Vowel Systems

The best topics from Languages & Linguistics, kept on a permanent basis.
User avatar
Drydic
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:23 pm
Location: I am a prisoner in my own mind.
Contact:

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by Drydic »

Try sounding more smug.
Image Image
Common Zein Scratchpad & other Stuffs! OMG AN ACTUAL CONPOST WTFBBQ

Formerly known as Drydic.

User avatar
ObsequiousNewt
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:05 pm
Location: /ˈaɪ̯əwʌ/

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by ObsequiousNewt »

Has anyone created or considered creating an equivalent of this thread for consonant systems?


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.

User avatar
clawgrip
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1723
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:21 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by clawgrip »

Ideally something like that would be nice, but I wonder how you could organize something like that, since consonants are much more complex.

User avatar
Nortaneous
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 4544
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Location: the Imperial Corridor

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by Nortaneous »

Maybe for plosive systems?
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

User avatar
Tropylium
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 512
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:13 pm
Location: Halfway to Hyperborea

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by Tropylium »

Even that's gonna be difficult. Vowels fit into basically 2-3 dimensions. Consonants are something like… well there's also a basic 3d grid of POA × MOA × phonation, but all of those already have more divisions than the main contrasts in vowel systems (backness × height × roundedness), and then you get modifiers like "nasal" "sibilant" "lateral" all over the place.

Here's a very limited survey I did a while ago, which gets quite complex already:
http://www.frathwiki.com/Ejective/Inventories
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]

User avatar
Whimemsz
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 690
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 4:56 pm
Location: Gimaamaa onibaaganing

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by Whimemsz »

Better late than never:
Hallow XIII wrote:Other things include Ojibwe with five long but only three short vowels,
It's actually four long vowels. The vowel system is long /i: e: o: a:/, short /i o a/. Also shared with some dialects of Cree. (Apparently the Ojibwe spoken in parts of Wisconsin has[/had] short /e/, though? I don't know the details.)

Bristel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Miracle, Inc. Headquarters
Contact:

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by Bristel »

My conlang "Novemberlang" has just one phonemic vowel, /ə/. But it has a few allophonic vowels (maybe in a later stage more). It has /u/ after /k w/, /i/ after /j/ and /a/ after /ʁ/. Thought about doing /o/ after /p/ or something, but I didn't want to go overboard with allophonic vowels.
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró

User avatar
Hallow XIII
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 846
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Location: Under Heaven

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by Hallow XIII »

Whimemsz wrote:Better late than never:
Hallow XIII wrote:Other things include Ojibwe with five long but only three short vowels,
It's actually four long vowels. The vowel system is long /i: e: o: a:/, short /i o a/. Also shared with some dialects of Cree. (Apparently the Ojibwe spoken in parts of Wisconsin has[/had] short /e/, though? I don't know the details.)
I will be brutally honest: I was too lazy to look up how many long vowels Ojibwe has (I only knew it was more than three). Damn those Amerindian u-less systems!
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
R.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice

User avatar
finlay
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3600
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by finlay »

Bristel wrote:allophonic vowels.../u/... /i/.../a/.../o/...allophonic vowels.
isn't this lesson 1?

User avatar
Particles the Greek
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:48 am
Location: Between clauses

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by Particles the Greek »

ObsequiousNewt wrote:Has anyone created or considered creating an equivalent of this thread for consonant systems?
Inspired by this thread, rather than trying to establish an exhaustive typology, perhaps it might be better to collect some representative systems of various sizes (e.g. less than 10 consonants, 10-20, 20-30, and so on)?
Non fidendus est crocodilus quis posteriorem dentem acerbum conquetur.

Bristel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Miracle, Inc. Headquarters
Contact:

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by Bristel »

finlay wrote:
Bristel wrote:allophonic vowels.../u/... /i/.../a/.../o/...allophonic vowels.
isn't this lesson 1?
I dunno, is it? How about explaining that I accidentally used phonetic slashes instead of phonemic brackets? ;)
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró

User avatar
finlay
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3600
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by finlay »

you've been posting here for 4 years though, you must have been taught this four years ago.

User avatar
Nortaneous
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 4544
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Location: the Imperial Corridor

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by Nortaneous »

Another interesting vowel system is the one on Nuosu / Liangshan Yi, which has a six-vowel system /a ɛ ɔ o i ɯ/ (though /ɛ o/ sound to me like [æ u]) plus four fricated vowels, written <u ur y yr> -- but it's best analyzed as having a tense/lax split, with the tense vowels /ɛ a ɔ v̠̩ z̠̩/ and the corresponding lax vowels /i ɯ o v̩ z̩/.

I'm not sure what's going on with the articulation of the fricated tense vowels; I can't pronounce anything that sounds at all like them. Source says "tension is formed on the aryepiglottal folds by pulling them close to one another in a way that causes much turbulence in the larynx". You can hear them here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m43KpZ_90d4

There's also something odd going on with the vowel harmony, where in certain cases (in the first syllable of compound words where the second syllable is a tense non-back vowel and does not have low tone, I think), /ɯ/ doesn't lower to [a], but only to [ɯ̠].

Wikipedia is wrong about the vowel system -- <u> isn't /u/; it's a fricative. There are no characters in the Yi script for u ur y yr with no onset (and you'll notice in the video that the guy doesn't say u ur y yr, but vu vur ssy ssyr -- <ss> is /z/), but there are for all the non-fricated vowels. IOW there's no contrast between /v̩ vv̩/, or between /z̩ zz̩/, and the same applies to the tense vowels.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

User avatar
Pogostick Man
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 894
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:21 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by Pogostick Man »

dhok wrote:Common among conlangers, I think, is T6R:

T6R

Code: Select all

i y   u
 e    o
    a
I don't know of any languages where this appears in nature
Aikanã, ignoring the nasality distinction.
(Avatar via Happy Wheels Wiki)
Index Diachronica PDF v.10.2
Conworld megathread

AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO

Valdeut
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:16 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by Valdeut »

Pogostick Man wrote:
dhok wrote:Common among conlangers, I think, is T6R:

T6R

Code: Select all

i y   u
 e    o
    a
I don't know of any languages where this appears in nature
Aikanã, ignoring the nasality distinction.
Also, Medieval Greek until the 10th century. No nasal vowels, length distinction or diphthongs, just 6 monophthongs: /i y u e o a/. There were probably some varieties of Koine Greek that already had that system as well.

Also, the Classical Latin of educated Romans probably had that 6-vowel system (with a length distinction), with /y/ and /yː/ only in Greek loans. I'm not sure how common it was to actually use /y/ and /yː/ (rather than merging them with /i/ and /iː/) in Latin speech. But I would guess the reason the system is common among conlangers is that it is basically the vowel system of the Latin alphabet (based on the Latin pronunciation).

Seirios
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:26 am
Location: Shenzhen, Guangdong, China

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by Seirios »

^ Actually when Greek had lost its length distinction and merged historical long e into i (i.e.η>ι) I think the system was already established. That is, since a late period of Koine Greek probably. Slightly before that there were two e's with distinction in height, and a bit more earlier the length distinction would still be yet to be lost, with a system like a a: e e: E: i i: u: o o: y y: where E: was higher and e: was lower.
Last edited by Seirios on Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Always an adventurer, I guess.
-
Tone: Chao's notation.
Apical vowels: [ɿ]≈[z̞̩], [ʅ]≈[ɻ̞̩], [ʮ]≈[z̞̩ʷ], [ʯ]≈[ɻ̞̩ʷ].
Vowels: [ᴇ]=Mid front unrounded, [ᴀ]=Open central unrounded, [ⱺ]=Mid back rounded, [ⱻ]=Mid back unrounded.

TaylorS
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 557
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:44 pm
Location: Moorhead, MN, USA

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by TaylorS »

Nortaneous wrote:beep beep bump have some vanuatu

Code: Select all

7: Volow, Mwotlap, Vera'a, Nume (Olrat has this system + length distinction in every vowel)
i u
ɪ ʊ 
ɛ ɔ
 a

7+1: Koro
i u
ɪ ʊ 
ɛ ɔ
 a
ɛa

8: Dorig
i u
ɪ ʊ 
ɛ ɔ
 a
 a:

8: Lakon: (+ length distinction in every vowel)
i u
ɪ ʊ 
ɛ ɔ
æ a

8: Hiw
i   ʉ 
e ə ɵ o
      ɔ
   a

8: Lehali
i u
e o
ɛ ɔ 
æ a

8+1: Lehalurup
i   u
e   o
ɛ œ ɔ 
a
ie

8+5: Lo-Toga
i   ʉ 
e ə   o
ɛ     ɔ
   a 
ie iɛ ia oə oɔ

9+3: Mwerlap
i ʉ
ɪ ɵ ʊ
ɛ ɞ ɔ
a      
ɛa ɔɞ ʊɵ

10: Lemerig
i     u 
ɪ ø   ʊ
ɛ œ   ɔ
    a ɒ
These all came from a protolang inventory of /a e i o u/ and here's how.
Well, if PIE can give rise to the insanity that is Germanic vowels, Proto-Oceanic can easily make that!

User avatar
R.Rusanov
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 393
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:59 pm
Location: Novo-je Orĭlovo

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by R.Rusanov »

What's so cray cray about German vowels?
Slava, čĭstŭ, hrabrostĭ!

sirdanilot
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 734
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by sirdanilot »

R.Rusanov wrote:What's so cray cray about German vowels?
There's a hella lot of them. Note that he said GermanIC, this applies to all germanic languages.
The insane amount of vowel quality distinctions in English as well as other germanic languages may seem completely ordinary to a native speaker of these languages, but it is in fact a typologically fairly uncommon feature. In fact the record for most phonemically distinctive vowel qualities is probably a Germanic language/dialect, though it remains to be seen which one exactly. I have read that it would be one dialect of Bavaria, but I have also heard a Limburgish (southern holland) variety as having the most vowels, namely the dialect of Weert.
The presence of front-rounded vowels is also fairly uncommon though by no means balls-to-the-walls-bat-shit-crazy.

Of course other languages in the world might have more vowels, but they would not be distinctive by vowel quality alone but by other features, such as nasalization, different phonation types, gemination etc. Of course all is a matter of analysis; for example, you can see the gazillion different vowels in Dutch as being divided between 'short' (associated with lax/more central) and 'long' (associated between 'tense' or less central) members of pairs, such as o - ɔ y - ʏ i - ɪ a - ɑ etc. However, if you then look at it phonetically vowels that are traditionally considered 'long' (due to historical reasons; for example /i/) aren't phonetically longer than their 'short' counterparts, so we are truly dealing with only a quality distinction here.

The 'advanced tongue root' coined for many African languages is also something I would consider different vowel qualities, because in essence it's hardly different from lax vs. tense vowels in Germanic languages.

Birdlang
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 427
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:34 am
Location: Virginia

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by Birdlang »

My conlang Swampsparrownese has 15 vowels, and it is written in Cyrillic.it has /i e æ/ /u ɯ o ɤ ɑ ɒ/ /ɨ ʉ ɘ ɵ a ɶ/. Know any similar vowel sets?
Hello there. Chirp chirp chirp.

User avatar
ivazaéun
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by ivazaéun »

/ɶ/ is not attested in any natlang, let alone as a language's only front rounded vowel.

Porphyrogenitos
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:13 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

While this thread is active again - are there any languages with just a plain /a i u/ vowel system, but without any length contrast?

zompist
Boardlord
Boardlord
Posts: 3368
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Location: In the den
Contact:

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by zompist »

Porphyrogenitos wrote:While this thread is active again - are there any languages with just a plain /a i u/ vowel system, but without any length contrast?
Sure— Quechua, Cree, Moroccan Arabic, Aleut...

Porphyrogenitos
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:13 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

zompist wrote:
Porphyrogenitos wrote:While this thread is active again - are there any languages with just a plain /a i u/ vowel system, but without any length contrast?
Sure— Quechua, Cree, Moroccan Arabic, Aleut...
Oh okay. For some reason I thought Quechua had a length contrast. The only other examples of /a i u/ systems I could think of offhand were Classical Arabic and Warlpiri, which both have length contrasts. Thanks!

vokzhen
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 352
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:43 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Vowel Systems

Post by vokzhen »

Birdlang wrote:My conlang Swampsparrownese has 15 vowels, and it is written in Cyrillic.it has /i e æ/ /u ɯ o ɤ ɑ ɒ/ /ɨ ʉ ɘ ɵ a ɶ/. Know any similar vowel sets?
It's extremely crowded. You've got /i ɨ ʉ ɯ u/. Almost no language contrasts any of /ɨ ʉ ɯ/, the Southern Sami example with two of them /i y ɨ ʉ u/ is extremely odd. And afaik any set of high vowels with 4 members includes /y/. /ɨ ɯ/ are often just two ways of writing the same sound, as there's an unrounded vowel between back and central so the choice of which to use comes down to convention (iirc, big emphasis on iirc, Vietnamese /ɯ/ is often more front than Welsh /ɨ/). Similar problems with the mid vowels as the high. Distinguishing /ɑ ɒ/ without length differences is pretty rare, and even rarer is a three-way contrast between /æ a ɑ/. I'm not sure a four-way between /æ a ɑ ɒ/ even exists, and if it did there'd almost certainly other things going on (e.g. /æ/ is really [ɛ] and /ɑ/ is [ɑ:]). I'm not sure an open central rounded vowel is even attested, let alone as a phoneme, which is presumably what you meant by /ɶ/.
Last edited by vokzhen on Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply