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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:01 pm 
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1 -- -Klaivas-
I have a feeling that G?idhlig is easier than Gaeilge.

2 -- Linguoboy:
It is damn irregular! But not when you look at the bigger picture. cf:
Chonaic t? ?. ~ "You saw her."
An bhfaca t? ?? ~ "Did you see her?"
Usually the "question" form of the past tense is used in relative clauses like the one above. Here's another example using d?an "to do":

Rinne m? an obair. ~ "I did the work."
An ndearna t? an obair? ~ "Did you do the work?"

Sin an fear a rinne an obair. ~ "That's the man who did the work."
Sin an fear a ndearna a mhac an obair. ~ "That's the man whose son did the work.

3 -- Qawantaqari:
Irish has non-productive (is that the term?) nominalisers. There are over a dozen I'd say, and each one has to be learnt by rote. Eg:
teach -> teacher -- m?in -> m?inteoir
run -> runner -- rith -> reatha?, irregular-ish
The general consensus is if you don't know it, just put -(e)oir or -d(e)oir after the verb.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:42 pm 
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on the side, here is a small text I wrote because i was bored. Care to correct?
(Don't mind what I say. It's an answer to another thing I had writen)

:

Go raibh maith agat, a Dhelboy.
T? a fhios agam gurbh ? m'iarracht a rinne m? ag Gaeilge go dona go leor, agus t? freisin a fhios agam go bhfuil an ceann seo chomh go dona. Ach is mian liom an Ghaeilge a chleachtadh, fi? m? bh?m go hiond?ill uaf?sach.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:05 pm 
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Egein wrote:
Go raibh maith agat, a Dhelboy.
T? a fhios agam gurbh ? m'iarracht a rinne m? ag Gaeilge go dona go leor,

T? a fhios agam go raibh an iarracht a rinne m? ag [labhairt na] Gaeilge dona go leor
Quote:
agus t? freisin a fhios agam

"Freisin" goes at the end of a clause; it never comes between things like "t? a ..." -> agus t? a fhios agam freisin
Quote:
go bhfuil an ceann seo chomh go dona.

no need for "go" here becuase of "chomh".
Quote:
Ach is mian liom an Ghaeilge a chleachtadh,

"Is maith liom" maybe? "Is mian liom" means "I would like like to", sort of sounds like asking a question. Like: "is mian liom dul chuig an siopa" (I would like to go to the shop) is essentially interchangeable with "An bhfuil cead agam dul chuig an siopa".
Quote:
fi? m? bh?m go hiond?ill uaf?sach.

"fi? m? bh?m uaf?sach go hiond?il." Actually, it's more natural to use "go minic" instead of "go hiond?il", but it's fine nonetheless.

Cool to see you getting on so well with the Irish. The above were mostly minor mistakes that people still make in secondary school over here :roll: :mrgreen: Thar barr!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:22 pm 
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Posession in Irish

Irish is known for it's lack of a verb "to have" or similar. Instead, to convey the notion of posession, you say that something is at something else. "At" in Irish is ag /Eg/. [I know that the verb b? hasn't been covered here yet, but hey!] Eg:
T? m?la ag Aisling. ~ "Aisling has a bag."
Bh? buid?al uisce ag Eoin. ~ "Eoin had a bottle of water."
Beidh scr?d? ag Br?na am?rach. ~ "Brona will have a test tomorrow."
Bh?odh guth iontach ag Caitr?ona. ~ "Caitr?ona used to have a great voice."

That's all well and good. But what if you want to use a pronoun? This is where personal pronouns come in, another trait of Irish. Here they are:
Code:
at me       agam
at you[sg]  agat
at him      aige    /Eg@/
at her      aici    /Ec@/
at us       againn
at you[pl]  agaibh
at them     acu

Examples using the above:
T? cat agam. ~ "I have a cat."
Bh? peann agat. ~ "You had a pen."
Bh?odh an idirl?on aige. ~ "He used to have the internet."
N?l buachaill-cara aici. ~ "She doesn't have a boyfriend."
Beidh f?asta againn! ~ "We'll have a party!"
An bhfuil rang agaibh anois? ~ "Do yous have a class now?"
T? am saor acu. ~ "They've got free time."
<hr>

Excersises!

Translate the following; vocabular is below:
"I have a computer."
"Fiachra doesn't have a brother."
"She had ?10."
"We've got maths now."
"Do you have a cigarette?"

Also, try to make your own sentences, even if they sound stilted.

computer : r?omhaire
not be : n?l
brother : dearth?ir
?10 : deich euro
maths : mata
now : anois
to be (question) : an bhfuil?
cigarette : toit?n


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:55 pm 
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aardwolf wrote:
That's all well and good. But what if you want to use a pronoun? This is where personal pronouns come in, another trait of Irish.

If you'll allow a quibble: I would call these inflected prepositions, since the conventional definition of personal pronouns makes them a feature of virtually every natlang I know. (The only possible exception which leaps to mind is Japanese.)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:22 pm 
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linguoboy wrote:
aardwolf wrote:
That's all well and good. But what if you want to use a pronoun? This is where personal pronouns come in, another trait of Irish.

If you'll allow a quibble: I would call these inflected prepositions, since the conventional definition of personal pronouns makes them a feature of virtually every natlang I know. (The only possible exception which leaps to mind is Japanese.)

Goddammit! I meant pronominal prepositions. Or personal prepositions. Now I'm confused!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:12 pm 
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aardwolf wrote:
Goddammit!

How are we going to learn the best and most colourful Irish if you persist in swearing in English? Labhair Gaeilge linn!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:21 pm 
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? a shiarcais, n? b? do mo chr? a mhac an diabhail!

EDIT: Those who want IRL lessons in Irish might want to check out: http://www.daltai.com/classes.htm


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:35 pm 
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Iarracht eile:

Mar chuir m? t?s leis dul ar scoil nua, bh? tuirse orm seachtain seo. Ach t? scoil nua seo fionnuar. T?ann mo chairde ar scoil seo, agus t? m?r?n spraoi agam a bheith le mo chairde, mar chr?och, mar n? raibh aon mo chard ar bith ar mo scoil sean. N? raibh spraoi ar bith ann, riamh i mo aonar. Ar a bharr sin ba an scoil sean ? i mB?arla.
Ach is maith liom anois a bheith a dul ansin.


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Tried some new things. Don't know if it's good. You tell me :)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:58 am 
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Cen canuint an bhfuil tu ag teagasc? Cen canuint a leabhair tu? Labhair me Gaelinn na Mumhan mar taim i mo chonai i gCathar Chorcai. Nil fhios agam conas a dheanamh na fadai.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:22 pm 
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Egein wrote:
Mar chuir m? t?s leis dul ar scoil nua, bh? tuirse orm seachtain seo.

Those clauses should reverse order to sound more natural. When you say "this week", you must include the article aswell. For "I started going to a new school", it sounds more natural to say "chuir m? t?s le scoil nua", i.e. without the verb "to go". As a side note, you don't "go" to school in Irish, you "freastal ar scoil".
Bh? tuirse orm an tseachtain seo, mar chuir m? t?s le scoil nua.

Quote:
Ach t? scoil nua seo fionnuar.

I'll assume you mean "cool" as in "really good/laid back, etc" as opposed to "lukewarm"! "Fionnuar" is never used in the sense of the former; "ar fheabhas" is more suitable, and more natural.
Ach t? an scoil seo ar fheabhas.

Quote:
T?ann mo chairde ar scoil seo,

See above on "freastal" and how to say "this".
Freastla?onn mo chairde ar an scoil seo,

Quote:
agus t? m?r?n spraoi agam a bheith le mo chairde,

I'm not sure if this is meant to be "I enjoy being with my friends", or "I like hanging out with my friends", or "I have lots of fun being with my friends" (probably the latter). "Spraoi" is the kind of playing that babies and toddlers do. Actually, this would be a good place to use the word "craic". The most natural thing to say would be just:
agus b?onn craic agam le mo chairde,

Quote:
mar chr?och,

I don't understand what you mean by this. It'd be translated as "finally ...", but I don't think that this is what you meant.

Quote:
mar n? raibh aon mo chard ar bith ar mo scoil sean.

"Any of" can be hard to translate. For the above, you'd say "any person of ...". Also, note the "freastal". "Sean" is one of the few adjectives that always comes before the noun.
mar n?or fhreastal duine de mo chairde ar mo shean-scoil.

Quote:
N? raibh spraoi ar bith ann, riamh i mo aonar.

"It wasn't any fun" is an idiom that doesn't translate well to Irish; you're better off saying "I didn't enjoy" or similar.
N?or thaitin s? liom bheith i m'aonar.

Quote:
Ar a bharr sin ba an scoil sean ? i mB?arla.

"On top of that" is "chomh maith le sin", a set phrase. Also, the syntax here is a bit skewed.
Chomh maith le sin, ba scoil Bh?arla ? an tsean-scoil.

Quote:
Ach is maith liom anois a bheith ag dul ansin.

"Ag" instead of "a".



Wow! Despite the corrections, again this is really good. I'm not meesing when I say that some people in my class make these mistakes too; that's how good it is!

C? chomh fada is at? t? ag foghlaim na Gaeilge? An bhfuil cara n? gaol leat a bhfuil Gaeilge acu? Muna bhfuil, is deacair dom chreidi?int nach ? ?ire t?! Agus conas ar thosaigh t? suim a bhaint as an teanga? T? a fhios agam nach bhfuil c?il air sa domhain, go h?irithe i Montr?al! An as leabhar n? tr?n idirl?on at? s? ? fhoghlaim agat?
You mightn't have understood all that, but nevertheless you'll probably benefit from seeing some "real-life" Irish!!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:18 pm 
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Thanks!
For sure I have alot of familiarizing to do with Irish. I've only really been at it for a month or so.

As for your little text. I understand the begining, pretty much until "nach bhfuil c?il air sa domhain...etc."

I've been learning irish, as I just said, for more or less one month. I had been gathering some info about it hence and thither, reading about pronounciation. I must say I have been slowing myself down alot, volontairly, because I'm really afraid of all the interest I have for irish! I feel like if I went 100% into Irish, I would be giving up everything! I'm really clicking with the language! It's quite amazing!

And no, I don't know anyone who speaks irish. I'm only 1/16th irish, so the irish is far away, if there ever was any in my family.

Infact I hadn't heard spoken irish at all before just a few days ago. I can't say I think it's a particularly beautiful sounding language (I'll probably grow to like it). It's unconventional and has a lot of fricatives (which I don't like...), but I don't care because it's irish. I watched a movie in irish the other day (Yu ming is ainm dom) and I understood quite alot (an bhfuil t?sa ag labhair liomsa?, hihi).

I have some questions about what you wrote.

I understand that "muna" is "um+na", but I don't understand it in the context.

I don't really understand "Agus conas ar thosaigh t? suim a bhaint as an teanga? ". I would think it is "And how did you start to have interest for the language?". The a bhaint is abit confusing. I don't understand.

And then I just don't understand:
T? a fhios agam nach bhfuil c?il air sa domhain, go h?irithe i Montr?al! An as leabhar n? tr?n idirl?on at? s? ? fhoghlaim agat?

I know that there isn't (renown/quality?) (from the world), particularly in Montreal! Is it from a book or by (idirl?on?) that you have..(??).

Thanks again!

Sl?n leat!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:16 pm 
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More Irish lessons! It seems like Celtic languages always get some extra attention around Voom election season. My Oxford Irish Dictionary came in the mail a few days ago, so I'll try my hand at a paragraph when I can spare a moment.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:53 am 
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Egein wrote:
... I watched a movie in irish the other day (Yu ming is ainm dom) and I understood quite alot (an bhfuil t?sa ag labhair liomsa?, hihi)...

This film's fantastic! It won several awards at some award-thingy when it was released. I think it sums up quite well the attitude towards Irish here in Ireland.
Quote:
I understand that "muna" is "um+na", but I don't understand it in the context.

Muna is just a negative m?, so it means "if not". In the case above, "muna bhfuil [t?]", it means "if you're not".

Quote:
I don't really understand "Agus conas ar thosaigh t? suim a bhaint as an teanga? ". I would think it is "And how did you start to have interest for the language?". The a bhaint is abit confusing. I don't understand.

Hmm. "A bhaint" is quite idiomatic here. A direct translation would be "And how did you start [b]to obtain interest from[b] the language". It sounds odd in English, but it's very common in Irish. "Bain" can also mean "reach", as in "Bhaineamar Baile ?tha Cliath amach ar?ir", "We reached (arrived at) Dublin yesterday".

Quote:
And then I just don't understand:
T? a fhios agam nach bhfuil c?il air sa domhain, go h?irithe i Montr?al!

"C?il" means "fame", so the above would be, "I know that it's not well known in the world ...".

Quote:
An as leabhar n? tr?n idirl?on at? s? ? fhoghlaim agat? ...
Is it from a book or by (idirl?on?) that you have..(??).

Ah, I thought the above might be too taxing. The first word there "an" isn't the definite article, but the question form of the copula in the present tense. I'll break it down, bit by bit:
An as leabhar ~ "Is [it] from a book"
n? tr?n idirl?on ~ "or via the internet"
at? s? ? fhoghlaim agat? ~ "that it is being learnt by you."
=
"Are you learning it from a book or the internet?"
This is really advanced syntax, and don't worry if you don't get it.

<hr>

BTW, if anybody wants to see "Yu Ming is Ainm Dom" (My name is Yu Ming), its here: http://www.atomfilms.com/af/content/yu_ming


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:02 am 
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aardwolf wrote:
Egein wrote:
... I watched a movie in irish the other day (Yu ming is ainm dom) and I understood quite alot (an bhfuil t?sa ag labhair liomsa?, hihi)...

This film's fantastic! It won several awards at some award-thingy when it was released. I think it sums up quite well the attitude towards Irish here in Ireland.

Chonaic me e ar TG4. Bhi se an-mhaith :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:36 pm 
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vlaran of verduria wrote:
Cen canuint an bhfuil tu ag teagasc? Cen canuint a leabhair tu? Labhair me Gaelinn na Mumhan mar taim i mo chonai i gCathar Chorcai. Nil fhios agam conas a dheanamh na fadai.

Sorry, I forgot to answer this! :oops: I suppose I'm teaching standard Irish. It's what's taught to me in school, and I've never been to the Gaeltacht, so I'd be no authority on the regional dialects.

T? br?n orm, rinne m? dearmad do cheist a fhreagairt! :oops: Is d?cha go bhfuil m? ag m?ineadh Gaeilge caighde?nach. 'S? sin a mh?intear dom ar scoil, agus n? raibh m? riamh sa Ghaeltacht; n?l m?r?n ar eolas agam maidir leis na can?int? r?igi?nacha.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:22 pm 
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aardwolf wrote:
vlaran of verduria wrote:
Cen canuint an bhfuil tu ag teagasc? Cen canuint a leabhair tu? Labhair me Gaelinn na Mumhan mar taim i mo chonai i gCathar Chorcai. Nil fhios agam conas a dheanamh na fadai.

Sorry, I forgot to answer this! :oops: I suppose I'm teaching standard Irish. It's what's taught to me in school, and I've never been to the Gaeltacht, so I'd be no authority on the regional dialects.

T? br?n orm, rinne m? dearmad do cheist a fhreagairt! :oops: Is d?cha go bhfuil m? ag m?ineadh Gaeilge caighde?nach. 'S? sin a mh?intear dom ar scoil, agus n? raibh m? riamh sa Ghaeltacht; n?l m?r?n ar eolas agam maidir leis na can?int? r?igi?nacha.

Conas a deireann tu "How are you?" "I am" and "I did not"
Deirim: 'Conas a ta tu?' 'Taim', agus 'nior dhein me'
Ta siad chupla shamplai ar an canuint mumhaineach.
Conas a foghraionn tu an fhocal dearmad? I gCuige Mumhan ni fhoghraimid an 'm'
Measaim, ta gach cainteoir Gaeilge ag caint canuint amhain. Ni obraionn and Gaeilge caighdeanach romhaith.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:10 pm 
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Conas at? t?; T?im; N? dhearna m?.
C?n f?th a gceapann t? nach n-oibr?onn an Ghaeilge caighde?nach r?-mhaith? ?s?idim ? gach l?, agus t? s? ag obair go bre? domsa! S?lim go mbraitheann s? ar an gcan?int a bhfoghlaim?tear ? agus t? ?g; t?imse go bre? leis an gcaighde?n oifigi?il.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:09 pm 
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aardwolf wrote:
Egein wrote:
... I watched a movie in irish the other day (Yu ming is ainm dom) and I understood quite alot (an bhfuil t?sa ag labhair liomsa?, hihi)...

This film's fantastic! It won several awards at some award-thingy when it was released. I think it sums up quite well the attitude towards Irish here in Ireland.
Quote:
I understand that "muna" is "um+na", but I don't understand it in the context.

Muna is just a negative m?, so it means "if not". In the case above, "muna bhfuil [t?]", it means "if you're not".

Quote:
I don't really understand "Agus conas ar thosaigh t? suim a bhaint as an teanga? ". I would think it is "And how did you start to have interest for the language?". The a bhaint is abit confusing. I don't understand.

Hmm. "A bhaint" is quite idiomatic here. A direct translation would be "And how did you start [b]to obtain interest from[b] the language". It sounds odd in English, but it's very common in Irish. "Bain" can also mean "reach", as in "Bhaineamar Baile ?tha Cliath amach ar?ir", "We reached (arrived at) Dublin yesterday".

Quote:
And then I just don't understand:
T? a fhios agam nach bhfuil c?il air sa domhain, go h?irithe i Montr?al!

"C?il" means "fame", so the above would be, "I know that it's not well known in the world ...".

Quote:
An as leabhar n? tr?n idirl?on at? s? ? fhoghlaim agat? ...
Is it from a book or by (idirl?on?) that you have..(??).

Ah, I thought the above might be too taxing. The first word there "an" isn't the definite article, but the question form of the copula in the present tense. I'll break it down, bit by bit:
An as leabhar ~ "Is [it] from a book"
n? tr?n idirl?on ~ "or via the internet"
at? s? ? fhoghlaim agat? ~ "that it is being learnt by you."
=
"Are you learning it from a book or the internet?"
This is really advanced syntax, and don't worry if you don't get it.

<hr>

BTW, if anybody wants to see "Yu Ming is Ainm Dom" (My name is Yu Ming), its here: http://www.atomfilms.com/af/content/yu_ming


Ahhh.
So "an" can stand alone (not an bhfuil)?. Or is "an" always alone when it is with the copula?
Yes now I remember that idirl?on is internet!

But I dont understand this:
at? s? ? fhoghlaim agat?
I mean, I understand , but not this:
at? s? ? fhoghlaim agat.
I don't understand why it's ? and not a. ? would stand for something like "a a" ?

...abit confused.

Well anyways. I still have alot to learn. Lenition and eclips are to me the hardest things because they seem to appear in such perticular cases! And also contractions. Like "c?rb siad" Why is it c?rB, and not c?rbh? Or is it just a typo...

Oh I love Irish!

T?im i ngr? l?i Gaeilge!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:33 am 
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aardwolf wrote:
Conas at? t?; T?im; N? dhearna m?.
C?n f?th a gceapann t? nach n-oibr?onn an Ghaeilge caighde?nach r?-mhaith? ?s?idim ? gach l?, agus t? s? ag obair go bre? domsa! S?lim go mbraitheann s? ar an gcan?int a bhfoghlaim?tear ? agus t? ?g; t?imse go bre? leis an gcaighde?n oifigi?il.

Sa scoil, taimid ag foghliam Gaelinn Muimheanach. Ni usaidimid fhocail san chaighdean oifiguil ma ta siad agus Gaelinn Muimhneach difriuil. Is an rud ceanna e i nGaillimh agus i nDoire. Ta se beaganin difriuil i mBaile Atha Cliath, ach ta sibh ag foghliam canuint nua.
(I don't know the rest as Ghaelinn)
The whole reason most people willingly learn and speak Irish is because it is the native language of this country that has been spoken for hundreds of years. But in Ireland the way people spoke hundreds of years ago was not an chaighdean oifiguil, it was the different dialects which makes using Standard Irish words contrary to the whole reason Irish is learnt. I don't think the different dialects pose an obstacle, someone from Ring could understand someone from Gweedore perfectly. Anyway, that's just my Provincial opinion.

Egein, chuireann do Gaeilinn iontas orm! Ta tu an-iontach ar duine Quebecoise!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:38 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:21 pm
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Location: Reykjavik
Wow... I had never asked myself about plurals of adjectives. I figured it was either -a or -e, depending on the consonant. But now I see there are three declensions, depending on the strength of the plural of a word! I didn't even know that there were two strengths of plural! I had figured they were all irregular....

I'm using a site called Gramadach Na Gaeilge.
(would it be right if I said: Gramadach Na Teangacha Ceilteacha?)
http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/gram.htm

Irish is SO complicated. I just can't believe it. But at the same time, I can just put eclipses and lenitions everwhere and say I speak a really rare dialect.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:51 am 
Sanci
Sanci
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Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:21 pm
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Location: Reykjavik
Hah!
Quote:
Egein, chuireann do Gaeilinn iontas orm! Ta tu an-iontach ar duine Quebecoise!


Go raibh maith agat, ach t? na f?cal "qu?b?coi". With an -e is feminine! Mar is mise fear!

But thanks...although I still believe I haven't even touched the surface of it all!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:23 pm 
Sanci
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Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:15 pm
Posts: 66
Location: Nice, France
Vlaran:
I agree with what you're saying; TBH, I'd love to shed my horrible Caighde?n Oifigi?il, and have a more flowery dialect, but unfortunately, this is what I've been taught. I've been learning since I was three, so the language is second nature to me; even if the standard is quite clinical, it's how I communicate in Irish (if that makes sense).

Quote:
But in Ireland the way people spoke hundreds of years ago was not an chaighdean oifiguil, it was the different dialects which makes using Standard Irish words contrary to the whole reason Irish is learnt.

In my defense, all I can say is that languages change. We no longer speak Olde English; speaking a "new" form of Irish isn't that odd when you think about it.



@Egein:
I'll answer those questions later on tonight; I'm short on time right now. Gabh mo leithsc?al!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:51 pm 
Sanci
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:04 am
Posts: 56
Location: Corcaigh Mor Mumhain
I'm not saying anyone else should learn a particular dialect, I was just saying my own reasons for speaking Munster Irish. We need An Caighdean Oifigiuil for, as the name suggests official purposes such as laws and TG4.
Quote:
Irish is SO complicated.

I dont really have a clue on in depth Irish Grammar, they don't really teach us that at school, but I have okay conversational skills although I have only been learning the language since we moved here in 2003. There are alot of rules in grammar that I am ignorant of but I follow them unconsciously, just as most people do when they speak English. I owe most of my Irish to two stays at Irish College.
Quote:
Go raibh maith agat, ach t? na f?cal "qu?b?coi".

Ta bron orm.
Je suis desole :oops:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:23 pm 
Sanci
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Location: Reykjavik
And it should have been "ach t? an focal"... :oops:

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