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zompist bboard • View topic - A guide to small consonant inventories

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:58 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:51 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:49 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:01 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:52 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:24 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:56 pm 
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Three differences are less distant than 1?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:03 am 
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Sure, if you can't read.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:57 pm 
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I fail to see why three distinctions make the same phonology, differing allophonically, while one distinction makes two different and more distant phonologies; I gather this makes me illiterate. Sorry :(

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:54 pm 
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is r~l not also a phonetic detail

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:18 am 
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Yeah, that's basically my question.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:27 pm 
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The data includes several examples of an /r/ ≠ /l/ contrast, versus none of /w/ versus /β/. Hence [±lateral] is a significant feature in the analysis, while [±high] is a redundant one (for [+labial] segments, anyway). Basically the same reason as why we're tracking velar vs. coronal, but not dental vs. alveolar.

And sure there are cases of [r] = [l] too, but this kind of equality is, alas, not transitive. It would be about equally possible to argue for equivalences between /l/ and /d/, or /d/ and /n/, but clearly still /l/ ≠ /n/ etc. And calling this measure a "distance" is really not going to work without the triangle inequality.

The exact weighing was an impressionistic thing though; I suppose e.g. having [ʃ] as a variant of /s/ could perhaps be more reasonably taken for something like 0.5 instead, since there indeed are cases of /s/ ≠ /ʃ/.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:03 pm 
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and sure it would be handy if this data could be simply treated as an (approximately 25-dimensional) set of independent variables, but no — the distance of "+/s/ -/ʃ/" from "-/s/ +/ʃ/" should clearly be considered smaller than a distance like that of "+/n/ -/ʔ/" from "-/n/ +/ʔ/". And the fact that we can still "walk" thru nearby phonemes to almost anywhere else (e.g. /n/ is close to /d/ is close to /t/ is close to /k/ is close to /ʔ/) means that it's also not even possible to consider e.g. the sibilant dimensions as a single isolated "bundle".

This is also why I don't plan on calculating differences between widely different phonologies, just finding the closest couple neighbors for everything.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:25 pm 
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updated chart

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:27 pm 
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Updated again. Does anyone know what's going on with Mekeo? Blust doesn't. I've listed all the inventories he gives in his book on Austronesian (including the one for general Mekeo, which differs from the one I already had) but it could probably be narrowed down.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:15 pm 
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. Really now, the fuck is this supposed to be?.

The voiceless plosive: /k/
The voiced plosives: /b d/
The implosive: /ɗ/
The affricates: /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/
The fricatives: /θ ʃ h/
The lateral: /l/
The tap: /ɾ/
The glide: /w/

Can't tell if serious...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:51 am 
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And here we have its sister lang, , also with 12: /p t c k ʔ m n ɲ ŋ v r z /.

I repeat: /z/ without /s/! Apinayé's only fricatives are voiced!

Strange things happen in the Amazon...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:04 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:09 am 
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Perhaps, due to an abundance of humor, they talk weird in front of the intrepid field linguist. :D


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:14 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:58 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:13 pm 
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Last edited by cromulant on Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:43 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:51 pm 
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As for Karajá, Dixon and Aikenvald's The Amazon Languages (p, 176) has the same consonant inventory as shown on Wiki. They cite fortune '73.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:14 am 
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