Semantically loaded names for cardinal points.

[peterlin]

In some Daghestani languages names of some cardinal points (directions), north and south in particular, are semantically loaded. North is negatively associated, South has favorable connotations. This is probably 'caused by Islam being brought there from South and northern Daghestanis being last to accept it. The words:


Lezgi:
north- kefer (lit. unbelief)
south- q'ibla (qibleh, the direction towards Mecca)

Rutul:
north- ja'ha'nem (lit. hell)
south- ja'nnet (lit. paradise)

Now, I was wondering if a similar phenomenon occurs elsewhere in the world.

[Echobeats]

American English:

West - capitalist democratic society.
East - weird exotic place.
Middle East - where the terrorists come from
South - full of uneducated hicks who believe in Creationism and vote for Bush

(Disclaimer: Yes, these are stereotypes - that's my point - and no, I don't agree with them.)

Yours, Tim.

[vlad]

American English:

West - capitalist democratic society.
East - weird exotic place.
Middle East - where the terrorists come from
South - full of uneducated hicks who believe in Creationism and vote for Bush

Tim: I think he meant words that are derived from words that literally have those meanings, not just stereotypes associated with them - tho the use of "West" I think is loaded, yeah.

Something Like the way left and right have political meanings - and that "right" also means "correct". I've often wondered what the world would've been like the if the liberals sat on the right side...

[Soap]

We use "south" negatively here. "The deal went south" means it failed. The association I make is that "south" is being used for "down" in all its senses.

[Echobeats]

Rutul:
north- ja'ha'nem (lit. hell)
south- ja'nnet (lit. paradise)

Now, I was wondering if a similar phenomenon occurs elsewhere in the world.

I forgot to point out that these are very similar to the Turkish words for Heaven and Hell: Cennet and Cehennem (where <c> = /dZ/). I wonder what exactly the link obvious is with Gehennah. Is it Hebrew, Aramaic, or what?

Yours, Tim.

[peterlin]

Rutul:
north- ja'ha'nem (lit. hell)
south- ja'nnet (lit. paradise)

Now, I was wondering if a similar phenomenon occurs elsewhere in the world.

I forgot to point out that these are very similar to the Turkish words for Heaven and Hell: Cennet and Cehennem (where <c> = /dZ/). I wonder what exactly the link obvious is with Gehennah. Is it Hebrew, Aramaic, or what?

Both Rutul words (and as a matter of fact both Lezgi words, too) are ultimately from Arabic. No, wait, my dictionary says Ar. dZahannam comes from Hbr. Gehinnom. Hmm, I always thought it was a cognate not a loan.

The remaining three are Arabic alright.

[gach]

The names of the cardinal points (what a term) can be quite interesting. For example the Finnish etel? (south) and pohjoinen (north) resemble the words ete- [> edess?, eteen etc.] (front) and pohja (bottom). They come most propably from the ancient way of building the house or directioning the tent: the front door or the tent's entrance would point to the south and the bottom of the tent would point to north.

Some others are:
~ it? (east) that might have something to do with the verb it?? (to germinate). According to my not so very scientific etymological dictionary in some Uralic langs (it doesn't give any names) the counterwords of it?? still mean "the sun rises".
~ lounas (southwest) that's distant counterwords mean "daylight" or "day" and close ones "midday". In fact its other meaning in Finnish is "lunch".
~ koillinen (northeast) that's originally an adjective derived from koi (morning)
~ kaakko (southeast) that's possibly originally ment the migrating direction of the bird(s) called kaakuri. Nowadays kaakkuri is the name of one spesific bird that's closely related to the loon but it might have ment originally also other similar birds.

[linguoboy]

Both Rutul words (and as a matter of fact both Lezgi words, too) are ultimately from Arabic. No, wait, my dictionary says Ar. dZahannam comes from Hbr. Gehinnom. Hmm, I always thought it was a cognate not a loan.

The Hebrew word is actually a composition, ge:y Hinno:m or "Valley of Hinnom". Located to the west of Jerusalem, this was reputed to be the place where children were sacrificed to Moloch; later, trash was dumped and incinerated there. The application to a place of fiery torment is metaphorical; it's definitely not the kind of usage one would expect to be inherited rather than borrowed.

[peterlin]

linguoboy: Thanks. I had heard/read about this before, but the knowledge dissapeared when I was writing the post.

gach: Thanks for the Finnish set.

Yesterday I came across the Komi one. Quite interesting, but not extravagant. Here it is:

North - vojvyv (voj = night)
South - lunvyv (lun = day; isn't it a cognate of "lounas"?)
East - asyvvyv (asyv = morning)
West - rytyvvyv (ryt = evening)

And the Polish one:

North - p?lnoc (=midnight)
South - poludnie (=midday, noon)
East - wsch?d (=[sun]rise)
West - zach?d (=[sun]set)

[gach]

South - lunvyv (lun = day; isn't it a cognate of "lounas"?)

Could be. At least lun >< louna- looks quite regular.

[gsandi]

The Hungarian words for the cardinal points are pretty transparent semantically.

East and West have to do with what the sun is dong:

kelet (east) is related to kelni (to rise, get up)
nyugat (west) is related to nyugodni (to rest, but originally to lie down as well)

North and South are related to the time of day:

észak (north) is related to éjszaka (night), itself a compound of éj (night - still used in some idioms) and szak (time of day)
dél (south) is identical to d?l (noon).

[gsandi]

The Tundrian words are borrowings from a Germanic (probably Old English) source, as in any western Romance language:

nord
ést
sud
huest

The hu- in the last form is just an orthographic convention for initial w-, a sound that could have been difficult to write in the Middle Ages, seeing that <w> was not used and u and v were written with the same letter.

[Siride]

The Tundrian words are borrowings from a Germanic (probably Old English) source, as in any western Romance language:

nord
?st
sud
huest

The hu- in the last form is just an orthographic convention for initial w-, a sound that could have been difficult to write in the Middle Ages, seeing that <w> was not used and u and v were written with the same letter.

What's up with that? Why did they borrow these words from English? I never have gotten a good answer for that, though granted, I haven't asked around a lot either.

[gsandi]

The Tundrian words are borrowings from a Germanic (probably Old English) source, as in any western Romance language:

nord
?st
sud
huest

The hu- in the last form is just an orthographic convention for initial w-, a sound that could have been difficult to write in the Middle Ages, seeing that <w> was not used and u and v were written with the same letter.

What's up with that? Why did they borrow these words from English? I never have gotten a good answer for that, though granted, I haven't asked around a lot either.

The Anglo-Saxons must have been really good sailors - they did conduct an effective marine invasion, after all. (That's well before they conquered a quarter of the world using more advanced versions of the same skills). And good sailors need exact directions, land-based folks not so much.

Also, the Latin words, especially for North and South, are too long for fast communication. Gare du Septentrion, anyone, for the train to London?

[theforceman]

Right is good, left is bad! How about sinister ('left' in Latin) vs right as in 'the right thing'? I can't remember the Latin word for right right now, sorry. (no pun intended)

[pharazon]

Right is good, left is bad! How about sinister ('left' in Latin) vs right as in 'the right thing'? I can't remember the Latin word for right right now, sorry. (no pun intended)

Dexter. It already had the extra connotation of "skilled" in Latin before we got the word "dextrous".

[anacharis]

And, of course, there's the english "To Go West" meaning "To Die", which I've found ascirbed to a Native American folktale, a thirteenth-century poem, and 19th century English thieve's cant, relating it to hangings at Tyneburn Prison.

[nebula wind phone]

Okay, but we're getting two different things mixed up:

1) What happens in English: we start with direction words (e.g. 'west') and then borrow them for emotionally charged ideas (e.g. 'go west')

2) What peterlin describes in Dagestani: they start with emotionally charged words and then borrow them for the directions.

If English had done 2 instead of 1, we might call west 'heavenwards' or 'capitalismwards.'

[Dewrad]

And, of course, there's the english "To Go West" meaning "To Die", which I've found ascirbed to a Native American folktale, a thirteenth-century poem, and 19th century English thieve's cant, relating it to hangings at Tyneburn Prison.

Odd you should mention that. There's a popular Breton idiom roe?vat war gorn?g, to row to the West, which means "to be in agony, to be on one's last legs".

[Echobeats]

And, of course, there's the english "To Go West" meaning "To Die", which I've found ascirbed to a Native American folktale, a thirteenth-century poem, and 19th century English thieve's cant, relating it to hangings at Tyneburn Prison.

Well, I've never heard that, but my guess is that it'd be something to do with the setting sun.

[linguoboy]

And, of course, there's the english "To Go West" meaning "To Die", which I've found ascirbed to a Native American folktale, a thirteenth-century poem, and 19th century English thieve's cant, relating it to hangings at Tyneburn Prison.

Odd you should mention that. There's a popular Breton idiom roe?vat war gorn?g, to row to the West, which means "to be in agony, to be on one's last legs".

Brittany has an extensive and fascinating folklore concerning the Bag-Noz and other phantom ships which ferry the dead westwards over the ocean. In most of the legends I'm familiar with, however, the vessels involved are sailing ships, not anything with oars.

[chris-gr]

In most of the turkic world, ak means both 'white' and 'south' (cf. Ak deniz), and kara means both 'black' and 'north' (Kara deniz). Black has of course negative connotations, whereas south is considered a good thing since that's where good news come from.

[linguoboy]

In most of the turkic world, ak means both 'white' and 'south' (cf. Ak deniz), and kara means both 'black' and 'north' (Kara deniz). Black has of course negative connotations, whereas south is considered a good thing since that's where good news come from.

I think it's more fundamental than that. In both the Chinese and Tibetan traditions, bright colours (red in China, gold in Tibet IIRC) are associated with the south, where the sun reaches its zenith, and black is associated with the north, where the sun never shines.

[Radagast]

In Mesoamerica north is associated with death and the colour white, east with red and life, west with black and south with yellow.

And in Maya Ak' means "darkness", I guess the same monk who made turkic must have been working on mayance languages.

In many mesoamerican languages the word for north and south are the same as upwards and downwards (for some it is reversed).

[Legros]

In colloquial French "il est ? l'ouest" ("he is in the west") means he is crazy. I don't know the origin of the expression. I wouldn't use it in front of Bretons or any other natives of Western France, for instance. In fact, I never use it, but I've heard it.

Perhaps it has something to do with the wind: "le vent est ? l'ouest" = the wind blows west.