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 Post subject: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:34 am 
Avisaru
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Hi guys - dropping back in here after a looong absence, as I finally have a new conlang project :)

I'm working on a fantasy novel setting where one of the main languages is effectively a conlang, in that it was created by an individual (as an attempt to reconstruct and revive a long-dead language based on limited materials). I was just curious as to whether anyone here had done this, or heard of such a beast?

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:49 am 
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The most famous in-world conlang of course is the Black Speech.

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:12 am 
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WeepingElf wrote:
The most famous in-world conlang of course is the Black Speech.


Ha, good point! I'd forgotten that the orcs had no language of their own. Bad Tolkien fan, no biscuit!

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:46 am 
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RedFox wrote:
Hi guys - dropping back in here after a looong absence, as I finally have a new conlang project :)

I'm working on a fantasy novel setting where one of the main languages is effectively a conlang, in that it was created by an individual (as an attempt to reconstruct and revive a long-dead language based on limited materials). I was just curious as to whether anyone here had done this, or heard of such a beast?

If it counts, someone probably has written an AltHist where Esperanto is the primary language.


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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:31 am 
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The obvious thing to do is have someone in-universe try to create a naturalistic conlang with an uncanny resemblance to English and be told it's not even remotely believable.

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:31 am 
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My proto-language, Lulani, was a conlang in-universe, just so I could forgive myself for assorted non-naturalistic elements. Elements which are fading as I work on it, actually. It was created by Queen Loren after the survivors of a war became one country.


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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:49 pm 
Sumerul
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My conlang is not naturalistic, so it makes sense to treat it as an in-world conlang. I've re-used it for various conworld attempts; sometimes it's a conlang in-world, sometimes it just happens to have rather unusual characteristics. And sometimes it's created by some sort of deity, which I guess is kind of in between.

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:30 am 
Avisaru
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alice wrote:
The obvious thing to do is have someone in-universe try to create a naturalistic conlang with an uncanny resemblance to English and be told it's not even remotely believable.


Hmm, that could be rather tricky to get across when one is writing in English already!

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:35 am 
Avisaru
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Ryan of Tinellb wrote:
My proto-language, Lulani, was a conlang in-universe, just so I could forgive myself for assorted non-naturalistic elements. Elements which are fading as I work on it, actually. It was created by Queen Loren after the survivors of a war became one country.


That's not unlike the backstory of my conlang - created by refugees who had been expelled from an empire. Once I have the bones of it down, I want to create a daughter language used by their descendants, which will be a little more "ordinary" than the original creation.

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:57 pm 
Sumerul
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Recently, an old idea of mine reared its ugly head again - Pyctw (pronounced ['piktu]), an alleged surviving Pictish language that looks like a parody of a Celtic language, with an outlandish orthography, weird initial mutations that do not make phonological sense, and other oddballs. The thing is a forgery by a 19-century Celtomaniac. The language has not been worked out yet, though.

Ray Brown from the CONLANG list has done a fictional IAL, Outidic.

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:20 pm 
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I would love to see bits and pieces of all of these. I love the idea of a 2nd order conlang, though Im not sure many others would call it that.

Im not sure if my idea quite fits in here:

On planet Teppala, during the two peaks of human civilization, every religion formed its own political party, and religion tended to be passed down along hereditary and ethnic lines. (This is why the names of some tribes have unusual names such as Sleepers and Thunderers; the names were political parties' names.) Children of mixed marriages would generally have their identity chosen by their parents, so there was no concept of being, e.g. half Andanese and half Subumpamese.

One artifact of living under this system was that ancestral languages tended to be preserved even in unusual circumstances, such as having people live side by side thousands of years. The Andanese are a prime example of this, as they never had a nation of their own; they formed colonies (often parasitic) inside the nations of other people, and kept their language to themselves.

However, there was also the phenomenon of new political parties branching off from a common base. This happened quite often, such as the Moonshine people branching off from the Crystals in August 3958. This caused the Moonshines to create a new language to go with their new political party, religion, and tribal identity. For pragmatic reasons, they did not simply create a whole new languages from scratch; they took dialectal traits and amplified them. But the entire population was forced to speak the same way, meaning that people had to relearn pronunciation habits and basic vocabulary in those areas in which there were differences between the moonshine dialect and the mainline Crystal dialect of Khulls. THus, only 200 yrs later, the Moonshines and the mainline Crystals could not understand each other without the help of educated translators.

The above is an example of a politically hostile bifurcation. If a political party were branching out but intending to remain an ally, they would create a new language with just a few minor differences, such as coinign a new word for shoelace, so they could be recognized by the gov't as a separate tribe, even if they fully intended to continue to be friendly towards their parent culture and intermarry with each other. There were military and financial advantages to doing this, so it wasnt just a matter of pride: Nama granted eahc new political party military security and a grant to a piece of land for their party members alone should they need to take refuge from their rivals.

Also, if a political alliance was formed, the stronger party would sometimes absorb the weaker party completely, even though the weaker party would lose the privileges they enjoyed from being recognized as an independent organization. This means the weaker party had to give up their language. Often the winning language would adopt many words from the language they absorbed, and begin educating younfg children immediately in the new blended language. Still, the grammar was almost never changed.

Lastly there is the phenomenon of humans interacting with animals. Humans on planet Teppala mostly live only with other humans, but they are restricted to just a few habitats, mostly along temperate and subtropical coastlines and some major rivers. Anywhere outside of this, humans are in the middle of the food chain ratehr than the top and need to ally with one of several sapient animal species just to have a chance of survival. This rresults in a language being compeltely frozen in time, with no changes at all, since the animal species would have difficultly learning to adapt to the changes in the language. Thus, for example, when the Moonshine people joined the penguin societies on the glaciers of Pʷīpʷyàma in the early 4200s, the language they spoke there was frozen with no changes at all for the next 4500 years, while Moonshine spoken outside Pʷīpʷyàma forked off into many daughter languages. Eventually these were all replaced by a single dialect (not Pʷīpʷyàma) spoken in the capital, because these people still held to the principle that all parties must have a single language.

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:08 pm 
Avisaru
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Soap wrote:
Im not sure if my idea quite fits in here


Sounds like you have in-world con-dialects that develop into natural languages. I'm not sure if there's a real-world equivalent... English thieves' cant (c.17th-19th century) is arguably a con-dialect, since it was created by a small subculture to deliberately obfuscate the meaning of their conversations, but it never had a chance (or reason) to develop into a separate language. It probably didn't help that many constables in the London police force (created in the late 18th century) had grown up on the streets and already understood the criminals' vocabulary, rendering it useless.

And of course now that I write that down, it occurs to me that pidgins are created somewhat deliberately from existing languages, albeit to aid communication rather than obscure it, and they develop into creoles that are fully fledged separate languages.

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:12 am 
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These are the best. License to do whatever you like and still imagine people and a culture to go with it.

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:02 pm 
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I have a couple of in-world constructed languages, not worked out in any detail. One is an international auxiliary language called Ayibabi, based on Viksen and Greater Atlian. The phonemes are restricted to those sounds which occur in both languages, the grammar is generally isolating (like Viksen) and words may be drawn from either language - e.g. babi "language" from Viksen bab "to speak", iyeyu "to drink" from GA. There are only two basic prepositions -
o "to, for; of; at, in" and mo "with" - a direct influence of GA, which has just two prepositions u and mu with broadly the same meaning.

The other is Akazean, created by the Viksen rock singer and writer Koko, which appears in his songs and stories. It has a grammar similar to Viksen - e.g. the derivational suffixes -n (masculine), -r (feminine), -se (place) and -la (language) are very similar in function if not necessarily in form to the Viksen suffixes -i, -u, -ze, -ba.

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:38 pm 
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I'm working on a con-conlang for a world where all other languages were lost in a massive handwave. The story goes that it survived because the person who wrote some very powerful protective spell books, also wrote love letters in this language with the same ink, pen, and paper. It started small and intimate as a casual tongue for use in the home, but became fuller and more complex as the users contributed to and curated it.


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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:00 pm 
Avisaru
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alice wrote:
The obvious thing to do is have someone in-universe try to create a naturalistic conlang with an uncanny resemblance to English and be told it's not even remotely believable.


Well Christopher Paolini seems to be quite proficient at it... :P

You know this makes me tempted to put something like this into my novel, if only as a kind of pidgin or cant.

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:45 pm 
Lebom
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The interesting thing is, with an in-universe conlang, there's no guarantee that the creator would be part of a community of language creation artists who pay close attention to linguistic research in order to further their craft (the modern conlang community, of course), or even part of a community that aims to establish a world language and debates what features would best be included in such a language (the early 1900s IAL community).

So an in-universe conlang might not look anything like the naturalistic conlangs we see today. It would be highly influenced by the culture of its creator: the cultural assumptions about what languages are better, more pure, more beautiful; the state of linguistic research; the prevailing philosophical ideas and trends (i.e. look at the early modern philosophical languages); religious beliefs; and so on. And if the creator was not involved in a very linguistically-aware scientific community, they would end up replicating a lot of the structures of their own language in the language they created.


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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:09 pm 
Avisaru
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WeepingElf wrote:
The most famous in-world conlang of course is the Black Speech.


Is it though? I mean, I know Sauron is said to have created it for the orcs, but I can't visualise Sauron sitting down and writing out the grammar, phonology, syntax, and vocab of a conlang for his orcs. By "created" I've always imagined that he did some magic and somehow all the orcs suddenly knew the Black Speech/Orcish, or at least some basic language which evolved as they spoke it. It doesn't really hit me as an in-world conlang. The Dwarves' secret sign-language though - that would be, wouldn't it? I don't know if Tolkien ever actually described it, or whether he just stated that they had one.

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:03 pm 
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But there were also other sources for Black Speech vocabulary. The word for "ring" was nazg, very similar to the final element in the Valarin word mâchananaškâd "the Doom-ring" (WJ:401, there somewhat differently spelt). Being a Maia, Sauron would know Valarin; it could indeed be his "mothertongue", to use the only term available. If it seems blasphemous to suggest that the tongue of the Gods may have been an ingredient in Sauron's Black Speech, "full of harsh and hideous sounds and vile words", it should be remembered that according to Pengolodh, "the effect of Valarin upon Elvish ears was not pleasing" (WJ:398). Morgoth, technically being a Vala, must have known Valarin (or at least picked it up during the ages he was captive in Valinor). According to LR:178 he taught it to his slaves in a "perverted" form. If so, Valarin naškâd "ring" may have produced nazg in one Orkish dialect of the Second Age, from which Sauron took it.
nazg is likely a loan from Irish nasc "tie, bind". That page makes it sound like Tolkien created the Black Speech last, and unwillingly, since he himself didn't like it. I have a few conlangs I dont like, and theyve just languished for 10+ years without any real changes. But the fact that there are loans in the Black Speech leads me to beleive that it was intended to be, in the context of Middle-Earth., a deliberatelyt manufactured languaghe and not one simply conjured up with magic.

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:24 pm 
Avisaru
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Soap wrote:
Quote:
But there were also other sources for Black Speech vocabulary. The word for "ring" was nazg, very similar to the final element in the Valarin word mâchananaškâd "the Doom-ring" (WJ:401, there somewhat differently spelt). Being a Maia, Sauron would know Valarin; it could indeed be his "mothertongue", to use the only term available. If it seems blasphemous to suggest that the tongue of the Gods may have been an ingredient in Sauron's Black Speech, "full of harsh and hideous sounds and vile words", it should be remembered that according to Pengolodh, "the effect of Valarin upon Elvish ears was not pleasing" (WJ:398). Morgoth, technically being a Vala, must have known Valarin (or at least picked it up during the ages he was captive in Valinor). According to LR:178 he taught it to his slaves in a "perverted" form. If so, Valarin naškâd "ring" may have produced nazg in one Orkish dialect of the Second Age, from which Sauron took it.
nazg is likely a loan from Irish nasc "tie, bind". That page makes it sound like Tolkien created the Black Speech last, and unwillingly, since he himself didn't like it. I have a few conlangs I dont like, and theyve just languished for 10+ years without any real changes. But the fact that there are loans in the Black Speech leads me to beleive that it was intended to be, in the context of Middle-Earth., a deliberatelyt manufactured languaghe and not one simply conjured up with magic.


I didn't mean it in that way. I meant that I can't see Sauron sitting down with parchment and quill and being all "I'm a conlanger!" He may have had ideas to pervert Valarin words etc, but I somehow think he did it in a more deity-like fashion. I don't think Barad-Dûr held a book on Black Speech grammar and vocab, or a "teach yourself Orcish" workbook. I think the first of his orcs would probably have been "born" with some sort of knowledge of the language, which then grew and evolved as they spoke it. Like, Sauron could just do that because he's a god-like Maia - and one of the most powerful at that.

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:50 pm 
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Jonlang wrote:
I didn't mean it in that way. I meant that I can't see Sauron sitting down with parchment and quill and being all "I'm a conlanger!" He may have had ideas to pervert Valarin words etc, but I somehow think he did it in a more deity-like fashion. I don't think Barad-Dûr held a book on Black Speech grammar and vocab, or a "teach yourself Orcish" workbook.


I don't see anyone suggesting Sauron created the Black Speech in such a mundane, un-godlike fashion. He could have conceived of the entire language in an instant and burned it into the brain of his creations with a bolt of lightning, or something. But that wouldn't make it not a conlang.


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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:49 am 
Avisaru
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cromulant wrote:
Jonlang wrote:
I didn't mean it in that way. I meant that I can't see Sauron sitting down with parchment and quill and being all "I'm a conlanger!" He may have had ideas to pervert Valarin words etc, but I somehow think he did it in a more deity-like fashion. I don't think Barad-Dûr held a book on Black Speech grammar and vocab, or a "teach yourself Orcish" workbook.


I don't see anyone suggesting Sauron created the Black Speech in such a mundane, un-godlike fashion. He could have conceived of the entire language in an instant and burned it into the brain of his creations with a bolt of lightning, or something. But that wouldn't make it not a conlang.


But if a god creates a language, does that not make it a natlang?

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:37 pm 
Smeric
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Jonlang wrote:
cromulant wrote:
Jonlang wrote:
I didn't mean it in that way. I meant that I can't see Sauron sitting down with parchment and quill and being all "I'm a conlanger!" He may have had ideas to pervert Valarin words etc, but I somehow think he did it in a more deity-like fashion. I don't think Barad-Dûr held a book on Black Speech grammar and vocab, or a "teach yourself Orcish" workbook.


I don't see anyone suggesting Sauron created the Black Speech in such a mundane, un-godlike fashion. He could have conceived of the entire language in an instant and burned it into the brain of his creations with a bolt of lightning, or something. But that wouldn't make it not a conlang.


But if a god creates a language, does that not make it a natlang?


Is that what a natlang is--a language created by a god? Is this what sets Earth natlangs such as Swedish and Kayardild apart from conlangs--the conlanger of a natlang is a god?

But if this is the case, then Sauron could have easily set down with a parchment and quill, worked on the phonology and morphosyntax, consulted with the Maiar natlanging community as to whether his ideas were plausible/attested...and it would still be natlang.

So your initial objection is moot, since any language Sauron made would by definition be a natlang...no matter what his method.


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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:24 pm 
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Natlangs of course aren't created by gods! They are collectively created by people who use and, in the course of using them, alter already existing languages.

I think that even though Sauron is a kind of deity (it depends, of course, on whom you ask; from a Christian standpoint - and Tolkien was a Christian! - Sauron is not a "god" but rather a fallen angel), the language he created is a conlang, no matter whether he made it with parchment, ink and quill or by magical means (the same way it doesn't matter for a language being a conlang whether it was done with pencil and paper or on a computer).

So the Black Speech is an in-world conlang.

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 Post subject: Re: In-world conlang
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:53 pm 
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The Black Speech discussion is kind of overlooking the obvious: Elvish. The first elves intentionally created the language for themselves in accordance with their philosophical and aesthetic tastes. And at least some of the later developments in the language family are ascribed to intentional decisions by elven conlangers loremasters.

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