Skomakar'n wrote:You don't consider Welsh your native tounge?
No, because it isn't. My first language was English. I can talk about the local dialectal differences of Welsh around here, if you want?
The main one that comes to mind instantly is the use of 'efo' as 'to have' in a kind of verbal construction, even though it means 'with':
Wyt | ti | efo | papur?
Are | you | with | paper?
Do you have paper?
The standard would be 'gan' or 'gyda':
Oes | papur | gyda | ti?
Is there | paper | with | you?
Oes | gen | ti | bapur?
Is there | with | you | paper?
But, weirdly, a lot of people seem to prefer 'gyda' for the usual use of 'with'. Also, there's a lot of Southern-Northern vocabulary mixing - although we're predominantly Northern, we also have a lot of Southern variants. We also like our periphrastic constructions, and most locals use auxiliaries instead of endings on all but the five main irregular verbs:
Nes | i | fwyta
Did | I | swimming
I swam (instead of nofies i, the inflected equivalent)
This is not a specifically local phenomenon and is characteristic of a lot of younger people, but even older people seem to prefer periphrasis with irregular verbs.
Skomakar'n wrote:You don't consider Welsh your native tounge?
No, because it isn't. My first language was English. I can talk about the local dialectal differences of Welsh around here, if you want?
The main one that comes to mind instantly is the use of 'efo' as 'to have' in a kind of verbal construction, even though it means 'with':
Wyt | ti | efo | papur?
Are | you | with | paper?
Do you have paper?
The standard would be 'gan' or 'gyda':
Oes | papur | gyda | ti?
Is there | paper | with | you?
Oes | gen | ti | bapur?
Is there | with | you | paper?
But, weirdly, a lot of people seem to prefer 'gyda' for the usual use of 'with'. Also, there's a lot of Southern-Northern vocabulary mixing - although we're predominantly Northern, we also have a lot of Southern variants. We also like our periphrastic constructions, and most locals use auxiliaries instead of endings on all but the five main irregular verbs:
Nes | i | fwyta
Did | I | swimming
I swam (instead of nofies i, the inflected equivalent)
This is not a specifically local phenomenon and is characteristic of a lot of younger people, but even older people seem to prefer periphrasis with irregular verbs.
That's an interesting way of expressing possession, since that's also the way I mostly do it in my Swedish dialect. In Standard Swedish, you'd probably say "jag haver svart hår" (I have black hair), while I would express it as "jag är med svart hår", spelled as "eg er med/vid svart hår" (I am with black hair).
I added a part about how my verb conjugation differs from the Standard Swedish one to the main post, by the way.
YngNghymru wrote:How do you distinguish between preterite and present if they're both pronounced hoppa?
Context. And this is very common in almost all dialects of Sweden, actually, so people are used to it (although, of course, most people also have an r at the end in the present form, but that is easily dropped or unheard by the listener as well).
In the sentences "eg hoppa" and "eg hoppade", they are obviously undistinguishable, but when saying that, it's usually a response or part of something you are already telling, and the listener is already aware of what tense you are using (and you can also speak about the past using the present tense, so that also makes it a bit easier).
rickardspaghetti wrote:I pronounce the "r" in the present tense. Distinction is no problem for me.
But you do drop the -de in the preterite tense, right? Just to show that it is indeed very common in most dialects.
Then, of course, Swedish (and Nordic Languages overall) has such a large base of verbs that are conjugated according to old or irregular patterns, and the most common verbs are mainly such ones, where it is easier to distinguish: är - var, fryser - frös, ligger - låg, tager - tog, springer - sprang, går - gick, köper - köpte and so on.
rickardspaghetti wrote:One thing that annoys me is the lack of a future tense. We must rely on auxilliaries. I want it to be part of conjugation. That'd be so awesome.
In some cases, of course, it's okay to use the present tense to express future.
I make use of the subjunctive fairly often, by the way (and I don't only talk about vore, leve and borde, but any word). Does anyone else do that?
Oh, and I also tend to express statements as though they were interrogative sentences, like "klarade hon sig dock fint" instead of "hon klarade sig dock fint". Not very often, but sometimes.
My German dialect (spoken in the east of Heilbronn, Baden-Württemberg) belongs originally to the South Franconian dialect group, but you can recognize a great influence of North Swabian dialects from the regions southwards.
As other southern German dialects, we dont really distinguish between unvoiced and voiced plosives, but rather between aspirated and unaspirated. Standard German's , for example, appears here as [b̥ ] initially. However, this distinction is made only word-initially. Intervocalicly, standart [pʰ tʰ kʰ] are represented as [b̥ d̥ g̥], while standart as approximants [ʋ ð̞ ɣ˕], although the latter two can also occur as [d̥ g̥], while [ʋ ɣ˕] sometimes rather sounds like [v ɣ], [ʋ] sometimes as [β], depending on the particular speaker and origin.
Generally, the idiom here is quite rich of velars and uvulars, since we also have pharyngealized vowels, which have developed out of oral vowels before [ʁ] and are phonemicly distinct from oral vowels (originally there was only one pharyngealized vowel [ɑˤ] (corresponding to standard <er>), which itself pharyngealized preceding vowels or even merged with them).
The situation of nasalized vowels as phonemes is a bit unclear, though. Swabian dialects use them a lot, and also here they had to exist since we dropped final nasals in unstressed syllables, but I do not really know if the current nasals are just direct borowings from Swabian or if they are originally from here. However, we have slightly nasalized vowels at least phoneticly as allophones of oral vowels in front of nasals in a closed syllable.
And we don't have any rounded front vowels, since they have been unrounded. And nasals can also occur allophonicly as syllable nucleus, e.g. standard dem corresponds with [ɐm] or [m̩] here. Ah, and there are some coarticulations not found in New High German, as [d̥͡g̥], for example in [ˈd̥͡g̥ʃb̥æ̃nʃd̥ɑˤɫə] "the little ghosts". And yes, we lost nearly every schwa occuring in New High German, so there are nice consonant clusters. =)
In terms of morphology, the cases have been, as in nearly most southern dialects, reduced to nominative, dative and accusative. E.g. possessive constructions consist of the possessor in the dative + possessive pronoun + possessum, standard "Das Haus des Freundes" would be something like [ɐm fʀɑɪnd̥ sɑɪ hʌʊs].
We lost, so far i see, all case endings. In return we have even more nouns building their plural form by umlauting, e.g. [nɔ̃m] "name" vs. [nɛ̃m] "names" in opposite to standard "Name vs. Namen", although [ˈnɔ̃mɜ] as plural form exists as well.
Since the case endings have been lost, the articles are the only case indicators remaining. The definite masculine article shall serve as example here:
___ SG___PL
NOM d̥ɑˤ | d̥
DAT ɐm/m̩ | ɜnɜ/d̥ɜ
ACC d̥ɜ | d̥
The article [d̥] often assimilates to the following sound, as seen in [ˈd̥͡g̥ʃb̥æ̃nʃd̥ɑˤɫə] above or also [tʰɪˤɑˤn] < [d̥ hɪˤɑˤn] "the brains".
In terms of verbs, we only have one plural ending for all regular verbs, namely -[ɜd̥], having evolved from the older plural endings -ant, -ont, -unt and so on. And we have nearly lost the whole preterite tense, whose function has been taken over by the perfekt tense. As the preterite is gone, also the pluperfect has disappeared and was taken over by a construction very common in southern dialects, namely putting the conjugated verb into the perfekt form, so "Ich war gegangen" (I had gone, lit. I was gone) has tourned into "Ich bin gegangen gewesen" (lit. I am gone been), which would be something like [i b̥ɪ̃ŋ ˈg̥ɑ̃ŋɜ g̥ʋɛː].
I think that is the most important stuff different from standard German...
Erm... my dialect's fairly standard Scottish. My accent is somewhere in between Edinburgh and SSBE, depending on how I feel, how drunk, etc. I'm usually rhotic, don't usually quite tell the difference between cot-caught (it's the same vowel quality but can be slightly longer), have a foot-strut split, trap-bath-palm are usually merged but palm might be [A] sometimes, etc. But we've done a phonology thread.
Morphosyntactically, there are a couple of odd constructions that crop up in Scottish standard dialect that don't in others, such as "my clothes need washed" (std "my clothes need washing"), or "see X, ..." for irrealis constructions (I think that was the term), but they don't tend to crop up much. There are a couple of other odd ones which crop up occasionally. I often collapse the difference between past participle and past tense, so end up with "I've went" (although in this case "I've gone" is often realised as "I've been" – but that's fairly normal). I can't think of any more at the moment. I'm sure they'll come to me.
And lexically I'm fairly sure I still use the occasional Scottish word that nobody else down here understands, which is amusing when it happens. Most of them have been stamped out of me through necessity of having to be understood. Certainly for a while I had Scottish-specific and English-specific slang words and couldn't tell the difference until I was called up on it by one or the other. The biggest things that stay in are actually the memes from Chewin the Fat.
As for a personal orthography, I absolutely don't agree with that stuff. But I get the impression that the Scandinavian way is to segment the orthography in oblique ways for reasons of pride, while the English-language way is to have one (or two very closely related) orthographies, which leads to greater international, and indeed intranational, comprehension. (I guess this is also to do with the grammar of English, because it doesn't vary as much as it seems to do for you guys, and we don't have much inflectional morphology) Hence I despise the very idea of a Scots orthography. It's ugly.
And yes, the more diminutives the smaller the object.
-Some of our adverbs have undergone significant semantic changes.
Bien means both "very" and "well". ¡Mi hijo está bien malo! does mean "My son is very ill!".
-It's not uncommon to use demonstratives this way: la muchacha esa, el foro este. This also bears a deprecative feeling.
-Heavy dequeísmo. I use entre de que quite a lot.
Entre de que te terminaras la tarea, yo alcancé a lavar los platos, pasar la escoba, y todavía hacer mi tarea.
-Indirect pronouns can be used in lots of places where they're forbidden in Standard Spanish. Doctors tell their patients Se me toma esta medicina, moms tell their children Se me acuestan temprano. This extra usages usually imply some sort of posession (a mom and her children) or the possibility of being affected by the results (a doctor and the patient).
-Local vocabulary, though that may be unnecesary to mention.
El pisto no nos alcanzó , y eso que a los bolados esos se les veía que eran bien chafas. Bueno, vergón, la vieja chachalaca nos va a estar esperando ahora para darnos verga ya que se lo habíamos jurado. Andá mirá si el Paco bayunco nos puede ayudar en esta, vaya virgada esta jarana que nos hicieron.
10 000 points to Azucar if he's around, reads the text, and can actually understand the paragraph without consulting his dad.
And yes, this is how I normally speak with other people my age. ...Unless pushed to elevate my register.
I've inherited a highly Kolkata-nized dialect of Birbhumi Bengali from my mother. Certain verbs usually give it away. For example, I sometimes pronounce lekʰa (write) as lækʰa, which sounds incredibly rustic to Kolkatan-Shantipuri ears. These non-standard vowels even go through the corresponding sound changes when inflected for tense:
lekʰt̪am rather than likʰt̪am (habitual past)
lekʰbo rather than likʰbo (future)
etc.
Interestingly, verbs in the honorific form aren't usually affected. I have none of the highly distinctive features of the Birbhum dialect though, such as replacing 'n's (sometimes 'g's and other random consonants too) with 'l's, etc.
Last edited by rotting bones on Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you hold a cat by the tail you learn things you cannot learn any other way. - Mark Twain
In reality, our greatest blessings come to us by way of madness, which indeed is a divine gift. - Socrates
Skomakar'n wrote:I do consider them the same language. >:
I mean, there are many Swedish dialects that differ more from Standard Swedish than certain Norwegian Dialects and Oslo Norwegian do.
I don't consider them the same language. I mean, there are many Norwegian dialects that differ more from Oslo Norwegian than certain Swedish dialects and Standard Swedish do.
[quote="Soviet Russia"]If you can't join them, beat them.[/quote]
Bien means both "very" and "well". ¡Mi hijo está bien malo! does mean "My son is very ill!".
How weird. In colloquial British English, 'well' can be used to mean 'very', and in Welsh, 'iawn' means both 'well' and 'very'... I wonder how many languages this occurs in?
El pisto no nos alcanzó , y eso que a los bolados esos se les veía que eran bien chafas. Bueno, vergón, la vieja chachalaca nos va a estar esperando ahora para darnos verga ya que se lo habíamos jurado. Andá mirá si el Paco bayunco nos puede ayudar en esta, vaya virgada esta jarana que nos hicieron.
compadre, I speak native spanish and I had trouble understanding this.
My best attempt at a translation.
"no nos alcanzaron na' las moneas, y eso que la volaita tenía pinta de estar ahi lista. bueno, filo nomas, corta, la vieja chillona nos va a estar esperando pa puro ponerle color, por que le habíamos dicho ya. Anda a tasar si el cochino del Paco nos puede prestar ropa, la mansa cagaita que nos armaron"
Torco wrote:El pisto no nos alcanzó , y eso que a los bolados esos se les veía que eran bien chafas. Bueno, vergón, la vieja chachalaca nos va a estar esperando ahora para darnos verga ya que se lo habíamos jurado. Andá mirá si el Paco bayunco nos puede ayudar en esta, vaya virgada esta jarana que nos hicieron.
compadre, I speak native spanish and I had trouble understanding this.
My best attempt at a translation.
"no nos alcanzaron na' las moneas, y eso que la volaita tenía pinta de estar ahi lista. bueno, filo nomas, corta, la vieja chillona nos va a estar esperando pa puro ponerle color, por que le habíamos dicho ya. Anda a tasar si el cochino del Paco nos puede prestar ropa, la mansa cagaita que nos armaron"
Jeje. El texto es exageradamente informal por supuesto... Lleno de vocabulario local a propósito. Aunque sí subestimé cuánto se puede recuperar sólo por el contexto. ^^ Parece una buena traducción según lo que la entiendo.
Hehe. The text is extremely informal of course... Full of local vocabulary on purpose. Although I did underestimate how much can be recovered from context only. ^^ It looks like a good translation as I understand it.
My idiolect has the complete merger of [9] and [@]. I hear no audible difference, and they merge into [9], as I clearly say [@] in English. I do not know if that is common throughout Normative Quebec French. People say there's a difference. Otherwise, Montreal French has vowel harmony related to vowel height, which I use whenever I relax my speech. (Note : it seems to be limited to Montreal. Why, I don't know. Aszev, of all people, masters it perfectly.)
Otherwise, Quebec French differs in many syntactical, morphological and lexical ways from Academie French, and Quebec pronounciation is infamously different in many ways : nasal vowels are slightly higher, we keep a clear distinction between mid-low and mid-high vowels, we merge [A] with [O], affricativization of [t] and [d] before and [y], vowel length is kept AND innovated (sur la table -> /sa:tab/, many [l]s fall etc. But I need not list all of it.
Torco wrote:El pisto no nos alcanzó , y eso que a los bolados esos se les veía que eran bien chafas. Bueno, vergón, la vieja chachalaca nos va a estar esperando ahora para darnos verga ya que se lo habíamos jurado. Andá mirá si el Paco bayunco nos puede ayudar en esta, vaya virgada esta jarana que nos hicieron.
compadre, I speak native spanish and I had trouble understanding this.
My best attempt at a translation.
"no nos alcanzaron na' las moneas, y eso que la volaita tenía pinta de estar ahi lista. bueno, filo nomas, corta, la vieja chillona nos va a estar esperando pa puro ponerle color, por que le habíamos dicho ya. Anda a tasar si el cochino del Paco nos puede prestar ropa, la mansa cagaita que nos armaron"
Jeje. El texto es exageradamente informal por supuesto... Lleno de vocabulario local a propósito. Aunque sí subestimé cuánto se puede recuperar sólo por el contexto. ^^ Parece una buena traducción según lo que la entiendo.
That's latin american cultural brotherhood for you'
...Unless pushed to elevate my register.
