Welsh lessons.

The best topics from Languages & Linguistics, kept on a permanent basis.
User avatar
marconatrix
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:29 pm
Location: Kernow
Contact:

Post by marconatrix »

pwy is 'who', the question refers to a person. All the others have 'what'.

Dewrad, ble ydw i wedi gweld y defnydd 'ma, tybed?? :wink:
Kyn nag ov den skentel pur ...

User avatar
Přemysl
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:28 pm
Location: Quinnehtkqut

Post by Přemysl »

Ea, Brian Distin ov vy. Trigys ov yn Statys Unys. I've recently been bitten by the Cornish bug but I have no clue what books or cds are considered decent for beginners. Any suggestions? You can see I obviously need help :)

The hard part is the orthography; each lesson I find spells half the words differently. Unfortunately at this point I only know things like "Pinta korev marpleg", "Sewena", and "Ple'ma an bysva?" in that order :) Consonant mutation confuses me to no end. Also, is this formed even remotely correct: "Sowsnek os'ta"?

User avatar
schwhatever
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:04 pm
Location: NorCal
Contact:

Post by schwhatever »

marconatrix wrote:pwy is 'who', the question refers to a person. All the others have 'what'.
Diolch! :D
Dewrad, ble ydw i wedi gweld y defnydd 'ma, tybed?? :wink:
Wyt ti'n bwriadu: "Oes mwy gwers?" Eithr dwi'n union iawn... :roll:
[quote="Jar Jar Binks"]Now, by making just a few small changes, we prettify the orthography for happier socialist tomorrow![/quote][quote="Xonen"]^ WHS. Except for the log thing and the Andean panpipers.[/quote]

User avatar
James0289
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:32 pm
Location: The SE of the East Midlands

Post by James0289 »

I'd just like to point out I'm jealous of all who speak Welsh and Cornish to a certain extent. I can only make the simplest of sentences (the most useful being "Dw i ddim yn deall" and "Ny wonn konvedhes"!) so to see people having a full conversation in them is really good to see!
If only I had the time to learn them properly... :(

User avatar
Dewrad
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 1040
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 9:02 pm

Post by Dewrad »

Prmysl wrote:Ea, Brian Distin ov vy. Trigys ov yn Statys Unys. I've recently been bitten by the Cornish bug but I have no clue what books or cds are considered decent for beginners. Any suggestions? You can see I obviously need help :)
Best advice at the moment: wait until after the 14th of October. That's when we find out what the official orthography will be (maybe, perhaps), and then make a decision based on that.
The hard part is the orthography
Ain't that the truth. :roll:
Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
Salmoneus wrote:(NB Dewrad is behaving like an adult - a petty, sarcastic and uncharitable adult, admittedly, but none the less note the infinitely higher quality of flame)

User avatar
Dewrad
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 1040
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 9:02 pm

Post by Dewrad »

marconatrix wrote:Dewrad, ble ydw i wedi gweld y defnydd 'ma, tybed?? :wink:
Wn i ddim! Dw i'n gwadu popeth!
Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
Salmoneus wrote:(NB Dewrad is behaving like an adult - a petty, sarcastic and uncharitable adult, admittedly, but none the less note the infinitely higher quality of flame)

julianallees
Niš
Niš
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:33 pm
Location: Australia

Post by julianallees »

Welsh, I find, is such a different and unusual language. I have this Language Learning CD in which is made by Eureka which just so happens to have the language on it.
I have listened to the language many times, and boy, it is such an unusual language. They have like heaps of frictions and many letters in which have an 'Expected' sound make such a different sound in Welsh, eg. the 'dd'.

Anyway, I just have a question. I can't remember what the word was exactly, but it was something like w'y or something. The point is, I have noticed in my many visits to the Welsh section in that CD, that when I look at even the most simple Welsh Sentence they use that word (Despite the fact that I can't remember what is was) in which when I find a definition for it, it has no definition it just has to be there. Does anyone know what I mean, it's a word, in which has to be there, but has not definition. Well anyway, my question is, if you know what this "person" is talking about, lol, could you please let me know what the 'Undefined' words are actually used for.

Thanks heaps, and I hope I haven't confused anyone.

Yours,

julianallees

3rd April, 2008 12:21pm :D :!: :?:
Paradise is awaiting you........

User avatar
Åge Kruger
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:33 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Post by Åge Kruger »

julianallees wrote:could you please let me know what the 'Undefined' words are actually used for.
Shibboleth. Alternatively, grammatical function. I'll bet.
[quote="Soviet Russia"]If you can't join them, beat them.[/quote]

User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Post by linguoboy »

julianallees wrote:Anyway, I just have a question. I can't remember what the word was exactly, but it was something like w'y or something. The point is, I have noticed in my many visits to the Welsh section in that CD, that when I look at even the most simple Welsh Sentence they use that word (Despite the fact that I can't remember what is was) in which when I find a definition for it, it has no definition it just has to be there. Does anyone know what I mean, it's a word, in which has to be there, but has not definition. Well anyway, my question is, if you know what this "person" is talking about, lol, could you please let me know what the 'Undefined' words are actually used for.
It's impossible to answer your question without any examples to go by. My guess is that this would be a first person present indicative of the verb bod "to be", which variously shows up as dw i, rw i, rwy or w i depending on the dialect. If, by chance, you have the word backwards and it is really yw, then this is a present tense form of the copula. You can say either Dw/Rw/W i'n Gymro or Cymro yw i for "I am a Welshman".

Turtlehead
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 11:06 pm
Location: Aotearoa

Post by Turtlehead »

Dewrad wrote:
Prmysl wrote:Ea, Brian Distin ov vy. Trigys ov yn Statys Unys. I've recently been bitten by the Cornish bug but I have no clue what books or cds are considered decent for beginners. Any suggestions? You can see I obviously need help :)
Best advice at the moment: wait until after the 14th of October. That's when we find out what the official orthography will be (maybe, perhaps), and then make a decision based on that.
Beth ydy orgraff swyddogol iaith cernow nawr?
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
TVWTLEHEAΔ

User avatar
Dewrad
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 1040
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 9:02 pm

Post by Dewrad »

Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
Salmoneus wrote:(NB Dewrad is behaving like an adult - a petty, sarcastic and uncharitable adult, admittedly, but none the less note the infinitely higher quality of flame)

Turtlehead
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 11:06 pm
Location: Aotearoa

Post by Turtlehead »

Sut mae? Ydy rhywun eisiau dechrau y thred 'ma eto?
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
TVWTLEHEAΔ

User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Post by linguoboy »

Efallai y byddai'n well inni ddechrau edau newydd yn Languages and Linguistics?

User avatar
Tengado
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:12 am
Location: Shenyang, China

Post by Tengado »

julianallees wrote:Anyway, I just have a question. I can't remember what the word was exactly, but it was something like w'y or something. The point is, I have noticed in my many visits to the Welsh section in that CD, that when I look at even the most simple Welsh Sentence they use that word (Despite the fact that I can't remember what is was) in which when I find a definition for it, it has no definition it just has to be there. Does anyone know what I mean, it's a word, in which has to be there, but has not definition. Well anyway, my question is, if you know what this "person" is talking about, lol, could you please let me know what the 'Undefined' words are actually used for.
yn?
In Lesson One, Dewrad wrote:As in English the Welsh continuous form uses a form of the auxiliary verb to be with the present participle. The present participle in English is formed by adding ?ing. In Welsh, however, the verb noun, from which the present participle is formed, keeps its ending but is preceded by the particle yn, which becomes 'n when following a vowel.

So, to break the sentence down into its constituent parts, we have:

Mae - there is, the form of "to be" used in declarative sentences.
o - he, the subject pronoun.
yn - a particle, which alone does not mean anything (c.f. however archaic English I am a-speaking)
siarad - speaking, the berfenw verbnoun. Celtic languages lack an infinitive, so the verbnoun is both the basic form and also the citation form.
Cymraeg - Welsh, the object of the sentence.

So, literally There is he a-speaking Welsh, which is how Welsh expresses the present tense.
- "But this can be stopped."
- "No, I came all this way to show you this because nothing can be done. Because I like the way your pupils dilate in the presence of total planetary Armageddon.
Yes, it can be stopped."

Turtlehead
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 11:06 pm
Location: Aotearoa

Post by Turtlehead »

Sut wyt ti'n pronounce hyn 'ffrindiau' ?

/fri:ndZai:/ neu /frindi:yai:/
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
TVWTLEHEAΔ

User avatar
Skomakar'n
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1273
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:05 pm

Post by Skomakar'n »

1. Ydy o'n darllen?
2. Mae o'n cysgu
3. Mae Ioan yn bwyta.
4. Ydy Rhodri yn chwyrnu?
5. Mae Deiniol yn addysgu.
6. Mae Eleri yn gyrru.
7. Ydy Angharad yn gwrando?
8. Ydy Pharazon yn godro?
9. Mae Iorweth yn malu cachu.


Am I right? x3

Why do you use yn and not 'n when the word ends in -i?

User avatar
Přemysl
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:28 pm
Location: Quinnehtkqut

Post by Přemysl »

Okay I think something might have clicked. Do you think Welsh yn might be related to Cornish yn? As in "He is in the act of speaking".

User avatar
Skomakar'n
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1273
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:05 pm

Post by Skomakar'n »

Prmysl wrote:Okay I think something might have clicked. Do you think Welsh yn might be related to Cornish yn? As in "He is in the act of speaking".
Well, I guess something like "he is in speak" would be the literal translation of "mae o'n siarad".

User avatar
Twpsyn Pentref
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:24 am
Location: that other Cambridge

Post by Twpsyn Pentref »

Skomakar'n wrote:
Prmysl wrote:Okay I think something might have clicked. Do you think Welsh yn might be related to Cornish yn? As in "He is in the act of speaking".
Well, I guess something like "he is in speak" would be the literal translation of "mae o'n siarad".
No. Yn 'in' and yn [grammatical particle] are different words.
So take this body at sunset to the great stream whose pulses start in the blue hills, and let these ashes drift from the Long Bridge where only a late gull breaks that deep and populous grave.

User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Post by linguoboy »

Twpsyn Pentref wrote:No. Yn 'in' and yn [grammatical particle] are different words.
Synchronically that's unquestionably the case, but if it's true diachronically as well, then what is the source of linking-yn?

User avatar
Twpsyn Pentref
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:24 am
Location: that other Cambridge

Post by Twpsyn Pentref »

linguoboy wrote:
Twpsyn Pentref wrote:No. Yn 'in' and yn [grammatical particle] are different words.
Synchronically that's unquestionably the case, but if it's true diachronically as well, then what is the source of linking-yn?
I would like to know this too!
So take this body at sunset to the great stream whose pulses start in the blue hills, and let these ashes drift from the Long Bridge where only a late gull breaks that deep and populous grave.

User avatar
Dewrad
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 1040
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 9:02 pm

Post by Dewrad »

Children, children. Should you really like to know, PM me and I'll email you a PDF which offers an explanation.
Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
Salmoneus wrote:(NB Dewrad is behaving like an adult - a petty, sarcastic and uncharitable adult, admittedly, but none the less note the infinitely higher quality of flame)

Turtlehead
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 11:06 pm
Location: Aotearoa

Re:

Post by Turtlehead »

Twpsyn Pentref wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:
Prmysl wrote:Okay I think something might have clicked. Do you think Welsh yn might be related to Cornish yn? As in "He is in the act of speaking".
Well, I guess something like "he is in speak" would be the literal translation of "mae o'n siarad".
No. Yn 'in' and yn [grammatical particle] are different words.
Though for other phrases the 'yn' can be substituted with other prepositions.
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
TVWTLEHEAΔ

User avatar
Gulliver
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 2:58 pm
Location: The West Country
Contact:

Re: Welsh lessons.

Post by Gulliver »

1. Cymry ydy gorgynys yng ngorllewin Prydain.
2. Ioan ydy Crymro.
3. Mae e'n bwy yng Nghymru.
4. Saesneg ydy mamiath Ioan.
5. Mae e'n mynd i ddosbarth i ddyugu Cymraeg.
6. Achos fod e Cymro.

1. Yyd e'n darllen?
2. Mae e'n cysdu.
3. Mae Ioan yn bwyta.
4. Ydy Rhodri yn chwyrnu.
5. Mae Deiniol yn addysgu.
6. Mae Eleri yn gyrri.
7. Ydy Angharad yn gwrando?
8. Ydy Pharazon yn godro?
9. Mae Iorwerth yn malu cachu.


I've actually studied Welsh before a bit (as has everyone here, I should imagine) and "officially" had to use Welsh "as a living language" when I worked in a school in Wales. Literally 5 pupils spoke Welsh, as it was in a really English-speaking area, but it's the thought that counts...

User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Re: Welsh lessons.

Post by linguoboy »

Gulliver wrote:I've actually studied Welsh before a bit (as has everyone here, I should imagine) and "officially" had to use Welsh "as a living language" when I worked in a school in Wales. Literally 5 pupils spoke Welsh, as it was in a really English-speaking area, but it's the thought that counts...
Mind your spelling! You've written "ddyugu", "cysdu", and "addysgu". Only one of these is actually a Welsh word.

Post Reply