zompist bboard

THIS IS AN ARCHIVE ONLY - see Ephemera
It is currently Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:08 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 355 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:03 am 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:27 am
Posts: 108
Location: Western Jutland, Denmark
hwhatting wrote:
Spoken Danish... the rumours are all true. We went to Copenhagen over the new year, and while understanding written Danish is doable with knowing German and English, I was unable to understand almost anything spoken (Except für Godt Nytår, because I heard that often enough ;-) )

All the rumors dude!, including this wonderfull mess of a vowel system (this only includes phonemic vowels according to Nina Grønnum, most of them come both long and short, and with/without "stød" (creaky voice ([ʔ] i some dialects)). In total Diederichsen has counted up more than 40 vowel phonemes! This is of course violent and unstable.

_________________
Languages i speak fluently: Dansk, English
Languages i am studying: Deutsch, Español


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:22 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:34 am
Posts: 427
Location: Virginia
So more like 64 vowels. And Danish is the only language to have a low front rounded vowel.

_________________
Hello there. Chirp chirp chirp.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:38 am 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
Quote:
In several different subgroups of Austro-Asiatic, all words end in consonants.
This was true of Dvaravati Old Mon, and holds for modern Palaungic, Khmuic, and
Aslian branches, where final open syllables do not exist except in borrowings.

http://julietteblevins.ws.gc.cuny.edu/f ... pology.pdf

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:12 am 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:27 am
Posts: 108
Location: Western Jutland, Denmark
Birdlang wrote:
So more like 64 vowels. And Danish is the only language to have a low front rounded vowel.

Well not 64 phonemes due to reduction and rules for the distribution of stød based on vowel length, following consonants, placement of syllabic stress, ... Also stød can be interpreted as a prosodic feature rather than a property of the vowels which leaves one with "only" ~32 vowel phonemes.
With regars to /ɶ/ danish is the only language I know has one and when looking at the WALS page for front rounded vowels it seems plausible that it is very rare or even restricted to danish but do you have any source for that. If yes, then i would really like to see it.

_________________
Languages i speak fluently: Dansk, English
Languages i am studying: Deutsch, Español


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:24 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:50 am
Posts: 1611
gufferdk wrote:
Birdlang wrote:
So more like 64 vowels. And Danish is the only language to have a low front rounded vowel.

Well not 64 phonemes due to reduction and rules for the distribution of stød based on vowel length, following consonants, placement of syllabic stress, ... Also stød can be interpreted as a prosodic feature rather than a property of the vowels which leaves one with "only" ~32 vowel phonemes.
With regars to /ɶ/ danish is the only language I know has one and when looking at the WALS page for front rounded vowels it seems plausible that it is very rare or even restricted to danish but do you have any source for that. If yes, then i would really like to see it.

Does Danish distinguish between /ɶ/ and other front rounded phonemes?

_________________
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.

If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:57 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
Kalaallisut is the only language with a uvular nasal.

(There are four languages with one in PHOIBLE, but the 'uvular nasal' in Japanese [and Burmese, which isn't listed] is a convention of notation, the Kusunda uvular nasal is probably a /ŋʕ/ cluster, and the fourth is Kinyarwanda, which doesn't have one.)

Some rGyalrongic languages have contrastive velarization on vowels. (IIRC Japhug turned velarization into a preceding ɣ, but I could be wrong.) In Showu Rgyalrong, velarized vowels contrast with Vɣ ɣV sequences. Velarized vowels could show up elsewhere in Sino-Tibetan -- I wonder if that's what distinguishes Yi <y u> from <yr ur>.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:51 am 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 93
Colloquial Indonesian, and (formal Indonesian to some level) distinguish gender in 2nd person pronoun but not in 3rd (or 1st).

But then again, I think this is mostly true for many languages in Asia.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:37 am 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
Mongolic aspiration processes are triggered by /s ʃ/.

Dissimilation in Chahar:
*tʰatʰa > tatʰ
*tʃʰikʰin > tʃix
*kʰitʰat > kitʰat
*tʰosun > tɔs
*tʃʰisun > tʃʊs

Leftward aspiration jump in Monguor:
*totʰara > tʰutor
*tøtʃʰin > tʰitʃin
*pitʃʰi > pʰutʃi
*kasihun > xaʃin
*pyse > pʰusee
*ykʰy > xuku

----

Aspirated fricatives in Chumashan derived from either Fh clusters or degemination of F:. Aspirated fricatives from degemination also in Southern Subanen.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:22 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
Posts: 734
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands
Yaali Annar wrote:
Colloquial Indonesian, and (formal Indonesian to some level) distinguish gender in 2nd person pronoun but not in 3rd (or 1st).

But then again, I think this is mostly true for many languages in Asia.

This is also true for Iraqw (Cushitic, Tanzania)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:52 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:35 pm
Posts: 492
Location: Michigan, USA
I was having a look around PHOIBLE and discovered that Mwotlap/Motlav is listed as having /m̃ʷ/. That's right, a nasalized nasal.

Am... am I missing something?

Either way, I think it definitely qualifies as "odd".

_________________
I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:43 am 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
alynnidalar wrote:
I was having a look around PHOIBLE and discovered that Mwotlap/Motlav is listed as having /m̃ʷ/. That's right, a nasalized nasal.

Am... am I missing something?

Either way, I think it definitely qualifies as "odd".

Somebody fucked up. My guess is that whoever added the data saw that /ŋmʷ/ (not /mʷ/) is written <m̃> and got confused. They also left out /k/, and wrote the prenasalized stops with tildes, which is retarded and obviously against convention.

These inventory databases can be statistically useful, because the inevitable data-entry fuckups won't generate *that* much noise, but they can't be trusted about any individual language. Mwotlap is a fairly normal language for its area -- the only thing odd about its phoneme inventory is the (non-contrastively) labialized labial-velars, and I wonder how common the phonetic detail of labialization is...

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:36 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:35 pm
Posts: 492
Location: Michigan, USA
Well, that certainly makes a great deal more sense. I was wondering if something like that was going on. Serves as an excellent lesson to not just blindly trust your resources!

_________________
I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:40 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAb1-ZnipoQ

those sure are some fricated vowels

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:27 am 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:46 am
Posts: 1035
Location: Réunion
Nortaneous wrote:
alynnidalar wrote:
I was having a look around PHOIBLE and discovered that Mwotlap/Motlav is listed as having /m̃ʷ/. That's right, a nasalized nasal.

Am... am I missing something?

Either way, I think it definitely qualifies as "odd".

Somebody fucked up. My guess is that whoever added the data saw that /ŋmʷ/ (not /mʷ/) is written <m̃> and got confused. They also left out /k/, and wrote the prenasalized stops with tildes, which is retarded and obviously against convention.

These inventory databases can be statistically useful, because the inevitable data-entry fuckups won't generate *that* much noise, but they can't be trusted about any individual language. Mwotlap is a fairly normal language for its area -- the only thing odd about its phoneme inventory is the (non-contrastively) labialized labial-velars, and I wonder how common the phonetic detail of labialization is...
Is there any way to contact them about the mix-up?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:32 am 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:34 pm
Posts: 1606
Location: Stockholm
I just checked that site, and their Finnish page was also odd. It reported vowels /ɛ e: o o: a a: e̯/. There are no quality differences between long and short vowels; the mid vowels are mid and not mid-high or mid-low, so it's odd that they wrote /ɛ e:/. The /a a:/ are supposed to be back. First I thought that they were just not being that detailed, but the vowel chart showed all vowels in their cardinal positions, so that was wrong. And I checked and saw that for example Maori reportedly had /ɑ ɑ:/ with no /a a:/. And what on Earth is that /e̯/??

_________________
Image
My most recent quiz:
Eurovision Song Contest 2018


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:03 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:34 am
Posts: 402
Location: North Yorkshire, UK
Qwynegold wrote:
And what on Earth is that /e̯/??


It looks like that's how whoever entered the data has chosen to represent /j/ (which is absent from the inventory given). It's definitely a weird way of representing it :?

_________________
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:54 am 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:34 pm
Posts: 1606
Location: Stockholm
sangi39 wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:
And what on Earth is that /e̯/??


It looks like that's how whoever entered the data has chosen to represent /j/ (which is absent from the inventory given). It's definitely a weird way of representing it :?

Oh, I see. And yeah, then why not /i̯/? I mean, it's not lowered somehow.

_________________
Image
My most recent quiz:
Eurovision Song Contest 2018


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:15 am 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:15 pm
Posts: 1418
Mussau has quadral number. (only in the pronouns, as is typical for number distinction in Oceania)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:27 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
Posts: 734
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands
Theta wrote:
Mussau has quadral number. (only in the pronouns, as is typical for number distinction in Oceania)

Quadral number? What a weird term. Just say it distinguishes singular, dualis, trialis and plural please. We don't call sg-du-pl systems 'trial number' either do we? ( in fact in english the -is endings are usually dropped, giving dual and trial, though trial sounds a bit confusing to me).

And having a trialis is unusual cross-linguistically, but it occurs in many languages in Oceania and some traces of it are found in the Bislama pidgin language of vanuatu.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:00 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:15 pm
Posts: 1418
How about you read the fucking paper before you make assumptions about the terminology. The section on Mussau is on page 8.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:02 am 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 93
I think it's less weird when you figure out that the dual-trial-quadral distinction in oceanic language is basically pronoun + numeral.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:12 am 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:27 am
Posts: 108
Location: Western Jutland, Denmark
Pole, the wrote:
gufferdk wrote:
Birdlang wrote:
Stuff about danish

Answers to questions abowe

Does Danish distinguish between /ɶ/ and other front rounded phonemes?

Well that depends a lot on dialect (a vowel system of that caliber is, of course, unstable). In the way i speak it does not, [ɶ] simply being an allophone of /œ/. In my neighbours dialect however /ɛ/ becomes rounded to varying degree when reduced which means that we have a minimal set consisting of something like:
<dyr> /dyˀr/ (animal)
<dør> /døˀr/ (die(s))
<der> /dœ̜ˀr/ (there) (/dɛˀr/)
<dør> /dɶˀr/ (door)

Edit: DISCLAIMER: This is the way I personally analyze it. This is a relatively heavily discussed subject though.

_________________
Languages i speak fluently: Dansk, English
Languages i am studying: Deutsch, Español


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:37 am 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:09 pm
Posts: 87
Location: Merseyside, England, UK
From https://www.uni-jena.de/unijenamedia/Downloads/faculties/phil/kaukasiologie/Svan%5Bslightlyrevised%5D.pdf, emphasis in original:

Quote:
1.4.3. Metathesis. Another feature that spreads is labialization, as when a 1st-person subject
marker appears directly before the root. In some instances the metathesized labial feature attaches to
the root-initial consonant, in other cases the vowel is rounded: e.g. UBal {xw-re:ka} => rwe:ka,
rœ:ka; cp. Lashx lo:kwar ‘I said’; in the Laxamulan variety of Lower Bal, the /w/ migrates all the
way to the second consonant of the root: {xw-rekar} fi rekwar ‘I said’. The direction of spread
also varies: {a-xw-t’´x} => UBal/LBal/Lshx ot’´əx, Lntx at’ux ‘I returned it’.

_________________
Blog: http://thehousecarpenter.wordpress.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 9:28 am 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
https://www.academia.edu/214115/Adjaria ... n_Armenian

word-initial voiced consonants front following back vowels in some Armenian dialects

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:35 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
The vowel system of Zizhiluo Nusu:

Code:
ɿ                     ɿ̃
i y ɯ u    i̠     u̠    ĩ     ũ                 ũ˞
e ɵ   o    e̠   o̠      ẽ ɵ̃   õ           ẽ˞     
ɛ   ə ɔ    ɛ̠   ə̠ ɔ̠    ɛ̃   ə̃ ɔ̃    ə˞ ɔ˞     ə̃˞
    ɑ          ɑ̠          ɑ̃      ɑ˞        ɑ̃˞     ɑ̠˞ ɑ̠̃˞

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 355 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group