Odd natlang features thread
Re: Odd natlang features thread
är, ehr > aˁː
er > oˁ
as far as I can tell.
er > oˁ
as far as I can tell.
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- Lebom
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
I'm not sure how weird this is, so I'll post it here for confirmation.
In Menominee, /i̯a/ and /u̯a/ are constrative with /ja/ and /wa/.
In Menominee, /i̯a/ and /u̯a/ are constrative with /ja/ and /wa/.
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- Avisaru
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
Not so much. According some analyses, Spanish also contrasts /j/ and nonsyllabic /i/.Dē Graut Bʉr wrote:That's quite weird.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
And in French, all analyses show a phonemic distinction between /j/ and /i/. There are minimal pairs but the one I'm thinking of depends on a slightly non-standard accent: pays /pe.i/ and paye /pej/ (otherwise /pɛj/). In some cases (but not this one), this is because /j/ derives from older /ʎ/.
And English doesn't have a relationship between the two either due to the Great Vowel Shift.
And English doesn't have a relationship between the two either due to the Great Vowel Shift.
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- Avisaru
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
Porphyrogenitos seemed to be talking about a contrast between /j/ and non-syllabic /i/ though.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Fixed. (If it were a contrast with syllabic /i/, why would I bother bringing it up?)Dē Graut Bʉr wrote:Porphyrogenitos seemed to be talking about a contrast between /j/ and non-syllabic /i/ though.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Ah yes. I wasn't attentive enough. That's something I need to work on. So Porphyrogenitos=Linguoboy?
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Are you sure that those are rising diphthongs and not falling, i.e. are you sure that they're /i̯a u̯a/ and not /ia̯ ua̯/? The Wikipedia article doesn't actually say that they are /i̯a/ and /u̯a/, it simply writes /ia/ and /ua/. It does say that they pattern with long vowels which I believe is more common for falling diphthongs.Porphyrogenitos wrote:I'm not sure how weird this is, so I'll post it here for confirmation.
In Menominee, /i̯a/ and /u̯a/ are constrative with /ja/ and /wa/.
Many languages actually have falling opening diphthongs contrasting with the equivalent semivowel+vowel sequence. Finnish has /ie̯/ contrasting with /je/ (I'm almost sure), for example. And some varieties of English has falling centering diphthongs /ɪə̯ ʊə̯/ that are distinct from /jə wə/ although I'm not sure whether they can occur in the same environment.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
In Archi, some pronouns undergo agreement marking. An example:
d-ez un malgan
II.SG-1SG.DAT 2SG.ABS be.dear
You (female) are dear to me (male).
Where the d- of the dative pronoun -ez is noun class agreement with the absolutive un.
Particles and postpositions can also agree with the subject, rather than their own referent. Main-clause auxiliaries sometimes agree with things inside a dependent clause. Most verbs are unmarked for agreement, while some have up to four slots to mark agreement and can mark agreement with the same referent multiple times (at least two, they don't have examples higher than that).
d-ez un malgan
II.SG-1SG.DAT 2SG.ABS be.dear
You (female) are dear to me (male).
Where the d- of the dative pronoun -ez is noun class agreement with the absolutive un.
Particles and postpositions can also agree with the subject, rather than their own referent. Main-clause auxiliaries sometimes agree with things inside a dependent clause. Most verbs are unmarked for agreement, while some have up to four slots to mark agreement and can mark agreement with the same referent multiple times (at least two, they don't have examples higher than that).
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- Lebom
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
Well, it turns out the Chimakuan languages (all two of them) are an odd bunch. Quileute has a very curious morphological feature:
EDIT: Oh and Quileute also lacks nasals. Though I know these last two aren't actually unusual among the PNW sprachbund.
Meanwhile, the other language in the family, Chemakum, did not have any velars - though it did have labiovelars, plain and labial uvulars, and glottals.Quileute features an interesting prefix system that changes depending on the physical characteristics of the person being spoken to. When speaking to a cross-eyed person, [ƛ-] is prefixed to each word. When speaking to a hunchback, the prefix /c̀-/ is used. Additional prefixes are also used for short men (/s-/), "funny people" (/čk/), and people that have difficulty walking (/čχ̣/).
EDIT: Oh and Quileute also lacks nasals. Though I know these last two aren't actually unusual among the PNW sprachbund.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Are we sure that the last speakers weren't just pulling the legs of the linguists documenting the language?Porphyrogenitos wrote:Well, it turns out the Chimakuan languages (all two of them) are an odd bunch. Quileute has a very curious morphological feature:
Quileute features an interesting prefix system that changes depending on the physical characteristics of the person being spoken to. When speaking to a cross-eyed person, [ƛ-] is prefixed to each word. When speaking to a hunchback, the prefix /c̀-/ is used. Additional prefixes are also used for short men (/s-/), "funny people" (/čk/), and people that have difficulty walking (/čχ̣/).
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- Lebom
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
Haha, I don't know. Odd little socio-morpho-phonological features like that don't seem terribly uncommon among Native American languages. For example, Natchez has a special register used when pretending to be a cannibal:hwhatting wrote:Are we sure that the last speakers weren't just pulling the legs of the linguists documenting the language?Porphyrogenitos wrote:Well, it turns out the Chimakuan languages (all two of them) are an odd bunch. Quileute has a very curious morphological feature:
Quileute features an interesting prefix system that changes depending on the physical characteristics of the person being spoken to. When speaking to a cross-eyed person, [ƛ-] is prefixed to each word. When speaking to a hunchback, the prefix /c̀-/ is used. Additional prefixes are also used for short men (/s-/), "funny people" (/čk/), and people that have difficulty walking (/čχ̣/).
Traditionally the Natchez had certain stories that could only be told during the winter time, and many of these stories revolved around the theme of cannibalism. Protagonists in such stories would encounter cannibals, trick cannibals, marry the daughters of cannibals, kill cannibals, and be eaten by cannibals. In these stories Natchez storytellers would employ a special speech register when impersonating the cannibal characters. This register was distinct from ordinary Natchez by substituting several morphemes and words for others.
In this example the standard optative prefix -ʔa- is exchanged for the cannibal register optative prefix -ka-
kapiʃkʷãː
ka-pi-ʃkʷ-aː-n
first.person.optative.(cannibal)-pl-eat-incompletive-phrasal.termination
"Let us [cannibals] eat him!"
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- Sumerul
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
seems plausible. didn't Greek use specific dialects for specific sorts of play? could be something like that -- imitating another dialect then generalizing from there.
(totally going to do that in a conlang)
(totally going to do that in a conlang)
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Mithun gives a few pages for this in The Languages of Native North America and writes that when telling stories in the languages especially around the NW Coast area storytellers adopt a variety of different speech effects when doing the lines of certain legendary characters. She also includes Quileute in the examples though talks about different modifications for it than what you did and doesn't mention anything about modifications based on the addressee. Here are just some quotes from pp. 274-5 in the book:Porphyrogenitos wrote:Haha, I don't know. Odd little socio-morpho-phonological features like that don't seem terribly uncommon among Native American languages. For example, Natchez has a special register used when pretending to be a cannibal
Sapir reports that the Nootka culture hero Kwátiyaˑt typically inserts χ after the first vowel of a word ... Raven inserts -čχ- into words. Deer and Mink replace all sibilants with laterals (as one does for persons with defects of the eye).
(The same shift /m n/ > /b d/ happened at least in Makah, Ditidaht, Lushootseed and the Chimakuan languages causing them some extent of lack of nasals.)In Quileute mythological beings and animals also have distinctive speech. The culture hero Q'ǽtiˑ prefixes sx- to every word; Raven prefixes š-; Raven's wife prefixes c- and shifts d and l to n, and b to m ... Deer prefixes ƛk- to every word and shifts all sibilants to laterals. In Lushootseed Raven replaces b and d with corresponding nasals m and n. This pattern reverses a sound shift in Lushootseed whereby original nasals were replaced by the voiced stops.
Coyote's use of inappropriate vocabulary, distorted or nonsense speech, and special forms appears all over the West. He shifts s to š in Coeur d'Alene, s to š and n to l in Nez Perce, s to xʲ in Kutenai, infixes ʎ in Cocopa and Yuma, and suffixes -pai in Shoshone and -ajakʲ Chemehuevi.
Sapir reported that in Takelma the prefix sˑ- typically occurs in the speech of Coyote and ł- in the speech of Grizzly Bear.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Very interesting!
- alynnidalar
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
Did Raven's wife have a cold?gach wrote:(The same shift /m n/ > /b d/ happened at least in Makah, Ditidaht, Lushootseed and the Chimakuan languages causing them some extent of lack of nasals.)Raven's wife prefixes c- and shifts d and l to n, and b to m ...
I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Probably was just a nagging conservative fed up with a misbehaving husband.alynnidalar wrote:Did Raven's wife have a cold?
Re: Odd natlang features thread
This is awesome!!!Porphyrogenitos wrote:Well, it turns out the Chimakuan languages (all two of them) are an odd bunch. Quileute has a very curious morphological feature:
Quileute features an interesting prefix system that changes depending on the physical characteristics of the person being spoken to. When speaking to a cross-eyed person, [ƛ-] is prefixed to each word. When speaking to a hunchback, the prefix /c̀-/ is used. Additional prefixes are also used for short men (/s-/), "funny people" (/čk/), and people that have difficulty walking (/čχ̣/).
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Notably, the same source mentions that the -čχ- morpheme in Nootka is also used when referring to greedy people, and that Raven, as portrayed in Nootka mythology, was noted for being a glutton. I'd guess that the morpheme, and probably many or all of the other Chimakuan speech patterns marking individual traits, emerged first in storytelling and were subsequently adopted into everyday speech, which is really cool. Kind of reminds me of Darmok... and suddenly I'm tempted to make a conlang with a whole set or morphemes used solely for making literary allusions.gach wrote:Sapir reports that the Nootka culture hero Kwátiyaˑt typically inserts χ after the first vowel of a word ... Raven inserts -čχ- into words. Deer and Mink replace all sibilants with laterals (as one does for persons with defects of the eye).
Last edited by CatDoom on Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Lol, this is kinda like Japanese where -nya is used in cat speech. In manga and anime they tend to make up all kinds of suffixes that certain characters use.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Taa uses u with bar for a long u and tildes under for strident voice in the Latin script. What does u with bar actually stand for in Taa?
Hello there. Chirp chirp chirp.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
mid tone.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Rapidly spoken Danish can have some pretty crazy vowel clusters, due to a high degree of consonant reduction, sometimes even of the same vowel.
Example:
"Er en dyreskueuge uudholdelig?" (Audio recording (not sure how to write it in IPA): http://bit.ly/1DhDGaL)
(The underlined part is more or less the same vowel over and over again)
"Is a week of county fair unbearable?"
Example:
"Er en dyreskueuge uudholdelig?" (Audio recording (not sure how to write it in IPA): http://bit.ly/1DhDGaL)
(The underlined part is more or less the same vowel over and over again)
"Is a week of county fair unbearable?"
Languages i speak fluently: Dansk, English
Languages i am studying: Deutsch, Español
Languages i am studying: Deutsch, Español
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Spoken Danish... the rumours are all true. We went to Copenhagen over the new year, and while understanding written Danish is doable with knowing German and English, I was unable to understand almost anything spoken (Except für Godt Nytår, because I heard that often enough )