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zompist bboard • View topic - Bizarre Sound Changes

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:38 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:35 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 1:32 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:04 pm 
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I doubt there are any actual reversals, but there are a few instances of *X *Y being reflected as A B in one lang and B A in another. There are those tone languages somewhere in North America where the same thing developed into high tone in some descendants and low tone in others, and there's also English and... what was it, Dutch? where one language sometimes has /e/ where the other has /o/ and vice versa.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:28 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:03 pm 
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Western and Eastern Armenian often have swapped voicing in stop consonants: e.g. vardapet vs vartabed. This is a result of changes related to aspiration.

It seems that the change was something like this, where Eastern is the proto-language (because it didnt change) and Western the daughter:

/b d dʒ g/ > /bʰ dʰ dʒʰ gʰ/
/p t tš k/ > /b d dʒ g/ (thus temporarily re-creating a PIE-like situation)
/bʰ dʰ dʒʰ gʰ/ > /pʰ tʰ tšʰ kʰ/

However, note that Western Armenian had /pʰ tʰ tšʰ kʰ/ all along as separate consonants, and these did not change during the chain shift. It looks like a swap because aspiration is not usually represented in Romanization. Also the idea of using voiced aspirates is just my hypothesis, because I dont see any other way it could work. Im not sure if there is any firm knowledge of how the shift happened, or even when it happened.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 4:40 am 
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Didn't Proto-Germanic undergo an a-o switcharound? But it wasn't a perfect reversal because the lengths didn't match, or something?


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 6:42 am 
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 7:29 am 
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 1:47 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 2:41 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:25 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:20 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 1:22 pm 
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OH OH OH! One example of almost-reversal in a language is Tuscarora, where Proto-Northern-Iroquoian [PNI] *t → (ʔ)n /__V (apparently by way of */ʔt/), and PNI *n → t (although it remained a nasal before nasal vowels and in a few other environments). So e.g. PNI *oná:takõ "town" > utá:ʔnakə̃; PNI *tékni:h "two" > nɛ́:kti:. If it weren't for the handful of environments where the changes didn't happen, all it would take is the loss of /ʔ/ before /n/ to make this a complete reversal.

[Also, apparently Mandan /ʃ/ and /s/ correspond to /s/ and /ʃ/ respectively in the other Siouan languages.]


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 6:12 pm 
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You could also consider PIE dentals in (High) German:
*t > θ > d
*dʰ > d > t
This'd be a clean reversal if you subscribe to Glottalic Theory or some variant thereof.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 11:53 pm 
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The ts > T sound change of Spanish also happened in Saanich, presumably (since ts_> gives tT_>) through an intermediate stage of tT.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:12 am 
Smeric
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I think it's pretty much agreed upon that it went ts > s_d > T in Spanish though...

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:20 am 
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And who disagreed with that?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:30 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:42 am 
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Yeah, I just remembered a discussion from ages ago about how that SC in Spanish was supposedly really weird, is all.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:08 am 
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A bunch of Athabaskan languages changed dentals/alveolars to interdentals, too (cf. Chipewyan in my ).


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:32 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:33 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:21 am 
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Faroese has a pair of sound changes that are very roughly:
Ø > ggj / V[+long][+front]_#
Ø > gv / V[+long][-front]_#

Examples: oy > oyggj, trú > trúgv

<ggj> is pronounced [dʒː].


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