wrong because I just can't find any appropriate suffix.)

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Post by brandrinn »

This man is interesting. - Tajö mort interesnöj.
Who has my pencil? - Em kodlön menam karandaš? (Karandašöl?)
The weather in Komi is bad. - Komi muyn pavodd'a l'ok (pavodd'ays? Komi musa pavodd'a?)
Today is a very windy day. - Talun zev töla lun.
The night is black and starless. - Vojys śöd da kodźuvtöm.
Who (pl) is in England? - Em kodjas Angl'ijayn?
Vorkuta is a snowy city. - Vörkuta lymja kar.
Do you have friends in Finland? - Emöś tenad zonjas Finl'and'ijayn-ö?
I have a color television. - Em menam una röm-a t'el'evizor.
Does he have a pet? - Em-ö sylön gört-sa pemös?
We have two sons and three daughters. - Emöś mijan kyk pi da kuit nyv.
Canada is a country in North America. - Kanada Voivyv Amerika-sa kanmu.
Gorky Park is very beautiful. - Gorkyj Park zev mitśa.
Their houses are two-storeyed. - nalön kerkajas kyk sudta-a.
Martin is in the Syktyvkar Railroad Station. - Em Martin Syktyvkarsa kört tuj stantsijayn.
What is his name? - Myj sylön n'imys.
[quote="Nortaneous"]Is South Africa better off now than it was a few decades ago?[/quote]

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Post by Qwynegold »

I'm writing notes on paper so it'd be easier to check things, and came up with a question. After Ч and ДЗ, Э and І is not used?
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Post by Mecislau »

Ack, didn't expect this many replies at once!

Also, quick announcement: I realized I made a typo in the last vocab list. "Home" is горт gort, not гӧрт gört.



Marconatrix: You need to be more careful with your vowels.
marconatrix wrote:This man is interesting. -- Tajö mortyd interesnaj
int'eresnöj
marconatrix wrote:The night is black and starless. -- Vojys śöd da kodźuvtöm
Correct, but I would just like to take this opportunity to mention (to everyone) that the conjunction between adjectives is optional. You can also say Vojys śöd, kodźuvtöm.
macronatrix wrote:Who (pl) is in England? -- Kodjas em Angl'ijayn?
emöś

(This sentence works either with or without the emöś, with slightly different meanings)
marconatrix wrote:[Zev una jöz Angl'ijayn em!]
emöś - jöz takes plural agreement. But otherwise good job, that sentence works!
marconatrix wrote:Vorkuta is a snowy city. -- Lymja kar Vorkuta
Vörkuta
marconatrix wrote:Do you have friends in Finland? -- Tenad jörtjas emöśö Finl'and'iayn?
The interrogative -ö is not written as part of the word it's attached to. There's always a hyphen: emöś-ö

And it's jortjas, not jörtjas.
marconatrix wrote:I have a color television. (lit. "many-colored television") -- Menam em una-röma t'el'evizor
Good, but don't use a hyphen. Just una röma.
marconatrix wrote:Does he have a pet? -- Sylön emö görtsa pemös?
Same deal: em-ö
marconatrix wrote:Canada is a country in North America. -- Mu Vojvyv Amerikayn Kanada
Ack, as I said earlier, the order of nouns in Komi isn't quite so flexible. What you wrote there basically says "In America of the Terrestrial North is Canada".

It should be Kanada Vojvyv Amerikayn kanmu.
marconatrix wrote:Gorky Park is very beautiful. -- Gorky-ńima park zev mit'sa
Gorky ńima, no space. And I'm assuming this is just a typo, but it's mitśa, not mit'sa[/b].
marconatrix wrote:Their houses are two-storeyed. -- Nalön kerkajas kyk-sudtaaöś (This looks like a stative verb)


It should be kyk sudtaaöś, but good! You remembered to treat this as an adjective that must take plural endings. What do you mean about the stative verb?

marconatrix wrote:Martin is in the Syktyvkar Railroad Station. -- Martyn em Syktyvkarlön Körttuj Stantśijayn


Okay, a few issues here.

Minor errors: kört tuj; stantsijayn

More significant: This really should be Syktyvkarsa, not Syktyvkarlön. Use the adjective form because the station is question is actually "Syktyvkar Railroad Station" (ie, "Syktyvkar" is part of the name). You would use the genitive if there was more disconnect ("Syktyvkar's railroad station")

The earlier example of Rotśmulön jurkar for "capital of Russia" uses the genitive because there is slightly more disconnect: it's the capital of Russia, not the "Russia Capital".

Does that make any sense?

marconatrix wrote:What is his name? -- Sylön ńimys myjö?


Don't use -ö when there's an interrogative pronoun in the sentence ever. You only use it to convert a statement directly into a question. It's also probably better to front the interrogative pronoun: Myj sylön ńimys?



jmcd wrote:Who has my pencil? kodlön menam karandaš?


Kodlön em menam karandaš?

jmcd wrote:The weather in Komi is bad. Komiyn povodd'a l'ok


It's Komi muyn, and you probably want a definite noun here: povodd'ays.

jmcd wrote:Do you have friends in Finland? jortjas Finl'and'ijayn emö tenad?


Plural: emöś or emöś-ö

Also, for future reference, it generally sounds better to have tenad before the emöś.

jmcd wrote: * I have a color television. (lit. "many-colored television") una röma t'el'evizor menam.


menam em

jmcd wrote:Does he have a pet? (lit. "home animal" - think about what adjective ending you need) görta pemös emö sylön?


gortsa - "Home" counts as a location, so use -sa. Remember that -a basically means "having X", so "animal having a home" doesn't make as much sense as "animal in the home". (gortsa ~ "domestic")

And same deal with the interrogative ending: em-ö.

jmcd wrote: * We have two sons and three daughters. kyk pi da kuim nyv mijan.


mijan emöś.

jmcd wrote: * Martin is in the Syktyvkar Railroad Station. Martyn Syktyvkar kört tuj stantsijaysyn


Syktyvkarsa - when it's a place name functioning as an adjective 99% of the time it'll need -sa.

And don't use the definite article here. The fact that it's a proper noun implies it, plus as I said earlier the article interacts with case endings at times ("in the station" is actually stantsijaas)

jmcd wrote: * What is his name? (you know enough to do this, even though it requires a suffix)myj nim sylön (I'm sure this one, even if none of the others, is wrong because I just can't find any appropriate suffix.)


Use -ys, which is both the 3sg possessive ending as well as the definite article. Also, always place genitive pronouns before the noun they modify: Myj sylön ńimys?


brandrinn wrote:Who has my pencil? - Em kodlön menam karandaš? (Karandašöl?)


Just karandaš (and it's -öj, not -öl). Being a Russian loan word, it doesn't need possessive endings.

brandrinn wrote:The weather in Komi is bad. - Komi muyn pavodd'a l'ok (pavodd'ays? Komi musa pavodd'a?)


povodd'ays is ideal (and watch your vowels).

Both Komi muyn and Komi musa could work here, actually. The latter I would imagine implies a sort of permanence or inherent state (like "California weather is sunny" in English), while the former makes no statement as to permanence ("the weather in California is sunny").

brandrinn wrote:Who (pl) is in England? - Em kodjas Angl'ijayn?


emöś - remember, kodjas is plural.

brandrinn wrote:I have a color television. - Em menam una röm-a t'el'evizor.


No hyphen: una röma

brandrinn wrote:Does he have a pet? - Em-ö sylön gört-sa pemös?


No hyphen: gortsa pemös

brandrinn wrote:We have two sons and three daughters. - Emöś mijan kyk pi da kuit nyv.


kuim

brandrinn wrote:Canada is a country in North America. - Kanada Voivyv Amerika-sa kanmu.


Ah, not what I expected, but still correct. This is more like "Canada is a North American country".

However, drop the hyphen: Vojvyv Amerikasa

brandrinn wrote:Gorky Park is very beautiful. - Gorkyj Park zev mitśa.


This is where you need to use ńima "with the name (of)". Komi isn't quite so big on expressing names by simple adposition: Gorky ńima park.

brandrinn wrote:Their houses are two-storeyed. - nalön kerkajas kyk sudta-a.


First, drop the hyphen.

Second, you forgot the plural ending. Sudtaa is a predicate adjective with a plural antecedent, so the sentence should read Nalön kerkajas kyk sudtaaöś.

Yes, you pronounce all three of those vowels.


Qwynegold wrote:I'm writing notes on paper so it'd be easier to check things, and came up with a question. After Ч and ДЗ, Э and І is not used?


No, never. Ч and ДЗ are always soft; they're in effect identical to тсь and дзь. And Э and І are only used after hard consonants that also have soft counterparts.

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Post by Mecislau »

Also, if you're interested in hearing a little Komi, here's one of the few transcribed pieces of audio I can find on the interview, a song called Мыйла эськӧ Myjla eśkö "Why?"

http://foto11.com/komi/downloads/mp3/theatre01.mp3

Text: http://foto11.com/komi/art/singing/songjushkov.shtml

You'll probably notice the frequent pronunciation of Ö as closer to /E/ - this is a common feature of a number of Komi dialects, though not the standard.

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Post by marconatrix »

I'm puzzled by stanTSija since I though that it always had to be -- exceptions in loans from Russian??

Some of may mistakes with vowels etc. were because I wrote down the vocabulary and can't read my own writing :oops:

Also interferance from other languages. I admit I'm guessing when it comes to word-order.

Missing out the copula and inflecting the adjective for number, taken at face value makes it look as though the adjective X is in fact a stative verb meaning "to be X" -- Many languages work this way. The test might be whether adjectives also inflect for person.

Thanks!
Kyn nag ov den skentel pur ...

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Post by Xonen »

Mecislau wrote:кывъыс kyvjys
<ъы> for /j1/? Please tell me that's a typo. Not that I won't have to reform Komi spelling anyway, once I conquer Russia.
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Post by Mecislau »

marconatrix wrote:I'm puzzled by stanTSija since I though that it always had to be -- exceptions in loans from Russian??
Yes, sorry about that. The letter Ц (for /ts/) is only seen in recent Russian loans. It's basically the same as the sequence тс ts.
Xonen wrote:<1098> for /j1/? Please tell me that's a typo. Not that I won't have to reform Komi spelling anyway, once I conquer Russia.
Ack, you're right. That should read кывйыс, which admittedly isn't that much better, but it is somewhat of an improvement.

The Russian form of Cyrillic simply doesn't have a good way to indicate /j1/. Ideally Komi just needs its own glyph to represent any sort of /j/.

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Post by BettyCross »

Xonen wrote:
Mecislau wrote:кывъыс kyvjys
<1098> for /j1/? Please tell me that's a typo. Not that I won't have to reform Komi spelling anyway, once I conquer Russia.
Just be sure you've captured Volgograd before the first snow. :P

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May the odds be ever in your favor.
Oi sî đât sort điri
ever be-SUBJ the odds 2S-DAT

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Post by Xonen »

Тайӧ мортыс интереснӧй.
Кодлӧн эм менам карандаш.
Поводдя Коми муын лёк.
Талун зев тӧла лун.
Вой сьӧд да кодзувтӧм.
Кодъас Англияын? (But shouldn't the verb in the English be are, then? :?)
Вӧркута лымя кар.
Тэнад эмӧсь-ӧ ёртъяс Финляндияын?
Менам эм уна-рӧма телевизор.
Сылӧн эм-ӧ гортса пемӧс?
Миян эмӧсь кык пи да куим ныв.
Канада канму войвыв Америкаын.
Горкий нима парк зев мича.

Налӧн керкаяс кык-судтааӧсь.
Мартин Сыктывкар кӧрт туй станцияын.
Мый нимыс?
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Post by marconatrix »

Going on my native intuition, English doesn't have a plural of "who", or at least, it's unmarked for number. Maybe it's different over the pond?
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