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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:33 am 
Lebom
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är, ehr > aˁː
er > oˁ
as far as I can tell.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:12 pm 
Lebom
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I'm not sure how weird this is, so I'll post it here for confirmation.

In Menominee, /i̯a/ and /u̯a/ are constrative with /ja/ and /wa/.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:50 pm 
Avisaru
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That's quite weird.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:09 pm 
Sanno
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Dē Graut Bʉr wrote:
That's quite weird.

Not so much. According some analyses, Spanish also contrasts /j/ and nonsyllabic /i/.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:51 am 
Sumerul
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And in French, all analyses show a phonemic distinction between /j/ and /i/. There are minimal pairs but the one I'm thinking of depends on a slightly non-standard accent: pays /pe.i/ and paye /pej/ (otherwise /pɛj/). In some cases (but not this one), this is because /j/ derives from older /ʎ/.

And English doesn't have a relationship between the two either due to the Great Vowel Shift.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:49 am 
Avisaru
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Porphyrogenitos seemed to be talking about a contrast between /j/ and non-syllabic /i/ though.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:54 am 
Sanno
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Dē Graut Bʉr wrote:
Porphyrogenitos seemed to be talking about a contrast between /j/ and non-syllabic /i/ though.

Fixed. (If it were a contrast with syllabic /i/, why would I bother bringing it up?)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:39 am 
Sumerul
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Ah yes. I wasn't attentive enough. That's something I need to work on. So Porphyrogenitos=Linguoboy?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:54 am 
Sanci
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Porphyrogenitos wrote:
I'm not sure how weird this is, so I'll post it here for confirmation.

In Menominee, /i̯a/ and /u̯a/ are constrative with /ja/ and /wa/.
Are you sure that those are rising diphthongs and not falling, i.e. are you sure that they're /i̯a u̯a/ and not /ia̯ ua̯/? The Wikipedia article doesn't actually say that they are /i̯a/ and /u̯a/, it simply writes /ia/ and /ua/. It does say that they pattern with long vowels which I believe is more common for falling diphthongs.

Many languages actually have falling opening diphthongs contrasting with the equivalent semivowel+vowel sequence. Finnish has /ie̯/ contrasting with /je/ (I'm almost sure), for example. And some varieties of English has falling centering diphthongs /ɪə̯ ʊə̯/ that are distinct from /jə wə/ although I'm not sure whether they can occur in the same environment.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:11 pm 
Avisaru
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In Archi, some pronouns undergo agreement marking. An example:
d-ez un malgan
II.SG-1SG.DAT 2SG.ABS be.dear
You (female) are dear to me (male).
Where the d- of the dative pronoun -ez is noun class agreement with the absolutive un.

Particles and postpositions can also agree with the subject, rather than their own referent. Main-clause auxiliaries sometimes agree with things inside a dependent clause. Most verbs are unmarked for agreement, while some have up to four slots to mark agreement and can mark agreement with the same referent multiple times (at least two, they don't have examples higher than that).


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:04 pm 
Lebom
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Well, it turns out the Chimakuan languages (all two of them) are an odd bunch. Quileute has a very curious morphological feature:

Quote:
Quileute features an interesting prefix system that changes depending on the physical characteristics of the person being spoken to. When speaking to a cross-eyed person, [ƛ-] is prefixed to each word. When speaking to a hunchback, the prefix /c̀-/ is used. Additional prefixes are also used for short men (/s-/), "funny people" (/čk/), and people that have difficulty walking (/čχ̣/).


Meanwhile, the other language in the family, Chemakum, did not have any velars - though it did have labiovelars, plain and labial uvulars, and glottals.

EDIT: Oh and Quileute also lacks nasals. Though I know these last two aren't actually unusual among the PNW sprachbund.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:24 am 
Sumerul
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Porphyrogenitos wrote:
Well, it turns out the Chimakuan languages (all two of them) are an odd bunch. Quileute has a very curious morphological feature:

Quote:
Quileute features an interesting prefix system that changes depending on the physical characteristics of the person being spoken to. When speaking to a cross-eyed person, [ƛ-] is prefixed to each word. When speaking to a hunchback, the prefix /c̀-/ is used. Additional prefixes are also used for short men (/s-/), "funny people" (/čk/), and people that have difficulty walking (/čχ̣/).

Are we sure that the last speakers weren't just pulling the legs of the linguists documenting the language?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:45 am 
Lebom
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hwhatting wrote:
Porphyrogenitos wrote:
Well, it turns out the Chimakuan languages (all two of them) are an odd bunch. Quileute has a very curious morphological feature:

Quote:
Quileute features an interesting prefix system that changes depending on the physical characteristics of the person being spoken to. When speaking to a cross-eyed person, [ƛ-] is prefixed to each word. When speaking to a hunchback, the prefix /c̀-/ is used. Additional prefixes are also used for short men (/s-/), "funny people" (/čk/), and people that have difficulty walking (/čχ̣/).

Are we sure that the last speakers weren't just pulling the legs of the linguists documenting the language?


Haha, I don't know. Odd little socio-morpho-phonological features like that don't seem terribly uncommon among Native American languages. For example, Natchez has a special register used when pretending to be a cannibal:

Quote:
Traditionally the Natchez had certain stories that could only be told during the winter time, and many of these stories revolved around the theme of cannibalism. Protagonists in such stories would encounter cannibals, trick cannibals, marry the daughters of cannibals, kill cannibals, and be eaten by cannibals. In these stories Natchez storytellers would employ a special speech register when impersonating the cannibal characters. This register was distinct from ordinary Natchez by substituting several morphemes and words for others.

In this example the standard optative prefix -ʔa- is exchanged for the cannibal register optative prefix -ka-

kapiʃkʷãː
ka-pi-ʃkʷ-aː-n
first.person.optative.(cannibal)-pl-eat-incompletive-phrasal.termination
"Let us [cannibals] eat him!"


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:36 pm 
Osän
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seems plausible. didn't Greek use specific dialects for specific sorts of play? could be something like that -- imitating another dialect then generalizing from there.

(totally going to do that in a conlang)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:29 pm 
Smeric
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Porphyrogenitos wrote:
Haha, I don't know. Odd little socio-morpho-phonological features like that don't seem terribly uncommon among Native American languages. For example, Natchez has a special register used when pretending to be a cannibal


Mithun gives a few pages for this in The Languages of Native North America and writes that when telling stories in the languages especially around the NW Coast area storytellers adopt a variety of different speech effects when doing the lines of certain legendary characters. She also includes Quileute in the examples though talks about different modifications for it than what you did and doesn't mention anything about modifications based on the addressee. Here are just some quotes from pp. 274-5 in the book:

Quote:
Sapir reports that the Nootka culture hero Kwátiyaˑt typically inserts χ after the first vowel of a word ... Raven inserts -čχ- into words. Deer and Mink replace all sibilants with laterals (as one does for persons with defects of the eye).

Quote:
In Quileute mythological beings and animals also have distinctive speech. The culture hero Q'ǽtiˑ prefixes sx- to every word; Raven prefixes š-; Raven's wife prefixes c- and shifts d and l to n, and b to m ... Deer prefixes ƛk- to every word and shifts all sibilants to laterals. In Lushootseed Raven replaces b and d with corresponding nasals m and n. This pattern reverses a sound shift in Lushootseed whereby original nasals were replaced by the voiced stops.

(The same shift /m n/ > /b d/ happened at least in Makah, Ditidaht, Lushootseed and the Chimakuan languages causing them some extent of lack of nasals.)
Quote:
Coyote's use of inappropriate vocabulary, distorted or nonsense speech, and special forms appears all over the West. He shifts s to š in Coeur d'Alene, s to š and n to l in Nez Perce, s to in Kutenai, infixes ʎ in Cocopa and Yuma, and suffixes -pai in Shoshone and -ajakʲ Chemehuevi.

Quote:
Sapir reported that in Takelma the prefix sˑ- typically occurs in the speech of Coyote and ł- in the speech of Grizzly Bear.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:27 am 
Sumerul
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Very interesting!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:32 pm 
Avisaru
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gach wrote:
Quote:
Raven's wife prefixes c- and shifts d and l to n, and b to m ...

(The same shift /m n/ > /b d/ happened at least in Makah, Ditidaht, Lushootseed and the Chimakuan languages causing them some extent of lack of nasals.)


Did Raven's wife have a cold?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:59 pm 
Smeric
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alynnidalar wrote:
Did Raven's wife have a cold?


Probably was just a nagging conservative fed up with a misbehaving husband.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:13 am 
Smeric
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Porphyrogenitos wrote:
Well, it turns out the Chimakuan languages (all two of them) are an odd bunch. Quileute has a very curious morphological feature:

Quote:
Quileute features an interesting prefix system that changes depending on the physical characteristics of the person being spoken to. When speaking to a cross-eyed person, [ƛ-] is prefixed to each word. When speaking to a hunchback, the prefix /c̀-/ is used. Additional prefixes are also used for short men (/s-/), "funny people" (/čk/), and people that have difficulty walking (/čχ̣/).


This is awesome!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:27 am 
Avisaru
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gach wrote:
Quote:
Sapir reports that the Nootka culture hero Kwátiyaˑt typically inserts χ after the first vowel of a word ... Raven inserts -čχ- into words. Deer and Mink replace all sibilants with laterals (as one does for persons with defects of the eye).


Notably, the same source mentions that the -čχ- morpheme in Nootka is also used when referring to greedy people, and that Raven, as portrayed in Nootka mythology, was noted for being a glutton. I'd guess that the morpheme, and probably many or all of the other Chimakuan speech patterns marking individual traits, emerged first in storytelling and were subsequently adopted into everyday speech, which is really cool. Kind of reminds me of Darmok... and suddenly I'm tempted to make a conlang with a whole set or morphemes used solely for making literary allusions. :P


Last edited by CatDoom on Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:19 am 
Visanom
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Lol, this is kinda like Japanese where -nya is used in cat speech. :mrgreen: In manga and anime they tend to make up all kinds of suffixes that certain characters use.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:19 pm 
Avisaru
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Taa uses u with bar for a long u and tildes under for strident voice in the Latin script. What does u with bar actually stand for in Taa?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:15 pm 
Sumerul
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mid tone.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:26 pm 
Lebom
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Rapidly spoken Danish can have some pretty crazy vowel clusters, due to a high degree of consonant reduction, sometimes even of the same vowel.
Example:
"Er en dyreskueuge uudholdelig?" (Audio recording (not sure how to write it in IPA): http://bit.ly/1DhDGaL)
(The underlined part is more or less the same vowel over and over again)
"Is a week of county fair unbearable?"

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:06 pm 
Sumerul
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Spoken Danish... the rumours are all true. We went to Copenhagen over the new year, and while understanding written Danish is doable with knowing German and English, I was unable to understand almost anything spoken (Except für Godt Nytår, because I heard that often enough ;-) )


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