Tidbits from beyond IE

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Lleu
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Post by Lleu »

hwhatting wrote:
Arunas wrote:
Anyway, I've got some info on Nepālī. I don't think I can type in Devanagārī, so bear with me.


Nice tidbits, but they're not exactly "from beyond IE":

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=nep

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I know that Nepālī as a language isn't, but the tidbits are definitely beyond the scope of what most people think of as "IE".
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Post by hwhatting »

Arunas wrote:I know that Nepālī as a language isn't, but the tidbits are definitely beyond the scope of what most people think of as "IE".


Maybe we should move this to a thread "Fun features of IE languages"?
There is certainly a lot more like this out there - stuff most people would be surprised to find in IE languages, especially people who just have a cursory knowledge of a few European IE languags like English or Spanish (e.g., the split ergative system of some Iranian languages I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, the incipient tone systems of Norwegian or Serbo-Croatian, etc.).
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Re: IE

Post by rotting bones »

[quote="Ran"]No IE language, afaik, has any trace of tones.[/quote]
The search isn't turning up anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Isn't Punjabi a tonal language? I'm pretty sure it has three phonemically distinguished tones: high, mid and low.

PS. Okay, technical problem #1.

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Re: IE

Post by jmcd »

[quote="rotting ham"][quote="Ran"]No IE language, afaik, has any trace of tones.[/quote]
The search isn't turning up anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Isn't Punjabi a tonal language? I'm pretty sure it has three phonemically distinguished tones: high, mid and low.

PS. Okay, technical problem #1.[/quote]Yeah I'm sure there's tone there too. And it says so in the book 'The Indo-Aryan Languages' by Colin P. Masica, which is in front of me here. In fact, it says (page 118): Contrastive tone is reported from several NIA languages and dialects, among them Chittagong and Dacca Bengali, Shina, Khowar, Gawarbati, Bashkarik, "Lahnda", Rajasthani, Dogri, several West Pahari dialects (Kochi, Shodochi, Bishshau, Rudhari, Khashali), and possibly Wotapuri, but undoubtedly the classic case of tone in NIA is Punjabi. There are two distinctive tones in Punjabi contrasting with the neutral tone: the High (or High-Falling /`/ and the Low (or Low-Rising) /´/. (Some would say there are three tones, including the neutral or "Mid" tone as one of them.)

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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by rotting bones »

Thanks, and apologies for resurrecting a thread four years after it expired for something regulars already know by now, I'm sure. (only for the L&L Museum, and only because the word Punjabi, Oikoumene's Čia-Ša, doesn't occur once in the whole forum according to the search function) This is how the tones are represented orthographically: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurmukh%C4%AB_script

PS. Wait a minute, the Čia-Ša languages aren't tonal? I had an Eddyimpression that they were. Huh, just isolating.

P2S. I can't believe there isn't a single tonal Eastern language, the closest being Cuezi, which is only pitch-accented. Oh well, at least Lufaša is largely monosyllabic. That's one divergence Oikoumene hasn't produced to my knowledge. It looked tonal to me because of all these accents over the vowels like bák, chàn, nük, etc, but there's no reference to tones anywhere.
Last edited by rotting bones on Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by Whimemsz »

Man what is up with none of the BBCode working in this forum? It's pissing me off. >:|

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Re: IE

Post by TomHChappell »

rotting ham wrote:
Ran wrote:No IE language, afaik, has any trace of tones.

The search isn't turning up anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Isn't Punjabi a tonal language?
Wasn't Classical Greek supposed to have been tonal?

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Re: IE

Post by jmcd »

TomHChappell wrote:
rotting ham wrote:
Ran wrote:No IE language, afaik, has any trace of tones.

The search isn't turning up anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Isn't Punjabi a tonal language?
Wasn't Classical Greek supposed to have been tonal?
IIRC it's not quite, actually pitch accent. Says so here for example.

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Re: IE

Post by TaylorS »

jmcd wrote:
TomHChappell wrote:
rotting ham wrote:
Ran wrote:No IE language, afaik, has any trace of tones.

The search isn't turning up anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Isn't Punjabi a tonal language?
Wasn't Classical Greek supposed to have been tonal?
IIRC it's not quite, actually pitch accent. Says so here for example.
Something inheirited from late PIE. Early (Vedic) Sanskrit also had a pitch accent.

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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by schwhatever »

Also some (south?) Slavic languages IIRC.
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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by Soap »

I think what Ran may have been getting at is that none of the IE languages that have tones today inherited them from PIE ,even in a much-changed form. They all went through stages in which they were completely toneless and then re-developed tones in various ways. I don't think everyone agrees with this, though; I remember reading on this board somewhere that there are at least some people who believe that the tones of Latvian and Lithuanian do in fact trace back directly to PIE. Even so, it's nearly certain than Punjabi and the Slavic languages' tones are innovations and not inherited from Sanskrit/Proto-Slavic.
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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by Jashan »

Soap wrote:I think what Ran may have been getting at is that none of the IE languages that have tones today inherited them from PIE ,even in a much-changed form. They all went through stages in which they were completely toneless and then re-developed tones in various ways.


I think that must be the case, because if I remember correctly, Swedish has tones (at least in some dialects), at the Flemish dialect (or sister-language, depending on one's argument) Limburgish, has tones. Both of these are, obviously IE (being Germanic).
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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by Mecislau »

Soap wrote:Even so, it's nearly certain than Punjabi and the Slavic languages' tones are innovations and not inherited from Sanskrit/Proto-Slavic.



Nitpick: Slavic languages' tonal/pitch systems were in fact inherited from Proto-Slavic; however, Proto-Slavic did not inherit its system from PIE.

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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by Pogostick Man »

Apparently, Melpa has a binary counting system.
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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by TomHChappell »

Rorschach wrote:Apparently, Melpa has a binary counting system.

What's their word for "toast"?

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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by hwhatting »

Rorschach wrote:Apparently, Melpa has a binary counting system.

wikipedia wrote:1
tenda
"one"

2
ragl
"two"

3
ragltika
"twone"

4
tembokak
"four"

5
pömp tsi gudl
"one past four"

6
pömp ragl gudl
"two past four"

7
pömp ragltika gudl
"twone past four"

8
engak
"eight"

9
pömp tsi pip
"one past eight"

10
pömp ragl pip
"two past eight"


Interesting that they use different, seemingly unrelated forms for the dyades when they are alone and when they are in composed numbers (4 alone is "tembokak", in composed numbers it's "gudl", 8 alone is "engak", in composed numbers it's "pip").

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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by finlay »

I don't buy it... they haven't given us enough information to determine what happens past 10. Is 8+7 "pömp pömp ragltika gudl pip"? Because I doubt it – that'll get very confusing very quickly.

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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by Herr Dunkel »

finlay wrote:I don't buy it... they haven't given us enough information to determine what happens past 10. Is 8+7 "pömp pömp ragltika gudl pip"? Because I doubt it – that'll get very confusing very quickly.


pömp pömp ragltika gudl pip gudl pip pömp pömp ragltika gudl pip....
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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by brandrinn »

rotting bones wrote:PS. Wait a minute, the Čia-Ša languages aren't tonal? I had an Eddyimpression that they were. Huh, just isolating.

They were. But Zomp did a major overhaul a year or two ago on the Cia Shia languages.
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Re: IE

Post by Aurora Rossa »

jmcd wrote:
TomHChappell wrote:
rotting ham wrote:
Ran wrote:No IE language, afaik, has any trace of tones.

The search isn't turning up anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Isn't Punjabi a tonal language?
Wasn't Classical Greek supposed to have been tonal?
IIRC it's not quite, actually pitch accent. Says so here for example.


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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by jmcd »

Maybe try downloading real player then.

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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by Nortaneous »

jmcd wrote:Maybe try downloading real player then.

No, don't do that. RealPlayer is terrible and evil.

Can VLC play .ram files?
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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by brandrinn »

Nortaneous wrote:
jmcd wrote:Maybe try downloading real player then.

No, don't do that. RealPlayer is terrible and evil.

Can VLC play .ram files?

I'm pretty sure VLC could play the sounds captured by putting ring patterns on ancient pottery.
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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

Post by finlay »

Nortaneous wrote:
jmcd wrote:Maybe try downloading real player then.

No, don't do that. RealPlayer is terrible and evil.

Can VLC play .ram files?

Last time I checked, it was one of the few formats it can't play, for some reason.

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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE

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finlay wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:
jmcd wrote:Maybe try downloading real player then.

No, don't do that. RealPlayer is terrible and evil.

Can VLC play .ram files?

Last time I checked, it was one of the few formats it can't play, for some reason.


That reason being Real won't release the codec.
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