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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 11:19 am 
Lebom
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Two Catalan speakers joining on the same day?? I assume you know each other, or that's one scary coincedence. Anyway, Benvingut a ZBB!

Zak :D


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 5:49 am 
Smeric
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Nikura wrote:
:wink: D?u n'hi do!!! Estic molt content de veure que el catal? t? un lloc d'honor dins aquest lloc web. Veig que sembla que li agradi a la gent descobrir aquest idioma... A veure si n'hi ha uns quants que gosaran aprendre'l. Compliments per la teva feina !!!

Moltes gr?cies, Nikura!!! :D Ja anava sent hora que em trob?s alg? per ac? que parl?s el catal? amb flu?desa!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Good site
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 5:57 am 
Smeric
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Martona wrote:
Izopiru, are you a teacher of Catalan? You have done a great job in this web! Congratulations!

Moltes gr?cies pels compliments, Martona!!! :D

No, no s?c professor de catal?. De fet, nom?s tinc 22 anys i em dic Roger. Estudio Hist?ria a la UB. Per? estimo molt la meva llengua i, quan vaig arribar aqu?, vaig decidir de comen?ar un fil ("thread") sobre la llengua catalana. I sembla que a alguns de per ac? els interessa!!!

Martona wrote:
PD: Izopiru, quina universitat m'aconsellaries: la UB o la UAB?

He, he... la UB, evidentment :wink:

PD: Per cert, saps que aquests dies s'est? parlant molt a Catalunya del fet que volen eliminar la Filologia Catalana dels estudis universitaris? T? a veure amb la converg?ncia d'estudis universitaris a Europa.
He sentit que tamb? volen eliminar la Filosofia i no-s?-quants-m?s estudis universitaris.

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 3:30 pm 
Niš
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Hola Roger!!

Doncs jo en tinc 23, d'anys, i enguany acabo la carrera de Filologia Anglesa (de fet l'hauria d'haver acabat l'any passat) a la UB. Aqu? me n'he fet farts de parlar de Catalunya i dels Pa?sos Catalans i m'han vingut ganes d'estudiar la carrera i ensenyar catal? professionalment. Sembla mentida que et sentis m?s nacionalista quan ets a l'estranger que no pas al pa?s! B?, jo ja ho era, eh? Hi va haver una "International Cultures Week" a la universitat, i dos xicots i jo vam representar per primera vegada els Pa?sos Catalans!! ?s un esdeveniment que passa cada any i ning? abans s'havia atrevit a fer res.

S? que he sentit a parlar de la pol?mica entorn de la Filologia Catalana, per? si la Generalitat s'atreveix a treure-la ja es poden preparar. He parlat amb el professor de catal? de la universitat irlandesa i m'ha dit que no pot ser, que no ho faran. Per? ?s que si treuen la carrera, s'hauran acabat els professors de catal?, i per tant, qui ensenyar? la lleng?a??? ?s que no pot ser, i si passa ja ens podem mobilitzar en massa... :cry:

I doncs Roger, ets de Barcelona, o nom?s hi vius (com a estudiant despla?at)? Jo s?c de Terrassa.

B?, crec que aix? ?s tot de moment que sin? els altres s'emprenyaran!! hehehe :mrgreen:

Fins aviat!!! :wink:

Marta.

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 3:38 pm 
Lebom
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This thread has just become one huge translation challenge for me.

Zak :P


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 6:19 pm 
Sanci
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Ghost wrote:
This thread has just become one huge translation challenge for me. Zak :P

:mrgreen: you want more??? I'll also speak catalan now !!!
Hola Roger
Moltes gr?cies per tu per haver fet tal p?gina dins aquest F?rum. Doncs jo s?c en Nico, s?c franc?s, dels Alps i visc a Barcelona des de fa dos anys. Vaig estudiar l'idioma sol amb diccionari i gram?tica, i quan vaig venir a viure aqui per fi llavors, vaig poder comen?ar a parlar el poc de catal? que sabia i ara nom?s vull parlar-lo. Fa uns deu anys que parlo el castell? tamb? i encara que el parl?s amb fluidesa doncs, ja no em surt hehehe!!! Em vaig enamorar literalment de la llengua de Ramon Llull... ?s com si l'hagu?s adoptat.
Potser no la parlo encara perfectament per? haig de dir que em va sortir molt f?cil aprendre-la: d'una pqrt vaig fer una carrera de ling??stica i a m?s ja coneixia el franc?s i el castell?, per? tamb? l'occit? i l'itali?... Cinq claus que em van obrir una porta cap a la cultura catalana. Encara que sigui estranger, em sento molt m?s catal? que espanyol per? no vull interferir-me dins cap debat pol?tic perqu? tampoc no hi tinc cap paraula per dir.
Vaig parlar una miqueta amb la Marta tamb?... Quina casualitat i quina il?lusi? trobar-nos els tres aqui al bell mig d'un F?rum angl?fon!!!
A veure si tornem a parlar d'aqui pocm aix? els hi fa una mica de pr?ctica als teus lectors....
Que et vagi b? tot i encara felicitats pel teu treballm potser ara els guiris que vindr?n de vacan?a a Barna gosaran m?s parlar en catal? hehehe :mrgreen:
D?uuuuuuuuu i visca el rock catal? !!!!

PD: Tinc una petita p?gina en catal?... a m?s del meu lloc web: Urquinaona

Una altra cosa??? Em deixaries fer una petita descripci? dels dialectes del catal???? S?c dialect?leg i m'encanta el tema.... Tamb? podria dir alguna coseta sobre l'occit? si vols... Aix? seria com algun tipus de classe de Civilitzaci? Catalana hehehe :D

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Last edited by Nikura on Thu May 12, 2005 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 2:10 pm 
Smeric
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Martona wrote:
Hi va haver una "International Cultures Week" a la universitat, i dos xicots i jo vam representar per primera vegada els Pa?sos Catalans!! ?s un esdeveniment que passa cada any i ning? abans s'havia atrevit a fer res.

Vaja! Ja va b? que fem publicitat del Pa?s!!! :mrgreen:

Quote:
He parlat amb el professor de catal? de la universitat irlandesa i m'ha dit que no pot ser, que no ho faran. Per? ?s que si treuen la carrera, s'hauran acabat els professors de catal?, i per tant, qui ensenyar? la lleng?a???

Doncs ?s veritat... :P

Quote:
?s que no pot ser, i si passa ja ens podem mobilitzar en massa...

Hehe, aix? segur. De fet, avui he vist pel TN imatges de manifestacions al centre de Barcelona. Uns amics meus de Belles Arts hi han anat.

Quote:
I doncs Roger, ets de Barcelona, o nom?s hi vius (com a estudiant despla?at)? Jo s?c de Terrassa.

Hi vaig n?ixer i encara hi visc. :D

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 2:23 pm 
Smeric
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Nikura wrote:
Hola Roger

Quote:
Moltes gr?cies per tu per haver fet tal p?gina dins aquest F?rum. Doncs jo s?c en Nico, s?c franc?s, dels Alps i visc a Barcelona des de fa dos anys. Vaig estudiar l'idioma sol amb diccionari i gram?tica, i quan vaig venir a viure aqui per fi llavors, vaig poder comen?ar a parlar el poc de catal? que sabia i ara nom?s vull parlar-lo. Fa uns deu anys que parlo el castell? tamb? i encara que el parl?s amb fluidesa doncs, ja no em surt hehehe!!! Em vaig enamorar literalment de la llengua de Ramon Llull... ?s com si l'hagu?s adoptat.

Ja ho veig, ja. Vaig visitar la teva p?gina web ahir i ?s molt interessant!!! No m'estranya que l'aprenguessis amb diccionari i de manera autodidacta, si abans ja parlaves quatre lleng?es!!! :P

Quote:
...per? no vull interferir-me dins cap debat pol?tic perqu? tampoc no hi tinc cap paraula per dir.

Jo s? vull dir una cosa: Independ?ncia!!! :mrgreen:

Quote:
Vaig parlar una miqueta amb la Marta tamb?... Quina casualitat i quina il?lusi? trobar-nos els tres aqui al bell mig d'un F?rum angl?fon!!!
A veure si tornem a parlar d'aqui pocm aix? els hi fa una mica de pr?ctica als teus lectors....

Doncs s?, ja anava essent hora que arribessin m?s catalans aqu?, eh? Que ja comen?ava a sentir-me solet!!! :D

Quote:
Una altra cosa??? Em deixaries fer una petita descripci? dels dialectes del catal???? S?c dialect?leg i m'encanta el tema.... Tamb? podria dir alguna coseta sobre l'occit? si vols... Aix? seria com algun tipus de classe de Civilitzaci? Catalana hehehe :D

Evidentment que pots posar lli?ons de dialectologia catalana!!!

I pel que fa a l'occit? tamb?!!! De fet, si vols, tamb? podries explicar perqu? el catal? i l'occit? s?n considerades 'lleng?es bessones' (tenint en compte que les lleng?es rom?niques s?n considerades 'germanes' entre elles). Per aqu? hi ha alg? que encara no ho accepta o ent?n... :D

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 10:38 pm 
Sanci
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Izopiru wrote:
Evidentment que pots posar lli?ons de dialectologia catalana!!! I pel que fa a l'occit? tamb?!!! De fet, si vols, tamb? podries explicar perqu? el catal? i l'occit? s?n considerades 'lleng?es bessones' (tenint en compte que les lleng?es rom?niques s?n considerades 'germanes' entre elles). Per aqu? hi ha alg? que encara no ho accepta o ent?n... :D

Doncs.... ara comen?ar? per una presentaci? dels dialectes del Catal?. But in English. (Sorry for this conversation but it was so good to find some catalan speakers here...)

::::DIALECTS OF CATALAN::::
I'll try to do quickly and simple saying the most important. Well, doing quick and simple is not my speciality in dialectology!!!
Firstly, give a look at this
Map of Catalan dialects

Catalan is divided into two main areas:
-Catal? Oriental (Eastern Catalan)
-Catal? Occidental (Western Catalan)
The first area includes the Eastern part of Catalonia from Cerdanya at North until Tarragona at South, Roussillon in France, the Balear Islands and... the city of Alghero (l'Alguer) in Sardinia (Italy).
The second one, includes Andorra, the Western part of Catalonia, a little part of Aragon along the boundary with Catalonia and main part of the community of Valencia following the Coast until Elx. A kind of Catalan influence also exists Spanish of Murcia (some fruits names for instance...).
Vall d'Aran (North-West of Catalonia), though it has Catalan as official language, speaks principally Aranese which is NOT Catalan but an Occitan Gascon dialect.

One of the main difference between these two areas is the fact that Eastern Catalan doesn't makes the distinction between unstressed A/E and O/U. Whereas Western Catalan does. Well, it'll be good if it'll be so easy but it's not. Just generally. In Lleida for instance (Western Catalan), unstressed [a] sounds like a very opened [ε].
Some other things change between the two areas like the use of the masculine article: East says /el/ and West says more /lo/ (Well, Roussillon says /lo/ by an Occitan influence and is in Eastern part). Part of the lexic in use is also different.

But let's describe better the dialects among these two zones, so it'll be easier to give some concrete examples of differences.

CATAL? ORIENTAL (EASTERN CATALAN)
ROSSELLON?S (Roussillon*, d?partement of Pyr?n?es Orientales, France)
Catalan is here is danger. It has already extinct in lots of places but it's still alive and resists good. The "Bressoles" are schools for little children just in Catalan: it gives hope to see French children speak this language. The names of the places are all in Catalan, though some have been horribly adapted to French (Ex: le Boulou> el Vol? ; Rivesaltes > Ribesaltes ; Argel?s > Argelers ; Collioure > Cotlliura etc)
Vowel /o/ is always said [u]. Makes -i for the present 1st person of singular (canti, perdi, serveixi, dormi for canto, perdo, serveixo, dormo. Negation is done with the element "pas" only, "no" is not in use.
There are lots of French and Occitan influence in vocabulary and also morphology. Ex: llap? (rabbit, for conill, because French "lapin"), gara (station, for estaci?, Fr "gare"), vetura (car, for cotxe, Fr. "voiture"), bolanger (baker, for forner, Fr "boulanger") etc.
*Roussillon (Rossell?) is also named Northern Catalonia (Catalunya del Nord)

CATAL? CENTRAL (Eastern Catalonia)
We distinguish several dialects:
-Catal? septentrional de transici?, transition dialects between Rossellon?s and Central Catalan.
-Giron?, said as the most "pure" catalan
-Salat (Costa Brava, between Blanes and Begur, and in Cadaqu?s), "dialect" using /es/ and /sa/ article for /el/ and /la/, derived from IPSUm and not ILLUm. Also in use in Balear island and parts of South Valencia. It's seriously in way of regression.
-Xava or Barcelon?, the typical way people of Barcelona speak. This is not always a "good" catalan, people mix it up a lot with Spanish words, but the accent is really nice and typic, almost spoken by elderly persons.
-Tarragon?, as a transition to Western dialects. Keeps b/v distionction.
-Xipella, uses [ i ] for unstressed [a] and [e]
Present 1st person of singular is in -o (pronounced [u]): canto (I sing), perdo (I loose), dormo (I sleep), serveixo (I serve).

BALEAR (Balear Islands)
-Eivissenc, dialect of Pitiuses islands (Eivissa* and Formentera)
-Mallorqu?, dialect of Mallorca
-Menorqu?, dialect of Menorca
*catalan form of "Ibiza"
Balear dialect uses IPSUm article (M: es/es. F: sa/ses). The sound [?] is very frequent, for stressed or unstressed E and A. It also keeps v/b distinction. Present 1st person of singular is: cant, perd, dorm without any vowel. /ll/ sound is done like a /j/. Proper words: besada (kiss, for pet?), capell (hat, for barret), al?lot/al?lota (boy/girl, for noi/noia) etc.
In Menorca, an English presence left loooots of words such as: b?til (bottle, for ampolla), fer x?quens (to do shake hand), estic (stick, for bast?), xolc (chalk, for guix) etc.

ALGUER?S (Alghero/l'Alguer, Sardinia, Italy)
The dialect of Alghero has been very influenced by Italian (Ex: espesa, shopping, for compres, Ital. "spesa"; frucar, to snow, for nevar is a Sard word) and also Sardinian. But a strong Catalan root still lives in it and, by seeing dictionaries and text samples -I still never heard it- I think intercomprehension can be easy. It seems to be very conservative (Example: articles are the same as in Occitan: M: lo/los. F: la/las). D and L are turned to [r] (rhotacism): vira (could be vila(city) or vida(life).

CATAL? ORIENTAL (EASTERN CATALAN)
CATAL? NORD-OCCIDENTAL (Western part of Catalonia, Andorra and franja of Aragon)
This area has subdialects as:
-Ribagor??: Shire (comarca) of Ribagor?a (shared between Catalonia and Aragon), Pyreneus.
-Pallar?s: Shire of Pallars, Pyreneus
-Andorr?: (I must confess and don't know how people speak in Andorra... and if they have a particula dialect)
-Lleidat?: From town of Lleida.
-Torros?: Region of Tortosa (South Catalonia). Intermediate dialect with Valencian.
Catal? Nord-Occidental (North-western Catalan) does distinction between unstressed O and U. Masculine article is lo/los (as well as in Occitan, it's an archaism and isn't influenced by Spanish). Present first person of singular is in -o (pronounced [o] and not [u]). Some specific lexic is also in use, sometimes influenced by Spanish or Aragonese (Ribargor??), sometimes typical. Ex: espill (mirror, for mirall, Spanish: "espejo"), xic (boy, for noi, Sp. "chico"), melic (belly button, for llombr?gol), corder (lamb, for xai), caragol (snail, for cargol, Sp: "caracol") etc.

VALENCI?(Region of Val?ncia, all along the Coast, until town of Elx/Elche and some points of Murcia region)
Valenci? is divided into three subdialects:
-Valenci? Septentrional (Northern Valencian), province of Castell? de la Plana.
-Valenci? Apitxat, province of Val?ncia.
-Valenci? Meridional (Southern Valencian), province of Alacant/Alicante.
Caracteristics: Present 1st person of singular in -e : cante (I sing), balle (I dance). Subjunctive imperfect is in -ara/-era/-ira (quite as in Spanish) instead of -?s/-?s/-?s. 2nd person of verb "ser" (to be) in present is ers (Sp: "eres") instead of ets. Final -r is always pronounced. Pronouns of 1st and 2nd persons of plural are "naltros" (or "maltros") and "valtros" instead of nosaltres and vosaltres. V of feminine possessive meva, teva, seva is pronounce [w]> meua, teua, seua. J is said as [j] and not [ :zh ]. Particular lexic: llavar (to wash, for rentar), ra?l (root, for arrel), nyuc (node/knot, for nus), eixir (to go out, for sortir), torca-mans (dish towel, for drap) etc.
**************************

So that's it. I'll surely add some more details but I think this presents the main differences of Catalan varieties. In all cases, except maybe for Alguer?s, people don't have any problem to understand a dialect from another. But these differences are really easy to notice when you hear them speak. I think Catalan/Valencian debate is just a politic thing (we say in French: "Diviser pour mieux r?gner" tht means "Divide to reign better"). I don't accept anything that would consider Valencian as a distinct language from Catalan. There're some changes but not more than between French from Lille/French from Marseille, UK English/US English or Spanish Andaluz/Castellano : it's the same language, just the name changes, as well as Serbian and Croatian.

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 10:45 pm 
Sanci
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Izopiru wrote:
I pel que fa a l'occit? tamb?!!! De fet, si vols, tamb? podries explicar perqu? el catal? i l'occit? s?n considerades 'lleng?es bessones' (tenint en compte que les lleng?es rom?niques s?n considerades 'germanes' entre elles). Per aqu? hi ha alg? que encara no ho accepta o ent?n... :D

I will soon compare Catalan to Occitan to explain why we say these two language are twins where we consider than Roman/Latin languages are cousin between them. There're are so many thing that make Catalan closer to Occitan than to Spanish...
Just coming soon............................ 8)

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 4:46 am 
Niš
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Hi all!! :D

I can't wait to see the comparisons between Catalan and Occitan!!! Unfortunately I've never come across a native speaker of Occitan in my life. Well, just one in Val d'Aran, but she quickly changed into Catalan. I'd like to learn Occitan because it would be like learning ancient Catalan; learning the language that Catalan "trobadors" used.

Visca l'Occit?! :mrgreen:

Marta.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 5:09 am 
Sanci
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Martona wrote:
I can't wait to see the comparisons between Catalan and Occitan!!! Unfortunately I've never come across a native speaker of Occitan in my life. Well, just one in Val d'Aran, but she quickly changed into Catalan. I'd like to learn Occitan because it would be like learning ancient Catalan; learning the language that Catalan "trobadors" used.
Visca l'Occit?! :mrgreen:

Hello Marta!!! Well, just give me few days and I'll do it... :D

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 11:05 am 
Smeric
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LA PRONOMINALITZACIÓ "PRONOMINALIZATION"

The pronoms personals "personal pronouns" are words that fix the grammatical persons of the speech. Those of the 1st and 2nd person have a dictic value, while those of the 3rd person refer to a preceding element.

ELS PRONOMS PERSONALS FORTS
The pronoms personals forts "strong personal pronouns" always refer to persons and do the subject function. Preceded by a preposition, do the function of a verbal complement. The mi "me" form only can be used preceded of preposition.

Elles pujaran fins al cim "They-FEM will climb to the peak"
Tots ells estan contra mi "All of them are against me"

We've talked about that, but is always good to remember which are the strong pronouns:

Singular:
1st p: jo "I", mi "me"
2nd p: tu "you", vós and vostè "you" (polite)
3rd: ell "he", ella "she", si "himself, herself"

Plural:
1st p: nosaltres "we", nós "I" (majestatic plural)
2nd p: vosaltres "youse", vostès "youse" (polite)
3rd: ells "they" (masc, neut), elles "they" (fem), si "themselves"

The reflexive or reciprocal pronoun si it's used preceded by a preposition, but is better to use the 'strong' forms of the pronoun when we talk about persons:

Sempre parla de si mateixa or Sempre parla d'ella mateixa "She always talks about herself"
Parlen entre ells "They talk among them"
3 i 4 són nombres primers entre si "3 and 4 are prime numbers between them"

The pronoms forts are less used; they're almost used to emphasize the subject or the complement, also to shed light on some ambiguity:

Us ho diré a vosaltres i a ningú més "I'll tell that to youse and nobody more"
Ella presentarà la conferència; ell no hi assistirà "She will present the conference; he won't attend it"


ELS PRONOMS PERSONALS FEBLES
The pronoms personals febles "weak personal pronouns" can refer to persons and things. They always do the function of verbal complement, though the syntactical function that they do inside the sentence musn't coincide necessarily with the function that does its antecedent. Look at the example:

He trobat en Jordi i li he donat el llibre "I've found George and I've gave the book to him"

en Jordi is the direct object
li refers to George; we can say that in this sentence means "George", but it's an indirect object.

Pronoms personals febles
Singular:
1st p: em
2nd p: et
3rd p: el (masc, neut), la (fem), li

Plural:
1st p: ens
2nd p: us
3rd p: els, les, els

Invariable:
ho, en ,es

Pronoms adverbials
en, hi



The biggest part of the pronoms febles present different forms according to the position they occupy respect of the verb.

Forms of the pronoms personals febles

Strengthened form (before consonant)
em et el la en es ho li ens us els les hi

Apostrophed form (before vowel or h)
m' t' l' l'(la) n' s' ho li ens us els les hi

Reduced forms (after vowel)
'm 't 'l -la 'n 's -ho -li 'ns -us 'ls -les -hi

Full form (after consonant or diphtong)
-me -te -lo -la -ne -se -ho -li -nos -vos -los -les -hi


Placing of the pronouns respect of the verb
1) If the verb is an infinitive, a gerund or an imperative, the pronouns are placed after the verb:

Volia ajudar-te "I wanted to help you"
La televisió, desconnecta-la! "The TV, disconnect it!"

2) With the other verbal foms, the pronouns go before the verb:

La televisió, ja la desconnecto "The TV, I disconnect it now"

3) With the periphrastical forms* the pronouns can go before or after the verb:

Vam explicar-ho or Ho vam explicar "We explained it"

*Remember that the periphrastical form is a especial characteristic of Catalan: it's a construction of past verbs formed with the verb anar "to go" and any conjugated verb. More info on the preceding posts.

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Last edited by Izambri on Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:21 am 
Smeric
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El pronom feble en en funció de subjecte
The en pronoun substitutes the SN (nominal syntagma) that is non-determinated or preceded by a numeral, a quantitative or an indefinite in function of subject. The gender and number of the antecendent isn't a problem. This substitution only occurs in sentences where the subject goes after the verb.

No raja aigua d'aquesta font? No, no en raja gens "Doesn't flow with water this fountain? No, it doesn't flow with water"
Que no hi ha turistes aquí? No, avui no en tenim. N'arribaran alguns demà "Aren't there tourists here? No, we have any tourists today. Tomorrow will arrive some tourists."

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Last edited by Izambri on Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:04 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:35 am 
Smeric
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Pronominalització del complement directe "Pronominalization of the direct object"

Pronominal forms in function of direct object
Singular:
1st p. em
2nd p. et
3rd p. el, la

Plural:
1st p. ens
2nd p. us
3rd p. els, les

Neuter: en, ho, es

1) The 1st p. and 2nd p. forms always refer to persons.

Et buscaré a la plaça "I'll find you in the market"
Ens avisaran a les set "They'll warn us at seven o'clock"

2) 3rd p. forms:

2.1) The pronouns el, la, els, les substitute a specific and determinated SN, and make reference to the whole. They distinguish between masculine and femenine, and singular and plural.

Has comprat el diari? No, ara el compraré "Have you bought the newspaper?. No, I'll buy it now"
No et deixis les ulleres! No, ja les duc a la bossa "Don't forget the glasses! Don't worry, I took them in the bag.

2.2) The pronoun en substitutes the core of a non-deetrminated SN, or a Sn that is preceded by a numeral, a quantitative or an indefinite. It doesn't cares about the gender.

Qui porta ulleres? Aquell xicot en porta. "Who wears glasses? That boy wears glasses"
Tens còmics antics? Oh, i tant, en tinc molts! "Do you have old comics? Oh yes, I have lots of comics!"

2.3) The form ho has as antecedent a neuter demonstrative pronoun or a proposition. Also, it can refer to an accumulation of elements that express an idea.

Veus això? No, no ho puc veure pas. "Do you see that? No, I can't see it"
Què en fem de tot això que hi ha a l'armari? Llençar-ho! What we must do with all that in the wardrobe? Throw away it!

2.4) The pronoun es is the reflexive or reciprocal form.

Ell es renta la cara "He washes his face", literally: "He to himself washes the face"


Notes:

1) When a substantive already represented by the pronoun en is used pleonastically, it's necessary to place in front of it the prepositon de.

No en vull més, de macarrons "I don't want more macaroni"; literally "No it want more, of/about macaroni"

2) If a substantive, already substituted by the pronoun en, was complemented by an adjective, this adjective is preceded by the the preposition de.

Teniu vi negre? No, no ens en queda de negre, per? en tenim de blanc "Do youse have red wine? No, we don't have red wine, but we have white", literally: "Do you have red wine? No, we don't wine have of red, but we wine have of white

(The en pronoun substitutes wine)

3) If a reference to a part of the SN isn't made, but it is made to the whole of the SN, the pronouns el, la, els, les are used.

Ahir vam comprar quinze bombons i només en tastàrem un parell; avui, però, ens els hem menjat tots "We bought fifteen chocolates yesterday and we tasted only a pair of all the chocolates; today, though, we ate all the chocolates.

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Last edited by Izambri on Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:51 pm 
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Concordança del participi amb el pronom en funció de complement directe "Agreement of the participle with the pronoun functioning as a direct object"
If the direct object is a 3rd person weak pronoun (el, la, els, les, en) and precedes a compound verbal form, the participle can agree in gender and number with the complement.

Els llibres, encara no els he endreçats "The books, I haven't arrange them yet", lit. "The books, still no them I have arranged".

Note what we said: that the participle (endreçats) agrees with the direct object (els llibres) in gender (masc) and number (pl).

Et torno la revista perquè ja l'he llegida "I return to you the magazine because I've red it yet", lit. "To you I return the magazine because yet it I have read".

The same here: the participle (llegida) agrees with the direct object (la revista) in gender (fem) and number (sg).

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:57 am 
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Izopiru wrote:
Nikura wrote:
:wink: D?u n'hi do!!! Estic molt content de veure que el catal? t? un lloc d'honor dins aquest lloc web.


Jo estaria molt content de veure que el catal? tingu?s un lloc d'honor dins tots els llocs web del m?n; per diure la vertat, el catal? es m?s molt interessant que l'espanyol i el franc?s. Personalment, vaig comen?ar a apprendre la llengua catalana en la etat de 15 anys; per? no la parlo amb fluϊdesa...

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1) Ayval b?? khii, khiivel b?? ay!
2) Мне некогда: Хлевагастиз
3) Exterminate lady-haters, now!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:30 am 
Smeric
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Hlewagastiz wrote:
Jo estaria molt content de veure que el catal? tingu?s un lloc d'honor dins tots els llocs web del m?n; per diure la vertat, el catal? es m?s molt interessant que l'espanyol i el franc?s. Personalment, vaig comen?ar a apprendre la llengua catalana en la etat de 15 anys; per? no la parlo amb fluϊdesa...

Com a m?nim, l'escrius molt b?. I've understood you perfectly!! :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:57 am 
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Izopiru wrote:
Hlewagastiz wrote:
Jo estaria molt content de veure que el catal? tingu?s un lloc d'honor dins tots els llocs web del m?n; per diure la vertat, el catal? es m?s molt interessant que l'espanyol i el franc?s. Personalment, vaig comen?ar a apprendre la llengua catalana en la etat de 15 anys; per? no la parlo amb fluϊdesa...

Com a m?nim, l'escrius molt b?. I've understood you perfectly!! :D


Si ets Catal?, em da molt plaer sentir aquestes paraules d' un natiu :D .

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1) Ayval b?? khii, khiivel b?? ay!
2) Мне некогда: Хлевагастиз
3) Exterminate lady-haters, now!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:08 am 
Smeric
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Pronominalització del complement indirecte "Pronominalization of the indirect object"

Formes pronominals en funció de complement indirecte
"Pronominal forms in function of indirect object"


Singular:
1st p. em
2nd p.et
3rd p. li

Plural:
1st p. ens
2nd p. us
3rd p. els

Reflexive: es


1) The 1st p. and 2nd p. forms always refer to persons:

Em publicaran el llibre de poemes "They'll publish my poems book", lit. "To me they'll publish the book of poems"


2) Forms of 3rd person:

2.1) The li form substitutes a singular, masculine or femenine, nominal syntagma.

He trobat en Joan i li he donat les claus "I've find John and I've give him the keys".

2.2) The pronoun els substitutes a plural, masculine or femenine, nominal syntagma.

Mes germanes volen que els ensenyi les fotografies "My sisters want me to show the photographies to them"

2.3) The pronoun es is the reflexive or reciprocal from.

Quan parla, s'escolta "When (he/she) speaks, he/she listens to himself/herself"
Ells es barallen "They fight at one another/themselves"


Observations:

In contact with the direct object forms (el, la, els, les) isn't used the li pronoun, but hi.

El + li = l'hi, not el li.
La + li = la hi, not la li
Els + li = els hi, not els li
Les + li = les hi, not les li

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Last edited by Izambri on Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:35 am 
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Hlewagastiz wrote:
Izopiru wrote:
Nikura wrote:
:wink: D?u n'hi do!!! Estic molt content de veure que el catal? t? un lloc d'honor dins aquest lloc web.


Jo estaria molt content de veure que el catal? tingu?s un lloc d'honor dins tots els llocs web del m?n; per diure la vertat, el catal? es m?s molt interessant que l'espanyol i el franc?s. Personalment, vaig comen?ar a apprendre la llengua catalana en la etat de 15 anys; per? no la parlo amb fluϊdesa...

Doncs mira, jo no s?c un natiu per? parlo el catal? amb fluidesa i igualment et puc dir que l'escrius molt b?. Jo m?s o menys vaig comen?ar a aprendre'l a la mateixa edat que tu. Per? et diria una cosa: encara que estigui literalment enamorat del catal?, no puc considerar que ?s m?s interessant que el franc?s. El franc?s el conec b? (s?c franc?s...): encara que no m'agradi comparar les lleng?es entre elles per? el franc?s tamb? ?s una llengua molt rica. Per contra, estic totalement d'acord amb el fet que el catal? ?s una llengua m?s rica i m?s maca que el castell? (bo, l'espanyol com el diuen...) hahahah.
PD: el meu lloc web tamb? ofereix una pla?a d'honor al catal? !!!
PPD: Izopiru, les teves explicacions sobre els pronoms s?n genials. M'estimo particularment aquest tema dels pronoms... Una altra cosa: molt b? que hagis posat el burret (o b?, l'ase que sempre prefereixo les paraules que s'assemblen m?s a l'occit?).
:mrgreen:
About Occitan language and dialects: some few web sites....
Learn Aranese dialect --> Excellent !!! (read it in English or in Catalan)
Occit? i Catal?/Occitan e Catalan
Occitania's web site
Occitanet
Institut d'Estudis Occitans

About Catalan dialects:
Diccionari de Lleidat?

Fins aviat !!! :D

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-> Quand les francophones se mettent à parler de conlangues...


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:26 am 
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Nikura wrote:
no m'agradi comparar les lleng?es entre elles per? el franc?s tamb? ?s una llengua molt rica.


Ni ? moi non plus! En tout cas, je ne voulais gu?re comparer le catalan avec le fran?ais de fa?on absolue. Il s'agissait d'une opinion - on pourrait dire "saveur" - personale. Je suis d'accord ? ce que le fran?ais est en effet une langue riche (sans doute la plus riche dans l'Europe); mais c'est un autre sujet.

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1) Ayval b?? khii, khiivel b?? ay!
2) Мне некогда: Хлевагастиз
3) Exterminate lady-haters, now!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:34 am 
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Hlewagastiz wrote:
Je suis d'accord ? ce que le fran?ais est en effet une langue riche (sans doute la plus riche dans l'Europe)

Je ne peux que confirmer tes dires.... Mais apr?s vient le catalan !!! :mrgreen:
Per? basta de parlar franc?s.
Izopiru! No s? si haur?s vist la pregunta que et vaig fer dins ephemera > your avatar. aix? del nom del burro catal?: "guar?" d'on v? aquesta paraula??? ?s molt maca per? mai no l'havia sentit enlloc...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:30 am 
Smeric
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Nikura wrote:
... Una altra cosa: molt b? que hagis posat el burret (o b?, l'ase que sempre prefereixo les paraules que s'assemblen m?s a l'occit?).
:mrgreen:

Ase ?s molt m?s correcte per designar l'animal, ja que burro fa m?s aviat refer?ncia a la persona que carrega el pes m?s feixuc; la paraula tamb? ?s emprada com a insult.

Sin?nims d'ase s?n ruc, ruquet, mula, mulassa, somera, guar?.... L'ase end?mic catal? s'anomena guar?, per? no en conec l'etimologia.

Quote:
About Catalan dialects:
Diccionari de Lleidat?

Oh, te n'has deixat un de molt important, de diccionari catal?: El Diccionari Alternatiu del Catal?!!! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:41 am 
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Quote:
Per? basta de parlar franc?s


"Basta" no existeix en catal? (amb aquest significat, ?s clar), s'hauria de dir "prou", per tant quedaria en "Per? prou de parlar en franc?s". :mrgreen:

La paraula "guar?" ve de "gor?", que segons el Diccionari catal?-valenci?-balear vol dir "Ase de llavor, destinat a cobrir les someres i eg?es (en espanyol ?s "gara??n").

El seu origen etimol?gic ve del llat? hisp?nic gauranem o guaranem, que Sant Isidor d?na com a sin?nim de ?cavall color de c?rvol? (?Cervinus est quem vulgo guaranem dicunt?, Isidori Etym. XII, i, 53). El diccionari catal? de Nebrija porta gor? amb el sentit de ?admissarius?, o sia, ?cavall de llavor?. Les variants eguar? i eugar? s?n segurament efecte de l'analogia de egua o euga.

Per m?s informaci? consulteu la p?gina web del Diccionari catal?-valenci?-balear a: http://dcvb.iecat.net/ :D

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