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zompist bboard • View topic - Bizarre Sound Changes

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:22 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:58 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:41 pm 
Smeric
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Well...I don't know how much of this you already know; for all I know, you may know it all already, but in Malayalam - like, in the orthography - we have റ, which is [ra]. Then when you double it (basically), you get റ്റ, which is [tta]. (Or maybe just [ta]. I'm not sure it's always geminate). Also, we have ന്റെ (i.e. ൻ [n] + റെ [re]), which occurs on a lot of possessives (I'll go into more detail on that if you want me to lol :P).

In Centhamil (so "literary Tamil," which is misleading at least in a modern context since these days, literature is written in regional dialects, too), they have ற [ra], ற்ற which AFAIK is pronounced [tra], and ன்ற [ndra]. Also AFAIK Centhamil [r] corresponds to Malayalam [r], Centhamil [tr] corresponds to Malayalam [tt] (or whatever), and Centhamil [ndr] corresponds to Malayalam [n̪n̪].

Kannada seems to have [n̪d̪] corresponding to Malayalam [n̪n̪] and Chenthamil [ndr] (and [nn] in dialectal Tamil - is that in all dialects of Tamil? I'm pretty sure Madurai Tamil has it).

And yes, I also assume /nn/ in dialectal Tamil is independent from Malayalam. But I'd still think it evolved from an earlier [n̪n̪], which is no longer attested in Tamil, or am I completely wrong about that?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:49 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:41 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:05 am 
Avisaru
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/u(:) o(:) a(:)/ > /ʉ(:) ɵ(:) ɛ(:)/ in all open syllables in Khaling ().


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:49 am 
Smeric
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Machvano Vlax Romani is a variety of (Vlax) Romani formerly spoken in but now spoken almost exclusively in the Americas (and especially in Central and South America) IIRC. In Machvano Vlax, apparently, this sound change took place (and the pronunciation of these sounds is a shibboleth of Machvano Vlax; I'm not aware of any other variety of Romani in which this particular sound change took place):

/t͡ʃʰ d͡ʒ/ > [ʈr ɖr]

I wonder how often something like that happens.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:20 pm 
Smeric
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Straits Salish has a split in the labial consonants, which occurs without any conditioning as far as anyone can tell:

p pʼ m > p~tʃ pʼ~tʃʼ m~ŋ


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:27 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:21 pm 
Smeric
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Because of influence from (Parisian?) French? But then I wonder what language would have influenced this development in this particular variety of Romani.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:50 am 
Smeric
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Because of influence from French, yes. I think the French dialects were still important enough in the early 19th century to continue their earlier influence though, but to lesser extent.

I can't find evidence for a palatalisation of /tr/ in the Balkans yet, but I have found palatalisation of clusters ending in /l/ in Gheg Albanian and Romanian.


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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:34 pm 
Smeric
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There are some sound changes in Indo-Aryan languages that strike me as pretty weird, too, like spontaneous nasalization (e.g. Old Indo-Aryan ákṣi > Pali/Prakrit akkhi/acchi > Hindi ã̄kh). How often do words in various languages come to have nasalization on their vowels that apparently came out of nowhere?


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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 9:54 pm 
Smeric
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Without more examples I can't be sure of whether this comment is valuable but spontaneous nasalization of low vowels is a kind of common process.


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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 10:02 pm 
Smeric
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Really? That's neat! Can you give me an example? I'm just curious. :)

I guess it doesn't only happen to low vowels in Indo-Aryan since it can also happen to [u] (for example, "mung" (as in "mung beans") is a loanword from Hindi mū̃g, but that's descended from Prakrit mugga), but that's valuable enough of an answer as far as I'm concerned anyway. :D


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 5:36 am 
Smeric
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I think a similar process occurred in French, rien coming from res, where polysyllabic words are lacking the nasal.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 5:44 am 
Smeric
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Last edited by hwhatting on Tue May 03, 2016 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 2:14 am 
Avisaru
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Isn't the low vowel obligatorily nasalized in Iau?

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 9:45 am 
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One of the defining features of Southern New England Algonquian is the nasalization of proto-Algonquian *ā, so Massachusett squnck 'skunk' (probably [skɐ̃k] or thereabouts) from PA *šekākwa.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:51 pm 
Smeric
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In Sani, palatalized labial plosives became alveolar lateral affricates:

*bya2 > dɮa(ma) 'bee'
*byam1 > tɬɪ 'fly'

(from the Handbook of PTB)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:40 pm 
Avisaru
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Some Levantine Arabic varieties: short *i and *u are neutralised to schwa in stressed syllables but remain separate in unstressed syllables (for examples see Wikipedia EDIT: and also ).

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Last edited by Frislander on Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:04 pm 
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According to Fortescue's 2011 Comparative Chukotko-Kamchatkan Dictionary, PCK *lː > Chukchi tl.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:23 pm 
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I don't think that change is particularly odd. Didn't that also happen in Icelandic and Faroese?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:52 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:01 am 
Avisaru
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It's /tɬ/, not /tl/, unless /tl/ was an intermediary for another sound. Chukchi doesn't have any laterals but /ɬ/. In fact the Chukchi grammar in the Grammar Pile gives the rule instead as ɬ > t / _ɬ.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:04 am 
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