Re: Odd natlang features thread
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:50 am
They probably don't need any consonants, having such a vowel inventory?
Devoiced plosives come from earlier voiced plosives: they're pronounced as unvoiced but impart breathy voice and low tone on the following vowel.Syllables beginning with a voiceless or aspirated plosive, affricate or sibilant, a voiceless liquid or /h/ are pronounced in the high tone ... whereas syllables with a voiced or devoiced plosive, affricate or sibilant initial or initial /r/ are in the low tone. Syllables beginning with a vowel, a nasal or voiced liquid other than /r/ can be either high or low tone.
So does Northern Tairora.Nortaneous wrote:Ukue (f v h), Cacua (ʍ h), several Polynesian languages and Sentani (f h), and Koiari (f ð h) have fricatives but no sibilants.
gufferdk wrote:Well not 64 phonemes due to reduction and rules for the distribution of stød based on vowel length, following consonants, placement of syllabic stress, ... Also stød can be interpreted as a prosodic feature rather than a property of the vowels which leaves one with "only" ~32 vowel phonemes.Birdlang wrote:So more like 64 vowels. And Danish is the only language to have a low front rounded vowel.
With regars to /ɶ/ danish is the only language I know has one and when looking at the WALS page for front rounded vowels it seems plausible that it is very rare or even restricted to danish but do you have any source for that. If yes, then i would really like to see it.
Bit old, but earlier in the thread (a year earlier, actually), you postedNortaneous wrote:Kalaallisut is the only language with a uvular nasal.
(There are four languages with one in PHOIBLE, but the 'uvular nasal' in Japanese [and Burmese, which isn't listed] is a convention of notation, the Kusunda uvular nasal is probably a /ŋʕ/ cluster, and the fourth is Kinyarwanda, which doesn't have one.)
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Do you know if the Bai one is correct or not? (It may have been a new discovery)Nortaneous wrote:Luobenzhuo Bai apparently has a contrastive uvular nasal, which can also occur as the syllable nucleus.
Isn't something similar true of Tibetan as well?Nortaneous wrote:Dzongkha:
Syllables beginning with a voiceless or aspirated plosive, affricate or sibilant, a voiceless liquid or /h/ are pronounced in the high tone ... whereas syllables with a voiced or devoiced plosive, affricate or sibilant initial or initial /r/ are in the low tone. Syllables beginning with a vowel, a nasal or voiced liquid other than /r/ can be either high or low tone.
I thought voiced initial > low tone was a pretty well-established phonological process cross-linguistically at this point.Nortaneous wrote:Dzongkha:
Devoiced plosives come from earlier voiced plosives: they're pronounced as unvoiced but impart breathy voice and low tone on the following vowel.Syllables beginning with a voiceless or aspirated plosive, affricate or sibilant, a voiceless liquid or /h/ are pronounced in the high tone ... whereas syllables with a voiced or devoiced plosive, affricate or sibilant initial or initial /r/ are in the low tone. Syllables beginning with a vowel, a nasal or voiced liquid other than /r/ can be either high or low tone.
The paper is here, and anyone who can read Tibetan script can probably figure out the diachronics.
Were they perhaps diphthongs at some point?(Also, the umlauted vowels are inherently long in Dzongkha
That's pretty cool. Reminds me of Hmong's "bilabial lateral" series. I also remember some Bantu langugage had /pʃ bʒ/ onsets with few or no clusters permitted, although I forget which.and there are labial-palatal affricates /pcʰ pc bɟ bɟ°/. ° is the convention for devoiced plosives, but they could just as well be written /pcɦ/.)
Sotho. Actually seems pretty common for palatalized labials to end up as labial+palatal clusters of some kind, or even just plain coronals. Some Polish dialects have /pj bj mj/ [pɕ bʑ mɲ], there's Proto-Greek /pj pʰj mj/ > modern /pt pt in/, there's cases like Latin /rabie:s/ to French /raʒ/ and Romansch /ravʒa~rabʒa/, and there's Standard Thai /pla: pla:w/ versus Nung /pja: pja:w/ versus Bouyei /tɕa: tɕu:/ (vowels might be off, old transcription).Chengjiang wrote:That's pretty cool. Reminds me of Hmong's "bilabial lateral" series. I also remember some Bantu langugage had /pʃ bʒ/ onsets with few or no clusters permitted, although I forget which.and there are labial-palatal affricates /pcʰ pc bɟ bɟ°/. ° is the convention for devoiced plosives, but they could just as well be written /pcɦ/.)
Yes, indeed. I'm also quite fond of Russian's [mlʲ plʲ blʲ].vokzhen wrote:Sotho. Actually seems pretty common for palatalized labials to end up as labial+palatal clusters of some kind, or even just plain coronals. Some Polish dialects have /pj bj mj/ [pɕ bʑ mɲ], there's Proto-Greek /pj pʰj mj/ > modern /pt pt in/, there's cases like Latin /rabie:s/ to French /raʒ/ and Romansch /ravʒa~rabʒa/, and there's Standard Thai /pla: pla:w/ versus Nung /pja: pja:w/ versus Bouyei /tɕa: tɕu:/ (vowels might be off, old transcription).Chengjiang wrote:That's pretty cool. Reminds me of Hmong's "bilabial lateral" series. I also remember some Bantu langugage had /pʃ bʒ/ onsets with few or no clusters permitted, although I forget which.and there are labial-palatal affricates /pcʰ pc bɟ bɟ°/. ° is the convention for devoiced plosives, but they could just as well be written /pcɦ/.)
So it seems. The argument to analyse these as distinct phonemes is also simply distributional. I haven't encountered any reason to think that these would be released differently from clusters.vokzhen wrote:Sotho. Actually seems pretty common for palatalized labials to end up as labial+palatal clusters of some kind, or even just plain coronals. Some Polish dialects have /pj bj mj/ [pɕ bʑ mɲ], there's Proto-Greek /pj pʰj mj/ > modern /pt pt in/, there's cases like Latin /rabie:s/ to French /raʒ/ and Romansch /ravʒa~rabʒa/, and there's Standard Thai /pla: pla:w/ versus Nung /pja: pja:w/ versus Bouyei /tɕa: tɕu:/ (vowels might be off, old transcription).Chengjiang wrote:That's pretty cool. Reminds me of Hmong's "bilabial lateral" series. I also remember some Bantu langugage had /pʃ bʒ/ onsets with few or no clusters permitted, although I forget which.and there are labial-palatal affricates /pcʰ pc bɟ bɟ°/. ° is the convention for devoiced plosives, but they could just as well be written /pcɦ/.)
The regular Tibetic path is the loss of syllable final dentals. So in any case, the originals were bimoraic.Chengjiang wrote:Were they perhaps diphthongs at some point?
Didn't /b d g/ 0 / V_V in Western Romance? So the source of /ʒ/ is less mysterious, the change was more like rabie:s raje raʒe raʒ.vokzhen wrote:there's cases like Latin /rabie:s/ to French /raʒ/
The paper also points out <sapiat> yielding French <sâche> and Romansch <sapcha> where I believe we'd expect sapiat > sabia > sa(v)ge if there wasn't odd palatalization of labials going on. Going to wiktionary it even says on the page for sache that Latin pj > French ch regularly, giving sepia > seiche, appropiāre > approcher, Frankish happja > hache.Αυτοβοτα wrote:Didn't /b d g/ 0 / V_V in Western Romance? So the source of /ʒ/ is less mysterious, the change was more like rabie:s raje raʒe raʒ.vokzhen wrote:there's cases like Latin /rabie:s/ to French /raʒ/
Not particularly rare to contrast /ɨ ə/, and it's really common in SEA and the eastern Himalayan area, so that's not really as much of an odd natlang feature so much as a place you wouldn't particularly expect it (but then, you probably wouldn't expect it in Great Britain [Northern Welsh] or in a Romance Language [Romanian] either).Vijay wrote:It also apparently has a phonemic contrast between /ɨ/, /ɨː/, /ə/, and /əː/, in addition to the /a aː i iː u uː e eː o oː/ vowels that are typical of e.g. Dravidian languages.