Welsh lessons.

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Egein
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Post by Egein »

Turtlehead wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Dewrad and I have said it before: Your biggest single problem is carrying around the default assumption that Welsh works like English. Unless you've been explicitly instructed otherwise, you assume that the syntax will be exactly the same. As you can see, it's not a safe assumption.
Celtic languages are meant to be the most grammatically different of the European languages that are in the indo-european family. Which celtic language would be the most difficult for an English speaker?
I would go for Irish because it is to my knowledge the most complete (in relation to all the elements of Old Irish and gaulish and proto goidelic and all those things). And because it has lenition and eclips abit everywhere, depending on your dialect.
[b][color=red]Nokinen poika[/b][/color]

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Post by aardwolf »

Egein wrote:
Turtlehead wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Dewrad and I have said it before: Your biggest single problem is carrying around the default assumption that Welsh works like English. Unless you've been explicitly instructed otherwise, you assume that the syntax will be exactly the same. As you can see, it's not a safe assumption.
Celtic languages are meant to be the most grammatically different of the European languages that are in the indo-european family. Which celtic language would be the most difficult for an English speaker?
I would go for Irish because it is to my knowledge the most complete (in relation to all the elements of Old Irish and gaulish and proto goidelic and all those things). And because it has lenition and eclips abit everywhere, depending on your dialect.
And don't forget the copula!

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Post by linguoboy »

Egein wrote:
Turtlehead wrote:Which celtic language would be the most difficult for an English speaker?
I would go for Irish because it is to my knowledge the most complete (in relation to all the elements of Old Irish and gaulish and proto goidelic and all those things).
I don't have any idea what you're saying here. What does Gaulish have to do with Insular Celtic?
And because it has lenition and eclips abit everywhere, depending on your dialect.
Same for Welsh--except where Irish has lenition and eclipsis, Welsh has the soft mutation, the nasal mutation, and the aspirate mutation. (Of course, in the modern spoken language, the latter two are in retreat, but the soft mutation--a.k.a. "lenition"--seems if anything to be spreading.)

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Post by Turtlehead »

linguoboy wrote:
And because it has lenition and eclips abit everywhere, depending on your dialect.
Same for Welsh--except where Irish has lenition and eclipsis, Welsh has the soft mutation, the nasal mutation, and the aspirate mutation. (Of course, in the modern spoken language, the latter two are in retreat, but the soft mutation--a.k.a. "lenition"--seems if anything to be spreading.)
I can only find two cases where Nasal Mutation occurs they are fy and yn-only when it takes the meaning 'in'. Are there any more cases?

There are a few more Aspirate mutation cases.

Soft mutation is probably over used :D . It is used for question forms, negative forms and has a strong conection with feminine nouns. Singular feminine nouns softly mutate after the article y, yr, 'r and singular feminine nouns cause a soft mutation to the adjectives that qualify it.

Y Ddraig goch - The Red Dragon
Y Dreigiau coch - The Red Dragons
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
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Post by Turtlehead »

Do pronouns ever suffer mutations?
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
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Post by linguoboy »

Turtlehead wrote:Do pronouns ever suffer mutations?
'Course. For instance:
neu "or" neu fi "or me" neu di "or you"
ac "and" a mi "and me" a thi "and you"

Personal pronouns are in a permanent state of mutation when circumfixed to nouns, e.g. dy weld di, not *ti. (Perhaps that should be in the singular, given that ti is practically speaking the only one susceptible to mutation. But I have heard of speakers with ngweld fi, even though ngweld i is far more common. What I don't think you'll find, however, is anyone with *ngweld mi.)

There's variation, of course--i fi, imi--but about the only ones which seem to consistently resist contact mutation are those which have been mutated, i.e. the interrogatives. Consider i ble "whither?", not *i fle, since ble is already a lenited form of pa "which" + lle "place". Similarly, neu, at, i beth, not *feth (but i bwy, i pwy, etc.).

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Post by Turtlehead »

Bympio

Holiad ar gyfer Dewrad:

How do you address your parents with chi or ti?
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
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Post by Ceresz »

I think it's ti... but I am not sure...
"An it harm none, do what thou wilt."

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Post by Turtlehead »

Ti is familiar and also singular and chi is plural and formal.
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
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Post by Lleu »

You would address your parents with chi. One parent would probably be ti. I address my dad in Spanish with t?, so I would assume it would be that way for Welsh as well.
agus tha mo chluasan eòlach air a’ mhac-talla fhathast / às dèidh dhomh dùsgadh
(mona nicleòid wagner, “fo shneachd”)

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Post by linguoboy »

Turtlehead wrote:Ti is familiar and also singular and chi is plural and formal.
Chi doesn't seem to get much use. Before my first trip to Wales, friends advised me to expect everyone to use ti with me. (I still started off addressing strangers with chi, though, because too much formality usually goes over better than too little.)

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Post by Joecool »

I understand the questions, but I don?t know how to answer them, so here are the exercises:

1) Is he reading? (darllen) Ydy o?n darllen?
2) He is sleeping (cysgu[/u]) Mae o?n yn cysgu.
3) Ioan is eating (bwyta) Mae Ioan yn bwyta
4) Is Rhodri snoring? (chwyrnu) Ydy Rhodri yn chwyrnu?
5) Deiniol is teaching. (addysgu) Mae Deiniol yn addysgu.
6) Eleri is driving. (gyrru) Mae Eleri yn gyrru
7) Is Angharad listening? (gwrando) Ydy Angharad yn gwrando?
8)Is Pharazon masturbating? (godro) Ydy Pharzon yn godro?
9) Iorwerth is talking crap. (malu cachu) Mae Iorwerth yn malu cachu.
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Post by linguoboy »

Joecool wrote:I understand the questions, but I don?t know how to answer them, so here are the exercises:
First perfect score!

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Post by Dewrad »

Turtlehead wrote:Bympio

Holiad ar gyfer Dewrad:

How do you address your parents with chi or ti?
A perfect example where a comma would disambiguate, there. Well done that man.

I use ti with pretty much everyone except doctors, policemen, men of the cloth and politicians (not that I speak to many MPs). Of course, if there's more than one person and I'm addressing them all it's chi.

If a random stranger came up to me and started chi-ing me, I'd look at them funny but I'd probably reply in kind.
Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
Salmoneus wrote:(NB Dewrad is behaving like an adult - a petty, sarcastic and uncharitable adult, admittedly, but none the less note the infinitely higher quality of flame)

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Post by Turtlehead »

Dewrad wrote:If a random stranger came up to me and started chi-ing me, I'd look at them funny but I'd probably reply in kind.
That made me laugh. I will put it in the quotes thread. Thanks for answering my question. I have been meaning to ask it for some time now. Beth am dy nain?
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
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Post by Turtlehead »

Bympio neu fwmpio

Holiad:

Sut wyt ti'n dweud 'look at' yng Nghymraeg? Ydy o'n 'edrych fel' neu nid?
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
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Post by linguoboy »

Turtlehead wrote:Sut wyt ti'n dweud 'look at' yng Nghymraeg? Ydy o'n 'edrych fel' neu nid?
Beth? Fel = "like, as". "Look at" = edrych ar.

Edrychwch ar fy ngweithiau, chi cedyrn, ac anobeithiwch!

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Post by Turtlehead »

linguoboy wrote:
Turtlehead wrote:Sut wyt ti'n dweud 'look at' yng Nghymraeg? Ydy o'n 'edrych fel' neu nid?
Beth? Fel = "like, as". "Look at" = edrych ar.

Edrychwch ar fy ngweithiau, chi cedyrn, ac anobeithiwch!
Mae'n ddrwg 'da fi. Dylwn i bod wedi dweud, Sut wyt ti'n dweud 'look like' yng Nghymraeg? Ydy o'n 'edrych fel' neu nid?

Ti'n edrych fel i?r. Ydy honna'n da?
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
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Post by linguoboy »

Turtlehead wrote:Mae'n ddrwg 'da fi. Dylwn i bod wedi dweud, Sut wyt ti'n dweud 'look like' yng Nghymraeg? Ydy o'n 'edrych fel' neu nid?

Ti'n edrych fel i?r. Ydy honna'n da?
Byddwn i'n deud "Ti'n edrych yn debyg i i?r". Byddwn i'n dehongli dy frawddeg fel "Ti'n edrych (ar bethau) fel byddai i?r yn edrych (ar bethau)."

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Post by Turtlehead »

linguoboy wrote:
Turtlehead wrote:Mae'n ddrwg 'da fi. Dylwn i bod wedi dweud, Sut wyt ti'n dweud 'look like' yng Nghymraeg? Ydy o'n 'edrych fel' neu nid?

Ti'n edrych fel i?r. Ydy honna'n da?
Byddwn i'n deud "Ti'n edrych yn debyg i i?r". Byddwn i'n dehongli dy frawddeg fel "Ti'n edrych (ar bethau) fel byddai i?r yn edrych (ar bethau)."
Felly, mae o'n 'yn debyg i' ac nid 'fel'. Diolch. Rydw i wedi bod meddwl amdano o i dalm nawr.
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
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Post by Turtlehead »

Holiad arnoch chi cyfer:

Wyt ti'n meddwl y gair 'ma - Dysglochwr - gallu deallodd?
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
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Post by linguoboy »

Turtlehead wrote:Wyt ti'n meddwl y gair 'ma - Dysglochwr - gallu deallodd?
Wrtha i mae e'n deud dim byd. Un sy'n analluogi clociau?

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Post by Turtlehead »

Dylai o dweud 'dishwasher', ond dydw i ddim yn gwybod pa mor i'w ddweud o yng Nghymraeg.
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
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Post by linguoboy »

Turtlehead wrote:Dylai o dweud 'dishwasher', ond dydw i ddim yn gwybod pa mor i'w ddweud o yng Nghymraeg.
Dyn neu beiriant? Mae'r dyn yn golchwr llestri, ond mae'r arall yn peiriant golchi llestri.

Pan rw i'n edrych ar "ddysglochwr", rw i'n gweld "dysg" + "llochwr" yn hytrach na "dysgl" + "golchwr". (Os allet ti sillafu'r geiriau yn gywir, byddai hyn yn fuddiol.)

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Post by Turtlehead »

linguoboy wrote:
Turtlehead wrote:Dylai o dweud 'dishwasher', ond dydw i ddim yn gwybod pa mor i'w ddweud o yng Nghymraeg.
Dyn neu beiriant? Mae'r dyn yn golchwr llestri, ond mae'r arall yn peiriant golchi llestri.

Pan rw i'n edrych ar "ddysglochwr", rw i'n gweld "dysg" + "llochwr" yn hytrach na "dysgl" + "golchwr". (Os allet ti sillafu'r geiriau yn gywir, byddai hyn yn fuddiol.)
Mae'n ddrwg 'da fi. Dylwn i fod wedi gwirio fy sillafiad i gyn postiais i'r post. Mae golchwr llestri'n ffitio fy nysgrifiad i. Bues i anghofio'r el.

Beth am hwn? Cymdeithas golchwr llestri simach piws(neu gochlas).

Os ti'n ateb, os gweli di'n dda dwyt ti ddim i'n ei ddweud o yn Saesneg. Jyst dweud 'ydy' neu 'nac ydy'. Diolch.
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
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