zompist bboard

a congress of convoluted conworldery
It is currently Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:25 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 5:21 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 16045
Location: One of the dark places of the world
Thought I'd do something a little different with my latest Øynduyska translation. Since it's a germanic language (and relatively close to English at that), a lot of people here might be able to understand some amount of it, and I'm curious to see just how intelligible you think it is. So, take this as a game or challenge: without looking up the answers, how much of the following can you translate, based on your knowledge of English, other Germanic languages, or indeed any other languages that might be relevent?

I say "without looking up the answers" because you'll probably recognise immediately what it's a translation of. Please, don't just cheat and copypaste the correct answers, but try to work it out yourselves...

----------------------

In a hola i ða eorða was a hobbet at biying. Náva násteys, threkjeys, waąts hols, sam voll bi sluta mąðon lay ay wáseya stenka tó; aydi na drueys, calwes, sáðeys hols alang nawta sam in ðama lay ta ásitta ni ta etha: ðat is hobbetshol worða, ay ðat ðar, snuggelðóm ðat bytákkjen.

Ta ðama a hringley dor ðruwat stóð, liech ta cunnáwen, verdi lacker, alang glissey, yølu, bręsen knoffa in ða prassis midden. Opend ðat ta an rørlicha yanga, ða dor, an yang liech ta eorðayanga: wel snuggelshapa eorðayang ąnna smják, alang owka wáya, tiola ay tępeta budma, bymanna bi upswørba stóler, ay maneya, maneya snagger ta hątta ay cassoka – lay safteð a ða hobbeta ta vistara. Unwáð fyr ay fyr ða eorðayang si, wáyað bastant ach na voll rewt wið ða banka – Đa Banka, hęt ylfa ljøwa all i mila ay mila ufringaða ðama – ay opend maney littela hringleya dyr av ðama, fyrst ta ána flänkja, ðan ta áðer. Náva wáyunger uvahysser an ða hobbeta: kwarton, bąðrummer, dyspanson (a háp av ðey ðar), gardrober (volly seęla, stóð ðey bi henn, uva-offera ta cláðinga), kykjenen, bordstubher – stóð all a ða ánsema hayða, ay aviren ta ða ánsema yątyanga. Stóð ða best rummer all ta ða winstreð (wáyað ynat), epper si ðey har, fa ally weyáwen bi ðam lay – deopsangda, hringleya weyáwen, yasað ova yerden henn, ay ova méðwer besheya, sam ova ða brynna fliððer.

--------

Have fun! And show your working!

_________________
Blog: http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 6:11 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:50 am
Posts: 2248
I read the first sentence and I immediately stopped. You could've chosen someone more palatable than Tolkien

_________________
Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to- OH WAIT


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 7:23 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 16045
Location: One of the dark places of the world
Polaco, el wrote:
I read the first sentence and I immediately stopped. You could've chosen someone more palatable than Tolkien


...what's unpalatable about it? From my point of view, it's a short piece in a conversational but varied style, with a great deal of vocabulary from a range of areas, and much more representative of ordinary language than the usual passages from the Bible, Beowulf, the UNDHR, poetry, etc, while still being more syntactically interest and culturally recognisable than, say, a shopping list. If you're worried that the author is too conservative for you, there's really nothing particularly political in this extract - certainly not so political that just reading it would hurt you!

For future reference, what ought people to translate for you?

_________________
Blog: http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 7:39 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:00 pm
Posts: 1197
Polaco, el wrote:
I read the first sentence and I immediately stopped. You could've chosen someone more palatable than Tolkien

Blasphemy. He is the single greatest writer of prose in the English language and I won't hear otherwise. ;) (Austen might be a close second...)

Quote:
snuggelðóm

I think this is my new favorite invented word. :D

_________________
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 8:14 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 16045
Location: One of the dark places of the world
Zaarin wrote:
Quote:
snuggelðóm

I think this is my new favorite invented word. :D

Thank you! [oh, hang on, that could just be spelled -dóm, couldn't it? Well, never mind...]

Confession time: I liked that word so much that I coined it, even though its in-world justification is perhaps not of the highest calibre. To have that meaning, it's probably a relatively recent loanword from English (well, plus a suffix). Alternatively, it could parallel the English word, which popped out of nowhere with no clear etymology. Apparently it started as a term for ships, "protected from the weather", and the best guess is that it comes from a Norse word meaning something along the line of "short-haired" or its derivatives (meaning "clean", "tidy", "handsome", "scant", "quick", etc) - which is semantically possible but hardly obvious. In any case, it's possible that the word in this language is similarly borrowed and has undergone similar semantic drift, or, as I say, it could be a later borrowing.

_________________
Blog: http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 8:32 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:50 am
Posts: 2248
Quote:
From my point of view, it's a short piece in a conversational but varied style, with a great deal of vocabulary from a range of areas, and much more representative of ordinary language than the usual passages from the Bible, Beowulf, the UNDHR, poetry, etc, while still being more syntactically interest and culturally recognisable than, say, a shopping list.

All of which is true. None of which does negate the fact that the source passage is designed to confuse and intrigue a reader instead of conveying a clear message, and is much closer to all of the aforementioned than to a typical usage of language.

Quote:
If you're worried that the author is too conservative for you, there's really nothing particularly political in this extract - certainly not so political that just reading it would hurt you!

It hurts me, and it has nothing to do with the politics, unfortunately. (FYI, I know the author and I know the fragment. That's what prompted my reaction.)

Quote:
For future reference, what ought people to translate for you?

(Of course, I certainly am the only person on Earth that could possibly hate the style of the author of the original fragment…)

Asimov, Orwell, Hemingway perhaps?

_________________
Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to- OH WAIT


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:51 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:14 pm
Posts: 153
Location: San Francisco
about 50%, helps having some memory of the English story. But not good enough memory to gloss over the parts I couldn't make out.

In a hola i ða eorða was a hobbet at biying.
* in a hole in the earth was a hobbit a-biding.

Náva násteys, threkjeys, waąts hols,
* not nasty, ??, damp hole,

sam voll bi sluta mąðon lay ay wáseya stenka tó;
* same would be ?? ?? ?? were stinkie toes(?);

aydi na drueys, calwes, sáðeys hols alang
* either not ??, ??, sandy hole as well

nawta sam in ðama lay ta ásitta ni ta etha:
* not same in there lay the ?? nor the ??:

ðat is hobbetshol worða, ay ðat ðar, snuggelðóm ðat bytákkjen.
* there is a hobbets-hole word, as that there, 'snuggeldom' that they say.

Ta ðama a hringley dor ðruwat stóð, liech ta cunnáwen,
* there was a ringly (round) door ?? built/placed, like a shield

verdi lacker, alang glissey, yølu, bręsen knoffa in ða prassis midden.
*green painted, also a sjiny, yellow, brass knob in the precise center.

Opend ðat ta an rørlicha yanga, ða dor, an yang liech ta eorðayanga:
* this opened on a long hallway, the door, and long like the earth-yanga(?):

wel snuggelshapa eorðayang ąnna smják,
* well snuggle-shaped earth-yanga and ??

alang owka wáya, tiola ay tępeta budma,
* along all the way, tile and carpet flooring (< G. Fusboden?)

bymanna bi upswørba stóler, ay maneya, maneya snagger ta hątta ay cassoka
* ?? by upswept ??, there are many, many, hooks with hats and cloaks

– lay safteð a ða hobbeta ta vistara.
* these are the hobbits vestments.

Unwáð fyr ay fyr ða eorðayang si,
* ?? four by four the earth-yanga see,

wáyað bastant ach na voll rewt wið ða banka – Đa Banka,
* were windows(?) in the wall right through the hill - The Hill,

hęt ylfa ljøwa all i mila ay mila ufringaða ðama –
* so it hight to all known for miles and miles around there -

ay opend maney littela hringleya dyr av ðama, fyrst ta ána flänkja, ðan ta áðer.
* and opened many little round doors from there, first on one side, then the other

Náva wáyunger uvahysser an ða hobbeta: kwarton, bąðrummer, dyspanson (a háp av ðey ðar),
* not ?? ?? for the hobbit: bedrooms, bathrooms, ?? (as it happens that that have there),

gardrober (volly seęla, stóð ðey bi henn, uva-offera ta cláðinga), kykjenen, bordstubher – stóð all
* wardrobes (very ??, placed they nearby, ?? the clothing), kitchen, pantry, all placed

a ða ánsema hayða, ay aviren ta ða ánsema yątyanga.
* at the same height, and having the same ??.

Stóð ða best rummer all ta ða winstreð (wáyað ynat),
* Placed the best rooms all to the windows (?? ??),

epper si ðey har, fa ally weyáwen bi ðam lay –
* upper so they were, for all ?? by that lay -

deopsangda, hringleya weyáwen, yasað ova yerden henn,
* ??, round windows(?), over-looking the garden

ay ova méðwer besheya, sam ova ða brynna fliððer.
* and over the middle ??, same over the burning ??

I know, I have too many words for "window". A lot of guessing influenced by the knowledge of the story. But I didn't cheat, and having some familiarity with Germanic sound changes to and fro (analogizing from English & German cognate pairs, and some Norsish stuff) helped in some cases and probably led me astray in others. But 'verdi' instead of '*grøn'? And what is an "earth-yanga"?

[edit]Yikes, I'm the only one who trotted out their actual translation, which is what I thought Sal had asked for. The discussion so far doesn't seem to be going that direction.[/edit]

_________________
(Avatar is an electric motor consisting of a bit of wire, a couple of paper clips,
two neodymium magnets, and a pair of AA batteries. A very cute demo of
minimal technology, and likewise completely useless for any practical purpose.)


Last edited by garysk on Fri May 05, 2017 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:56 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:14 pm
Posts: 153
Location: San Francisco
@Sal - fun!

@El Polaco - get over yourself, man.

@Zaarin - I concur, snuggelðóm is capital!

_________________
(Avatar is an electric motor consisting of a bit of wire, a couple of paper clips,
two neodymium magnets, and a pair of AA batteries. A very cute demo of
minimal technology, and likewise completely useless for any practical purpose.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 11:36 pm 
Osän
Osän
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:57 pm
Posts: 11057
Location: šinambiem bambam
This is a serious attempt; I know it's horribly wrong but I'm not getting it wrong on purpose just to be silly. I do this sort of thing a lot when Im in a chatroom and someone pastes a headline in German or some other language I can pick out words here and there to check when Google Translate fails.

Also, I'm not familiar with the source material, so even unconscious memory isnt going to help me here. Also, of course, I havent looked at the other replies since I just clicked "post reply" so I didnt see anything out of the corner of my eye either.

Quote:
In a hola i ða eorða was a hobbet at biying. Náva násteys, threkjeys, waąts hols, sam voll bi sluta mąðon lay ay wáseya stenka tó; aydi na drueys, calwes, sáðeys hols alang nawta sam in ðama lay ta ásitta ni ta etha: ðat is hobbetshol worða, ay ðat ðar, snuggelðóm ðat bytákkjen.

In a hole in the Earth was living a hobbit. Not two, nor three, or many holes, but one full of mortal men and warlike stench too; and not trees, callows, sandy holes along the same in there, but to riverside nor to field: that is the hobbit's hole word, and that there, in safety they grow.

Quote:
Ta ðama a hringley dor ðruwat stóð, liech ta cunnáwen, verdi lacker, alang glissey, yølu, bręsen knoffa in ða prassis midden. Opend ðat ta an rørlicha yanga, ða dor, an yang liech ta eorðayanga: wel snuggelshapa eorðayang ąnna smják, alang owka wáya, tiola ay tępeta budma, bymanna bi upswørba stóler, ay maneya, maneya snagger ta hątta ay cassoka – lay safteð a ða hobbeta ta vistara.
To them, a ring throughout the door stood; like rabbits, green dragons, gliding along, yellow-brown boys appeared in the presence. It opened to one rare youth, the door, who was young like the children of the soil: safe and secure, children hoped along their own ways, of a sword with a tempered bottom, with warped steel, and money, money as hard as a hunter and his arrow — yet soft like the hobbits they'd seen.

Quote:
Unwáð fyr ay fyr ða eorðayang si, wáyað bastant ach na voll rewt wið ða banka – Đa Banka, hęt ylfa ljøwa all i mila ay mila ufringaða ðama – ay opend maney littela hringleya dyr av ðama, fyrst ta ána flänkja, ðan ta áðer. Náva wáyunger uvahysser an ða hobbeta: kwarton, bąðrummer, dyspanson (a háp av ðey ðar), gardrober (volly seęla, stóð ðey bi henn, uva-offera ta cláðinga), kykjenen, bordstubher – stóð all a ða ánsema hayða, ay aviren ta ða ánsema yątyanga.
As they walked fires grew all around the children, seeing enough of the full right with the bank — The Bank, in front of thousands of elves surrounding them all — and many little ringlets opened throughout them, first to their own flanks, then to the others. Now they saw up above on the hobbit: bedrooms, bathrooms, dispension (a hope of them all), wardrobes (fully stocked, they stood by her, offering up their clothes), kitchens, pantries — they all stood in an awesome heath, and showed these to all of their awesome children.

Quote:
Stóð ða best rummer all ta ða winstreð (wáyað ynat), epper si ðey har, fa ally weyáwen bi ðam lay – deopsangda, hringleya weyáwen, yasað ova yerden henn, ay ova méðwer besheya, sam ova ða brynna fliððer.
The best room of all they saw was the vineyard (they saw inside), as they stood still, for all knowledge lay beside them — deep blood, the knowledge of the rings, so said up by her garden, and up with her halfway, but just one brown field.

-----------

This is a beautiful language. are /th/ and /sh/ both clusters? Is /ä/ always that rare?

-------------

Quote:
Have fun! And show your working!
I pretty much guessed at everything I didnt know, and I hope I have a few correct guesses, but there isnt really any great deal of work to show. All I can say is that I tried to follow patterns. When I saw two words near the end that looked like they might be names of rooms in a house, I made all of the other nouns in that clause to also be names of rooms, except for "dyspanson", which I couldnt really come up with anything for.

Also, I stuck with consistency. I realize "yanga" almost certainly doesnt mean "young" or "child", but once I picked it I stuck with it. I'm guessing this language has done /g/ > /j/ at least conditionally and therefore it could be a form of the verb "to go"?

I assumed all of the vowels with ogoneks were nasals and had come from earlier sequences of vowel + nasal. Banka could be a newer loan, I guess.

_________________
<newsboy> Tiger Woods charged with DUI in Florida 18:48:40
<newsboy> Tiger Kills Employee at U.K. Zoo 18:56:46


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 7:18 am 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:50 am
Posts: 2248
garysk wrote:
@El Polaco - get over yourself, man.

That's absolutely not patronizing.

_________________
Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to- OH WAIT


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 10:14 am 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 16045
Location: One of the dark places of the world
Soap wrote:
This is a beautiful language. are /th/ and /sh/ both clusters? Is /ä/ always that rare?

Thank you! I'm glad you like the look of it. No, <th> and <sh> are generally digraphs, although they could potentially be clusters across a morpheme boundary. a-umlaut is rare (at the moment) because (at the moment) I'm only using it to mark synchronic umlaut, and a few places where there's synchronic lengthening. However, since I'm only doing that for one vowel, it's possible I may decide not to bother with it - or else I may restore it to places where it's currently just <e>.

Anyway, that certainly was... a valiant attempt! Much more dramatic than the real text. And I can honestly say there are one or two moments where you're closer than garysk managed... one or two. Overall though, as you may have guessed, his is rather closer than yours.

I must say, though, I'm impressed that both of you thought one word meant 'pantries' - and the same word, even! I'm less impressed that you both identified the wrong word as 'pantries', but that was quite a guess nonetheless! I'm curious, though, about some guesses, like "tiola" meaning "sword"...
Sadly, the ogoneks are historically unrelated to actual ogoneks, and do not indicate nasalisation...



garysk: some really good guesses, there. I'm surprised, for instance, that you realised the first line had "a-biding" - I'd have guessed just "being", myself. The snuggleshaped earth-yanga has defeated you, however! And although I really like your "as it happens" (note to self: use 'hap' more in this language if possible), and indeed soap's "hope", háp is neither hap nor hope, but a different vowel entirely...

[gro/n is indeed the inherited word, but has become a more generic natural green/blue, with 'verdi' imported as a word for bright and artificial greens.]

Thanks for playing along!

_________________
Blog: http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 2:48 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:35 am
Posts: 161
Location: California
It looks great! I'm afraid I could only figure out the first line. Past that, I'd reckon I understood less than 10% of the text.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:41 pm 
Visanom
Visanom
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:34 pm
Posts: 6477
Location: Stockholm
The first sentence starts with "In a hole in the earth was a hobbit", then I can only understand a few words every here and there, such as ðat, ðar, dor, bastant, maney, littela, bąðrummer, gardrober, kykjenen.

_________________
Image
Most recent quiz:
Eurovision Song Contest 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:39 pm 
Osän
Osän
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:57 pm
Posts: 11057
Location: šinambiem bambam
Salmoneus wrote:
I must say, though, I'm impressed that both of you thought one word meant 'pantries' - and the same word, even! I'm less impressed that you both identified the wrong word as 'pantries', but that was quite a guess nonetheless! I'm curious, though, about some guesses, like "tiola" meaning "sword"...
Thanks. I think I just picked "pantries" because it seemed logical. To be honest, I remember being hestitant to even use "bathrooms" even though it seemed obvious ... I just didnt think I'd ever encounter that word in the entirety of Tolkien's writing. I think I started that sentence with the words "kitchens" and "bathrooms" and worked outward in both directions. In general, I didnt go word for word from beginning to end, I picked out words and phrases that I thought I might know and then filled in the gaps.

Tiola meaning sword was a total guess, and I was pretty sure I was wrong, but I couldnt think of anything better. I might have gotten it correct if I hadn't started down the wrong track by translating upswørba stóler as "warped steel" and especially tępeta budma as "tempered bottom". But I would never have figured out tępeta itself even if I had known that the first vowel was not nasalized. Likewise, cassoka meaning "arrow" was another total guess, not based on any word I know in any language, but I used it because it seemed like a good place to have another word for a weapon.

Im guessing you assumed this, but, I meant "awesome" in the presumed previous sense of "awe-inspiring" but couldnt think of a better way to translate it for some reason.

_________________
<newsboy> Tiger Woods charged with DUI in Florida 18:48:40
<newsboy> Tiger Kills Employee at U.K. Zoo 18:56:46


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:58 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:14 pm
Posts: 153
Location: San Francisco
@Sal, I missed your post of May 6, the day my harddrive died. This is in belated response thereto.

If /hap/ is not related to happen, then what? (I still have not scrounged up the original English prose, so I am truly OTL on this one.)

The same for earth-yanga, what's it mean?

And finally, /bordstubher/?

_________________
(Avatar is an electric motor consisting of a bit of wire, a couple of paper clips,
two neodymium magnets, and a pair of AA batteries. A very cute demo of
minimal technology, and likewise completely useless for any practical purpose.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:49 am 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 16045
Location: One of the dark places of the world
I don't imagine anyone else will want to play along, but in case they do I'll put this in spoilers anyway...

More: show
háp - heap! From PGmc *haupaz. "a háp av ðey ðar" < "lots of them". (a heap of them-there). Though I think the case of the pronoun is wrong...

eorðayang - tunnel! "yang" is from *gangaz, cognate to German "Gang" - it means "way", specifically "hallway". The first element is obviously "earth" or "ground". So it's an "earth-way" or "earth-hallway" or "earth-passage". So, "tunnel". The closest analogue I think is Icelandic, which apparently has a 'tunnel' word cognate to 'under-gang'.

bordstubher - dining rooms. I can see that that's a tricky one, unless you know the Icelandic that it may have been calqued from: "borðstofa". The first element is English "board", the wooden block people ate off, which is both the dining table itself and a metonym for eating (English "bed and board"). The second element is cognate to English "stove" and German "Stube" (parlor).

_________________
Blog: http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:39 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:14 pm
Posts: 153
Location: San Francisco
More: show
háp - didn't pay enough attention to the indefinite article, taking it as a conjunction or adverb. I seem to recall the original having waxed in its description of Bag End, possibly to the chagrin or El Polaco, So this brings up the question of what is dyspanson?

eorðayang - ah, didn't realize the /g/ got palatalized (originally I wrote "mooshed") when intervocal (though you may well have said at some point). Have you ever read Pohl Anderson's (IIRC) explanation of atomic physics in English using only non-borrowed words (i.e., Germanic pedigree)? A marvelous construct in my mind, accuracy not evaluated. But kinda in the same vein as deciphering Øynduyska.

bordstubher - I got the relation to bed and "board" alright, but the stubhe part is quizzical: how did "stove" become "parlor"?

Of course I could dig up a Hobbit copy somewhere, but seeing the original is far less instructive than hearing your explanations of the etymology.


This has been an altogether entertaining enterprise! Thank you, Sal, for having made this effort (though precious few ZBBers took the bait)!

[Edit]Hid my response in [ more].[/edit]

_________________
(Avatar is an electric motor consisting of a bit of wire, a couple of paper clips,
two neodymium magnets, and a pair of AA batteries. A very cute demo of
minimal technology, and likewise completely useless for any practical purpose.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:24 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 16045
Location: One of the dark places of the world
garysk wrote:
More: show
háp - didn't pay enough attention to the indefinite article, taking it as a conjunction or adverb. I seem to recall the original having waxed in its description of Bag End, possibly to the chagrin or El Polaco, So this brings up the question of what is dyspanson?

eorðayang - ah, didn't realize the /g/ got palatalized (originally I wrote "mooshed") when intervocal (though you may well have said at some point). Have you ever read Pohl Anderson's (IIRC) explanation of atomic physics in English using only non-borrowed words (i.e., Germanic pedigree)? A marvelous construct in my mind, accuracy not evaluated. But kinda in the same vein as deciphering Øynduyska.

bordstubher - I got the relation to bed and "board" alright, but the stubhe part is quizzical: how did "stove" become "parlor"?

Of course I could dig up a Hobbit copy somewhere, but seeing the original is far less instructive than hearing your explanations of the etymology.


This has been an altogether entertaining enterprise! Thank you, Sal, for having made this effort (though precious few ZBBers took the bait)!

[Edit]Hid my response in [ more].[/edit]


Dyspanson -
More: show
ahh, now that's a genuinely tricky one, at least if you're in a Germanic mindset. It's the plural form of the word for 'pantry' - which is a loanword from the Portuguese (or less likely Spanish) despensa.


Re. the 'stubher' word:
More: show
Apparently there's a theorised original meaning "heated room". In English it became much more specifically a very small very heated room, while in German and Icelandic it retained a more general "pleasant living room for guests" sense. In Swedish it apparently has ended up meaning "small house", but also 'room' in compounds, and in Danish and Norwegian it can mean either "living room" or "large bedroom in a hospital". In Old English it meant "bathroom" or "bathhouse"...


On Anderson's essay: I've not read it all, but I'm aware of it! Indeed, that sort of "wouldn't English be fun without all the loanwords?" impulse is part of the reason for this conlang. Unfortunately, in practice it's really hard to do that and still be recognisable - even a lot of the "Germanic" vocabulary in English is borrowed from Dutch and Low German, which would be less viable origins given the location of this language, or else just, seemingly, randomly transformed in meaning in a way not reflected in any other language... (and I have tended to follow English lexicon choices where viable, but doing that all the time would get silly, particularly when the semantic drift in English is post-Old English).

_________________
Blog: http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:57 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 16045
Location: One of the dark places of the world
Probably going to take a bit of a break with this for a while, but I thought I'd show you something I've jotted down... another little comprehension challenge.

Again, it's a well-known text, though in deference to The Pole's delicate sensibilities, this one is from a more respectably Literary source...

(a couple of changes from before, some just in spelling. Also I can't promise it's completely error-free)

Fann hav Eosmað, by swóita scurra renn,
Tha drught av Hrǫðmað ta tha root yprak,
Ay affri áthr i sytch lycker ybaðað,
Sam av tha mayta is tha blósu varygallað;
Fann hav Zephiros ách, bi swóit áth henn,
Druch affri hoalt ay háth tha naska tánner
Y’nspyrað, hav ay tha yong sunn druch tha Ramm
Halv hør bąne yronn, ay wrykj thá melodia, littela føghler,
Sam swef alang all nacht sinn open áwen
(Sting alsu Natúr in thera heorten):
Thann langað foalker wáðia ta pelgremetta.

_________________
Blog: http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:37 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:50 am
Posts: 2248
Quote:
The Pole's delicate sensibilities,


_________________
Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to- OH WAIT


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:21 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:00 pm
Posts: 1197
Very nice translation; I actually first recognized the piece you were translating by the meter. :)

_________________
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:57 am 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 16045
Location: One of the dark places of the world
Zaarin wrote:
Very nice translation; I actually first recognized the piece you were translating by the meter. :)


Thank you! To be honest, it's complete good luck that a lot of the lines ended up with a nice metre. I was just translating directly - in fact, I tried this time to translate it into the oldest form of the language and then evolve it forward, and I was really pleased with how something resembling a poetic translation emerged out of what began as a pretty ungainly ancient text.

As a proud parent of the conlang, I naturally think this is because anything in Øynduyska sounds like poetry... or, more realistically, it could just be because the language underwent many of the same (or parallel) changes as English, so it shares the same sort of rhythm and probably suits the same sort of poetic forms.

_________________
Blog: http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:21 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:00 pm
Posts: 1197
Perhaps it's the close relationship and the relatively archaic flavor of Øynduyska then, but it preserved the chanty rhythm of the original quite well. I assumed you were aiming for a poetic translation.

_________________
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:44 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 16045
Location: One of the dark places of the world
Zaarin wrote:
Perhaps it's the close relationship and the relatively archaic flavor of Øynduyska then, but it preserved the chanty rhythm of the original quite well. I assumed you were aiming for a poetic translation.


More, 'encouraged with pleasantly surprised' than 'aiming for'. The extent of my interference was placing a few subordinate clauses, and trying to get the line-breaks as well-placed as possible (not always succesfully)

_________________
Blog: http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:44 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:14 pm
Posts: 153
Location: San Francisco
Ah, my favorite poem of all time!

line 1 Fann hav Eosmað, by swóita scurra renn,

the meter was a big clue

line 2 Tha drught av Hrǫðmað ta tha root yprak,

I was pretty sure of it

line 3 Ay affri áthr i sytch lycker ybaðað,

I knew I had it nailed!

Let me join the others in praising your keeping the meter and rythm of the original! It shows you that Middle English, for all its intrusive French, is still steadfastly a Germanic tongue! How wonderful it would be to hear it read aloud!

_________________
(Avatar is an electric motor consisting of a bit of wire, a couple of paper clips,
two neodymium magnets, and a pair of AA batteries. A very cute demo of
minimal technology, and likewise completely useless for any practical purpose.)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group