The Bulgarian Thread

zmeiat_joro · Post by **zmeiat_joro** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:06 am

Oric expressed interest in a Bulgarian thread, with the purpose of teaching Bulgarian. As I am not much good for anything else around here, I thought why not

Io, you might want to help out. Or not. Anyway, I'll start writing soon. I hope there will be t least some interest

Io · Post by Io » Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:40 am

I'll just nod and smile......... for a while

Noriega · Post by **Noriega** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:07 am

I have some questions:

Which Slavonic language is closest related to Bulgarian?

What does Bulgarian have instead of all those case endings? Prepositions?

Any archaic forms/idiomatic expressions with retained case endings?

Are there any specific words that Bulgarians consider to be representative for themselves and their state of mind or mood? Well, from your point of view at least

tatapyranga · Post by **tatapyranga** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:22 am

I'm curious to see it, especially if you could make comparisons between Russian and Bulgarian along the way.

Io · Post by Io » Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:44 am

a) Well, if you count conlangs for languages than Macedonian is the closest.

b) Yes, prepositions.

c) Cases:

? farewell = сбогом, с/with + богом/god (I think the case is gennitive);
? with body & soul = телом и духом;
? most pockets of resistance can b found in teh pronouns. dative, accusative 'n' gennitive are all live & well.

d) Noriega, can you elaborate more on that? I can't think of anything of my head at the mo'.

zmeiat_joro · Post by **zmeiat_joro** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:57 am

I descided to do a quick phonology giude, before I got to the things that actually require thinking

Phonology

Code: Select all

front back            bil lbd dnt alv pav pal vel
и    |    у    stops      б,п д,т             г,к
     |         frics      в,ф  з,с*   ж,ш     -,х
     |ъ        affr.           дз,ц*  дж,ч
е    |    о    nasals  м       н  
     |         lat.apr          л**
     |а                            р       й

/A, @\, O, u, E, i/, /r, l, m, n, j/, /b, v, d_d, z, dz, Z, dZ, g/ and voiceless counterparts, and /x/.
* tip of the tongue at the lower teeth, the friction occurs somewhete between the upper teeth and the alveolar ridge.
** alveolar before front vowels and when palatalized, otherwise dental.

Consonants can be palatalised (phonemically) when they're followed by back vowels. Postalveolars (ж, ш, дж, ч) can't be palatalized. Velars (г, к, х) are alophonically palatalized when followed by front vowels.
There is regressive voicing assimilation. That means the voicing of the last consonant in a cluster determines whether the presceding ones are pronounced voiced or voiceless. For purposes of determinig whether a cluster is voiced or devoiced, the sonorants р, л, м, н and й (/r, l, m, n, j/) are not considered part of the cluster. Neither is в (/v/). Also, final voiced consonants are devoiced. Examples: всичко [фсичко], град [грат], сватба [свадба], but какво [какво], not *[кагво]. (vsichko [fsitSko], grad [grat], svatba [svadba], but kakvo [kakvo], not *[kagvo].)

Vowel reduction - vowels reduce in the pairs а-ъ е-и о-у (/A/-/@\/, /E/-/i/, /O/-/u/) by moving towards each other in unstressed position. Only the а-ъ (/A/-/@\/ pair gets fully identical in unstresed position, е-и (/E/-/i/) reduces only slightly, о-у (/O/-/u/) moderately. That of course applies to the standart langauge, dialect can differ not only in the degree to which they reduce each of these pairs, but even in the number of phonemic vowels.

Orthography Notes
Besides the letters already used, the rest are щ - [шт], я - [jа], ю - [jу], ь - palatalization of presceding consonant - found only before o.
a and я can sometimes stand for [ъ] or [jъ], respectively - usually word-finally. (I will list all instances of this later - they're relatively few/perdictable). The purpose of this was to avoid confusion with the old spelling - the final ъ's and ь's that were dropped with the last spelling reform were silent.

zmeiat_joro · Post by **zmeiat_joro** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:06 am

Noriega wrote:Any archaic forms/idiomatic expressions with retained case endings?

Besides Io's, also вкъщи - at home, home(as an adverb).

Noriega wrote:Are there any specific words that Bulgarians consider to be representative for themselves and their state of mind or mood? Well, from your point of view at least

Good question

You're asking about something that's hard to translate, I reckon? Maybe инат? Io, what do you think

Btw, as for cases, Vocative is alive and well, although some very annoying people sometimes don't use it. A paralel to Russian - it, like about half of the Slav languages lost that case, but has recently been developing a new vocative.

Nuntarin · Post by **Nuntarin** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:25 am

Ah, Bulgarian.

Only thing I know about it is that I got flamed once on a Harry Potter board for correcting someone who thought they spoke German in Bulgaria.

Io · Post by Io » Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:27 am

inat? what wrong with all the transations the SA dic gives?

ИНАТ
1. същ. obstinacy, stubborness, wilfulness, pigheadedness, mulishness, cussedness;

правя нещо на ИНАТ на някого do s.th. out of spite for s.o., do s.th. to spite s.o., do s.th. in defiance of s.o.;

2. прил. obstinate, stubborn. mulish, pigheaded, self-willed, wilful, refractory, obdurate;

ИНАТ като магаре as stubborn as a mule.

Io · Post by Io » Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:28 am

LOLOL

Ahribar, who the smart ass who said this? I've seen ppl mixing up bulgarians and romanians but this is ginormously moronic.

Miekko · Post by **Miekko** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:39 am

I will read this thread with great interest.

Trebor · Post by **Trebor** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:37 am

looks interesting, only thing is... i cant read cyrilic. could you provide latin-script equivalents, please?

Space Dracula · Post by **Space Dracula** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:08 pm

Trebor wrote:looks interesting, only thing is... i cant read cyrilic. could you provide latin-script equivalents, please?

I hate to, but I think (since Zmeiat might not be too familiar with Trebor) I should restate that he's blind and uses a text reader.

Ducane · Post by **Ducane** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:22 am

I have recently decided at school, because there are a number of people to whom I neither wish to talk nor listen, that I am going to be speaking the majority of the time with an Slavic-ish Eastern European accent, pretending to be a foreign exchange student. I have actually been doing this for a while. This comes in handy when people come up to me, asking for money or gum. I just pretend that my English is not well enough to understand what they're asking me, and then after I incorrectly point out in broken English that they're asking me for directions to the Chemistry Lab, they get frusterated (sometimes upset) and leave me the hell alone.

In order to extend my escapades to greater levels, I have recently decided to produce a phony School ID (my school has these IDs we have to have when we go to dances, games, etc. I keep mine in my wallet) with my alias printed on it. As well as this, I would also like to produce a School ID from my fake school in Bulgaria. However, since I do not know much Bulgarian at all yet (I usually just make stuff up, take Russian and twist it around a little), and Bulgarian is definitely the direction I want to go with this, I need much help.

First off, my alias. I'd decided long ago that if I were Russian, I'd take my current name, /'sOijr\=/ and make into /sO'jEtski/ (Soyetski, or perhaps Sojecski?) I don't know what names are like in Bulgarian, or if any of them end in -ski, I'd like to know if this is a name that does not sound like it could be Bulgarian. If not, it's okay. I'll just be born from a Russian family or something? Perhaps my forename shouldn't be "Mikhail" (from my Russian alias), what's the Bulgarian eqivelent? Or better yet, what kind of neat Bulgarian first names do you think might fit me for this? (And how do middle names work?)

I have a few more questions but I'll ask later.

zmeiat_joro, Io.... If someone reads this, thank you for allowing me to waste away this time from your life. Help would be much appreciated.

zmeiat_joro · Post by **zmeiat_joro** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:32 am

Bulgarian surnames generally end in -ov(a)/ev(a) or -ski/ska, also -in/ina, which is rare; and -ich, which besider being rare will probably make people think you're Serbian. But Soyetski doesn't sound like something that could pass for a Bulgarian surname.

I suppose Mikhail could do, but there's more typically Bulgarian names out there. It's not really that common either. I advise against it. (Also, I think most Bulgarians would transliterate it as Mihail). Maybe something like Асен, Божидар, Борис, Крум, Красимир, Любомир, Йордан, Найден or Стоян.

As for middle names, most people have one and it's their father's first name with an -ov(a)/ev(a). They're very limitedly used though, even in formal situations. And certainly not with the first name but without the surname. I suppose you should make one up but you don't need to necessarily nave it on your school ID (Although I did have it on mine).

tiramisu · Post by **tiramisu** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:11 am

Hey! Bulgarian is one of the languages on the top of my desire-to-learn list (it's #3 under Icelandic and Palestinian Arabic) -- is there anyone who can teach me Bulgarian? (You know, I'd buy books but I only have $230... and I need $300 to take Driver's Ed in June... not to mention I'm also saving up so I don't have as crappy of a car as both my brother and sister did with their first cars.) I'd ask my parents, but my dad is an idiot who just left unemployment and my mom is effected by the economic instability in America since she's underpaid (she's a social worker, nuff said). Let's just say that I buy most of my school lunches myself and I often get free dinner from my place of work.

Ducane · Post by **Ducane** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:11 pm

zmeiat_joro wrote:Bulgarian surnames generally end in -ov(a)/ev(a) or -ski/ska, also -in/ina, which is rare; and -ich, which besider being rare will probably make people think you're Serbian. But Soyetski doesn't sound like something that could pass for a Bulgarian surname.

I suppose Mikhail could do, but there's more typically Bulgarian names out there. It's not really that common either. I advise against it. (Also, I think most Bulgarians would transliterate it as Mihail). Maybe something like Асен, Божидар, Борис, Крум, Красимир, Любомир, Йордан, Найден or Стоян.

As for middle names, most people have one and it's their father's first name with an -ov(a)/ev(a). They're very limitedly used though, even in formal situations. And certainly not with the first name but without the surname. I suppose you should make one up but you don't need to necessarily nave it on your school ID (Although I did have it on mine).

Thanks for the help. I'm thinking of Найден Стойанов. What would the X-SAMPA be for that? Since I'm not 100% sure on palatalization and stress and such, I can't really tell if the names sound good together or not. What do you think? You know I'm a foreigner who doesn't speak Bulgarian, so I might suck at comign up with my own name. If it's awful or anything just let me know. We can't allow my alias to have a lowsy name. After all, I'll basically be representing your country to the people dim-witted enough to buy the act.

Also, how would I write in Bulgarian "Student ID" or "Student License" or whatever... And how would I write "Veneva High School" (or whatever the name of my Bulgarian school should be... haha, If you could just make up a believable name for a high school, it would be much help.)

Thanks a bunch for the help.

chris-gr · Post by **chris-gr** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:52 pm

shouldn't it be /Cтоянов/? just wondering

Ducane · Post by **Ducane** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:54 pm

Yeah, probably. My bad I just transliterated it in a hurray from the Romanized version I'd found online.

chris-gr · Post by **chris-gr** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:36 pm

oh, and by the way, according to my речник, a student booklet* is студентска книжка. but, of course, zmeiat joro will have the last word

(*) a student booklet is also in use here, in greece. And IT IS a booklet

Space Dracula · Post by **Space Dracula** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:59 pm

Ducane, your plan is brilliant.

Circeus · Post by **Circeus** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:58 pm

chris-gr wrote:oh, and by the way, according to my речник, a student booklet* is студентска книжка. but, of course, zmeiat joro will have the last word

(*) a student booklet is also in use here, in greece. And IT IS a booklet

Unsurprising, it's just the combination of книга and the diminutive ending -кa.

as for Стойанов, my experience with russian tends to show that it varies greatly between palatalised vowels and й. Probably depends on the origins of the word.

zmeiat_joro · Post by **zmeiat_joro** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:39 pm

It's Стоянов, and книжка is indeed formed that way. Etymologically, at least. More info tommorow

Io · Post by Io » Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:34 pm

студентска книжка is something uni students have, and I assume you're a high school student?!

Zeikan, how exactly do you invisage it? I don't have experience in teaching anyone bulgarian online... or off line for that matter.

chris-gr · Post by **chris-gr** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:30 am

mea culpa! i should've explicitly stated that i had in mind university students, not high school ones...