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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:46 pm 
Smeric
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On a planet that is recognizably earth, a new scientific civilization emerges from medieval barbarism. Archeologists are studying the ruins of an ancient scientific civilization, but it is difficult to piece together the details because almost everything has been scavenged during the dark ages. An unusual detail is that humans are not the only intelligent species on the planet. There is another species, the Keruxti, that as far as anyone knows for sure, has always shared the planet with us. Legends say they came down from the stars in some mythic past. There are tensions between the two species, but they are working together to build a new civilization.

Scientists send a mission to Mars and find the ruins of an ancient civilization there. Archeologists explore a desert citadel, in the middle of which they discover a towering column of brass. Etched on the sides of this pillar they dicipher an epic poem in the Xyur (Chyur) alphabet recounting the history of their own lost civilization.

It turns out that during the Cold War, the Mariner 4 probe found Mars inhabited by the Keruxti. The Russians were the first to establish contact with their Mars 2 lander.

The most vigorous Martian civilization was Dzhetu Dyeshnorin, the Empire of Dawn. The empire was composed of several tribes, including the Ossians, the Caspians, the Isthians and the Kyro, each of whom clung fiercely to their traditions. Social advancement in the empire was only possible as long as one strictly adhered to the customs of one's tribe. Very roughly, those born in the Ossian tribe could become scholars and judges, but not leaders or scientist-sorcerors. For Caspians it was the other way around. As long as one found a way to justify one's conduct in terms of tribal custom, it wasn't insanely difficult to get around these generalizations. However, provable violations of custom were harshly punished. This system was not universally accepted, but it was universally enforced. The idea was that violation of custom is synonymous with immorality.

The largest civilization, however, was Xyzdesh, the Community of Glass, a more open society centered around the worship of the three goddesses of justice, analysis and victory. An older civilization, Xyzdesh's elaborate mythology was more or less accepted as history in the empire, the Caspian ethnic group (Caspian: Keshpe) being overrepresented among the leaders of both civilizations. Xyzdesh was in a slow process of disintegration under pressure from the empire.

The earth powers were interested in mining rights on Mars, and if possible, converting Martians to Capitalism or Communism and allowing them to build military bases on their territory. Skipping over the next several decades very quickly: The earth powers exploited Xyzdesh's internal weakness to grab large chunks of it. As these territories continued to grow larger, the empire called on Martian patriotism to resist the alien invaders. It initially had problems fighting the humans, but we were eventually driven off planet.

The empire was not satisfied. It saw the earth as a den of iniquity were customs were violated willy nilly. Drawing on the resources of an entire planet, they launched an invasion. Internal resistance groups in the empire were frantic. They saw humans as their last hope of escaping from their tribal elders. They contacted human progressives and created a united front to resist all three empires.

To everyone's surprise, the front posed a serious threat to the internal stability of the warring factions. Like Tsarist Russia in WWI, all their citizens had grown tired of war. For a time, there was a sizable fraction of an interplanetary progressive territory, but regardless of what its founders had intended, the place resembled a decadent cyberpunk society in practice. The warring factions had not disappeared either.

Martian scientist-sorcerors had been in contact with an alien race from another dimension, the Q1vr. The empire appealed to the Q1vr for backup, and they agreed. It turned out the Q1vr are the extradimensional race of religious fundamentalists from one of my previous conworlds. They believed that God would destroy anyone who disobeyed Him. Rigorously empirical, they had long ago decided that God's commandment in creating this world was to maximize total intelligence, beauty and cruelty. They were masters of artificial intelligences and other advanced technology designed to secure this end result.

The Q1vr were beaten back eventually, but Mars, where habitation was relatively sparse to begin with, had been depopulated. Humans and Keruxti survivors lived on in earth, but the seeds of civilization were lost in a new dark age. Over the course of the story, inhabitants of earth's new civilization draws lessons relevant to their contemporary problems from this lost history. Some of these lessons are savory, while others are less so, such as the advocates of the plan that the Keruxti should be rounded up and deported to Mars en masse.

The inspiration for this framing device was the City of Brass from the Arabian Nights, hence the Arabic-inspired design of Xyur. Suggestions? Have I been indulging in too much Golden Age SF and Commander Keen nostalgia recently?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:04 pm 
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SOunds interesting, but it is hard to read (but easier than much of your other posts)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:13 pm 
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mèþru wrote:
SOunds interesting, but it is hard to read (but easier than much of your other posts)

Which parts are problematic? I'll think about how to fix those. I'm also happy to answer any questions you have.

(But before Zionism comes up again, want to create a Zionist-Antizionist Front that promotes Schumpeter's creative destruction as the future of the land of Israel?)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:07 pm 
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You mean that the creation of Israel destroys the existing political situation but that Israel would be destroyed due to its own nature?

I'm not familiar with Schumpeter and "creative destruction"

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:19 pm 
Smeric
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Wikipedia says, "In Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy (1942), Joseph Schumpeter developed the concept out of a careful reading of Marx’s thought (to which the whole of Part I of the book is devoted), arguing (in Part II) that the creative-destructive forces unleashed by capitalism would eventually lead to its demise as a system (see below)."

I mean, I said it as a stupid joke, but I guess it would amount to the innovative forces of capital turning Israel into an ethnicity-free utopia unlike anything its founders intended.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:33 pm 
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I suggest you don't actually do that. And, being Jews, Israel's founders had plenty of different and mutually exclusive ideas for their country.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:50 pm 
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mèþru wrote:
I suggest you don't actually do that.

Why not?

Was anything I said offensive in some way? I'm doing it again, aren't I?

mèþru wrote:
And, being Jews, Israel's founders had plenty of different and mutually exclusive ideas for their country.

Depends on who you count as a founder of Israel as it actually exists. Einstein was a Zionist who helped collect funds for the early movement, but I don't think what he had in mind was anything like Israel as it exists today. Hannah Arendt was a Zionist until Israel refused to let the Arabs who had fled return home. I'd be a Zionist myself if Israel let them return. I oppose Israel for the same reasons I oppose Pakistan.

I don't think any of the founders who belonged to that school of thought would be proud of having founded 21st century Israel, so in this context, I exclude them on principle.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:13 pm 
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No, it's not offensive. It's just extremely unrealistic. And I mean even among those who fought against the Arabs and British in the 30s and 40s. Einstein is not considered a founder of Israel, even though he is universally seen as a positive figure by Israelis and was even invited to be president of Israel.

EDIT: Hannah Arendt is not considered a founding figure of Israel; I've never heard of her until now. Her Wikipedia article indicates that she has a negative reputation in Israel.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:17 pm 
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mèþru wrote:
No, it's not offensive. It's just extremely unrealistic. And I mean even among those who fought against the Arabs and British in the 30s and 40s.

I agree, and that is why I'm not a Zionist. You guys fucked up, probably permanently.

mèþru wrote:
Einstein is not considered a founder of Israel, even though he is universally seen as a positive figure by Israelis and was even invited to be president of Israel.

See: "any of the founders who belonged to that school of thought". I'm not saying Einstein or Hannah Arendt were founders of Israel.

(Edit: I might also be a more guarded Zionist if Israel could give some kind of guarantee that it is never going to displace the remaining Palestinians, which I don't think it can. I couldn't live with myself supporting a nationalist movement like that.)

(Since I care nothing for appearances, if I were Hannah Arendt, I'd have told the Israelis who accused her of being a self-hating Jew: No, I don't hate Jews. You hate Jews. That is why you support Israel, to feel better about being Jewish. There is no difference whatsoever between being a Zionist and hating Jews, and anyone who says otherwise is a liar. From this day on, I will never say "self-hating Jew" again. Instead, I vow to use the accurate term "Zionist".

There is no use going soft on people who would accuse you stuff like that. Piranhas like that can smell weakness. The only way to get them off your back is to consistently refer to whatever group they hate by the term they use to describe themselves or vice-versa. Fuck them.)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:11 am 
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Do you think it would be more historically accurate to derive English names for Martian ethnicities from their self-designations, or from human names for the territories they inhabit, such as Zephyrians, Aeolians, etc.?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:12 pm 
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Strongly disagree with what you said about Israel and self-hating Jews, but an argument there will just distract both of us from your story/world.


Only scientists bother with the names of Martian features. The public doesn't know these places, so they'll probably just use the closest approximation to the Martian names in the languages of contact, and then have that name borrowed into all other Earth languages.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:15 pm 
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mèþru wrote:
Strongly disagree with what you said about Israel and self-hating Jews, but an argument there will just distract both of us from your story/world.

What do you disagree with, that if I were Hannah Arendt then I'd have lost my shit and started accusing everyone of everything? You give me too much credit.

mèþru wrote:
Only scientists bother with the names of Martian features. The public doesn't know these places, so they'll probably just use the closest approximation to the Martian names in the languages of contact, and then have that name borrowed into all other Earth languages.

That's the assumption I've been working under so far, but if I were a journalist, would I think referring to Xyzdesh as Khizdesh or the Memnonian nation is likely to sell more papers? IIRC the name "India" comes from Persia via Greece, "China" comes from India via Persia, and "Japan" comes from China. (I looked it up. Wikipedia says that "China" came from the Persian language used on the Indian subcontinent, not from actual Persian territories.) The West only seems to assign new names when nations break away and adopt new names in living memory.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:39 am 
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What is the biology of the Keruxti?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:02 pm 
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cromulant wrote:
What is the biology of the Keruxti?

Thanks. I'm not going to try drawing them using my touchpad, but here are some notes:

They have cell structure, they are Carbon-based and need water to survive, but that's where the similarities end. Not even all life on Mars descends from one common ancestor. This presents some unique challenges for Martian digestive systems.

They develop nutrient deficiency disorders unless they have certain kinds of low radiation in their diet. High and/or unusual kinds of radiation can be poisonous, however.

They see many, many more colors than us, but their specific abilities would not be useful to us because we don't normally need to see radiation.

They have an ornamental crown that that conveys some linguistically relevant signals by exposing different kinds of radiation. This is one of the most common points made by those who want to make the earth safe for humans. These signals are written down using combinations of letters. The Eyxin language family has four places, each one holding one of up to 16 letters. This means one look at the crown can represent up to 1 of 65,536 values. That's 256 by 256!

I see I have them talking with their butts instead of mouths. Fart-talking, essentially. That is probably straying into the territory of too silly.

Let me end with a question: There is a kind of replicator found on Mars that is difficult to judge as living or dead. (Loosely inspired by the Martian rock we have with tiny markings that look like they might have been made by living things.) I want a distant Keruxti ancestor to have incorporated a dubiously living replicator the way we incorporated the Mitochondrion. In some cells, this replicator is activated (which is not easy to do), turning it into part of a hard exoskeleton. This exoskeleton is much harder than mere dead cells or bone. It essentially has the consistency of rock. Is this within the realm of conceivability?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:38 pm 
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Sounds conceivable.

When you say out of their butts, you mean out of an area in which solid waste is disposed, or do you mean at the back side? It isn't too farfetched - turtles breathe thorugh their cloacas. But it wouldn't make any sound transcribable with the IPA. In fact, it probable wouldn't sound like communication at all to humans.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Really? I thought as long as the walls of the canal are sufficiently firm and the muscles in the canal are sufficiently flexible, I can have them make any sound I want.

But I haven't given much thought to this aspect of their physiology. (At first sight, it makes sense to me that their egestive system could be relatively straight and rigid if they have to ingest rock-like materials. What this a mistake? (What is the argument that it has to be twisty? Snakes have relatively straight egestive systems, right?*))

(Also, I thought cloacal respiration involved gases exchanged through the skin. Let me check. (According to Wikipedia, they do pump in the water, which is what matters.))

(It occurs to me just now that the crown might be too much like Almea's Ktuvoks. I could change it to something else. It didn't start out as a crown and I'm not particularly attached to it.)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:18 pm 
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*No wait, that doesn't matter if the breathing happens near the entrance. I'm confusing myself.

How about this: They have something like cloacal respiration. (Thanks, mèþru!) Because they ingest rock-like material, they get digestive benefits like ostriches. To handle this diet, the lining of their egestive tract is much firmer than ours. They also need some way to expel the rock-like material properly, which is why they have flexible muscles near the anal region. This allows them to talk shit to their heart's content, but their range of articulation is more limited than ours. They use their radiation-exposing organ to make up for this.

That seems to hang together rather nicely. What do you think?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:22 pm 
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1. I have a question about the thematic appearance of the Keruxti. The Koran says the worst kind of jinn look like black dogs, so my current design for the Keruxti looks like hellhounds.* (This might actually be from hadith. I had forgotten.) Is any of this a bad idea for Mars or anything else I've said about them?

I currently have something looking vaguely dog-like, but with no head or mouth. Where there should be a neck, there is a head-like protrusion with three eyes, the middle "eye" shooting radiation. Six limbs, with the front two being arm-like, the middle set being halfway between arms and legs, and a set of legs bringing up the rear. They rise on two legs when needed, and when they do, you can see a gash underneath, which is the mouth. Jagged rocks for nails, and rocky coverings throughout.

So the theme is unmistakably "horror". If a medieval Arab saw that walking down the street at night, they would have no doubts about what they had seen. My sketch might be unsafe to show to impressionable children.

2. There might or might not be a problem with something else:

In my notes, the name Keruxti means witty. It's the sapiens in "Homo Sapiens", basically. For them, ker, or wit, is also synonymous with language (in particular, the ability to speak well). Most of them originally regarded humans as semi-animalistic because there is no way for us to display 1 of potentially 65,536 symbols at a time. (Though none of their natlangs use all of them.) For them, we can barely speak at all, so they refer to us as halfwits.

Well, if radioactive communication is so important to them, maybe their whole language would be oriented towards that. Letters would primarily represent distinguishable frequencies (I say "frequencies", but this is not gamma radiation! What would be a less misleading word here?), but would secondarily be recombined to represent any farts they used to clarify their point. But there are arguments on the other side too.

Sound, unlike radiation, carries around bends. You don't have to look directly at the person who is speaking. How much slower is the information rate really? You have to put up a radiation combination long enough for people to catch it. Each combination takes only 4 of 16 letters to represent. (These are inspired by those random letter combinations in the Koran like Alif Lam Mim.) Caspian speech has 21 letters. True, they cannot be combined in any order, but how long could it possibly take to convey an equivalent amount of information on average? There is actually a right answer to this question, but it is a very messy calculation that I'm too lazy to perform right away.

What do you think?

(Since there is no obviously right answer to the overall dilemma, different cultures will end up with different strategies.)

3. No matter how lush Mars is in my imagination, its atmosphere would probably still be thinner than earth's, right? Are there sounds that are more appropriate to a thinner atmosphere?

*My mother once told me she believes in space aliens because they are actually jinn. This is not how jinn are understood in Islam. Xyzdesh mythology says the first divine king was lava/fire. Very tenuously, the Keruxti believe they were created from fire like the jinn, but so were most created things beyond a certain point in history.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:47 pm 
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More biology questions:

1. I placed Keruxti respiratory system in the rear so that dust isn't blown directly into their lungs (or at least block their nostrils, to avoid exaggeration) when they are crawling forwards in a storm. Is my thinking right that although this wouldn't provide complete protection, it would help, like camels camels closing their nostrils?

2. Would rock claws help or hinder navigating the rocky desert landscape they evolved in? The claws wear down or break off, but they always grow back like shark teeth.

3. I want Keruxti tribes to be ruled by female dominance hierarchies like spotted hyenas. Should this, or their intelligence, in any way be connected to whether they should primarily be hunters or scavengers?

(BTW, this is why goddesses are prominent in their religions. Apart from jinn, hyenas are another reason I wanted them caniform. Also, Vorticons.)

(Yeah, I'm working on some Martian cultures that lean more heavily on radioactive communication. One culture is going to have letters dedicated to it, and so on.)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:33 pm 
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I took six stabs. Hopefully I finished everything I started.

1. Does the Mars of your conworld have the same physical properties as the real Mars? If so: a vaguely dog-like form seems compatible with the terrain of Mars. Due to the low gravity, it could be quite large, and yet not very strong. But biochemically, how does this work? You said it needs water. How does it drink? Does it breathe CO2?; what is the metabolic process?, what are the waste gases? You say it eats rocks--what are the nutrients in a rock? How did it evolve? Etc. So, is a vaguely dog-like form viable on Mars? The answers are "yes" and "need more information." Of course, you can handwave all the hard science away; it might be completely irrelevant for your style and genre. But you question suggests you do want to engage these questions a bit.

2. I'd think between sound and radiation, one of them would probably have a role similar to hand gestures: generally, a secondary means of communication. We typically use our hands subconsciously and interpretatively when we talk, sort of pantomiming our thoughts, everyone with their own style and characteristic stock gestures. And we have the ability to take this undeveloped, vague secondary mode of communication and develope it into an actual language capable of expressing anything a spoken language can. Personally, if I were you, I'd have the farts take on this role.

3. If Mars can be lush in your imagination, why is the atmosphere necessarily thin? I mean, you are radically imagining the entire planet. Anyway...the Martian atmosphere is a terrible medium for sound. Everything is much quieter and sound doesn't travel as far. A scream becomes a whisper, banging on trashcans becomes the tinkling of castanets. Apparently sound is lower as well on Mars, because sound is slower.

Lower frequency sound waves apparently travel further on Earth than high frequency sound waves; this would probably be true on Mars as well. So maybe the farts should be subsonic.

-----

1. Backward facing respiratory apparati would definitely help. As you note, it wouldn't keep all dust out of the lungs, but "helping" at all is all evolution needs, and this seems like it would help significantly. Unless there's a cost I'm overlooking.

2. Claws could be useful if they have to do a lot of climbing. I don't think they'd confer any advantage just traveling over an open rocky plain, and could even be a hindrance, since they are brittle and could break, and traction isn't really an issue the way it would be on ice. For traveling over open rocky plains, I think you'd want something tough, but with a lot of give. A leathery paw, maybe.

3. I don't know of a reason why a matriarchal structure would limit whether they're predators or scavengers. Do the males live in the same society, or do they just become loners?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:05 pm 
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cromulant wrote:
I took six stabs. Hopefully I finished everything I started.

Thank you!

cromulant wrote:
1. Does the Mars of your conworld have the same physical properties as the real Mars?

My goals are: 1. To have somewhat human-interactable aliens and Mars as it could have been in the imagination of old SF, a harsh desert planet that still supports life, 2. without losing touch with reality. I have previously worked on a conworld with incomprehensibly alien aliens, but this time, I want to have my cake and eat it too.

cromulant wrote:
If so: a vaguely dog-like form seems compatible with the terrain of Mars. Due to the low gravity, it could be quite large, and yet not very strong.

Ideally, I would prefer to have a Yorp-like anatomy, but that stereotypical alien body type has no hands! Okay, suppose I add in hands. Even then, I'm having difficulty imagining an evolutionary path for that specific body type in a rocky desert with dust storms. It doesn't look good at running and it doesn't look good at attacking. Maybe evolving intelligence will be sufficient to get past such mundane hurdles? But supposing tool use and tribal coordination make body types irrelevant, how exactly will they hunt down four-legged prey waddling along in Yorp bodies armed only with stone age tech? I'll keep thinking about it. Suggestions are welcome. I'm also looking for hard science fiction with aliens of that sort if it exists.

cromulant wrote:
But biochemically, how does this work? You said it needs water. How does it drink?

Carves out ice using rocky claws and melts it inside the body. Radiation helps maintain homeostasis above freezing point.

cromulant wrote:
Does it breathe CO2?; what is the metabolic process?, what are the waste gases?

Nope, oxygen. Mars has oxygen in my headcanon. Ancestors of the Keruxti started life in the oceans. Some of their descendants dragged themselves up onto land, which was lucky, because the oceans gradually shrank into polluted lakes of ice. Nowadays, they grow large numbers of plants in urban orchards. Well, large compared to their relatively small population size. They use low tech scrubbers to dispose of CO2. Most of their pre-contact technology is specialized in the field of surviving on Mars and weaponry designed to seize those resources without destroying them. Mars still supports life, but barely. This inhospitable environment encouraged strong tribal solidarity before they developed advanced technology. Technology developed naturally out of their struggle to survive.

cromulant wrote:
You say it eats rocks--what are the nutrients in a rock? How did it evolve?

Radioactive minerals and radioactive pieces of exoskeleton from other animals. Temperatures are very low on Mars, but Martian lifeforms can maintain homeostasis above the freezing point of water with some help from radioactivity. Martian life has long had to cope with radioactivity because their planet does not block as much radiation as ours. Technology related to radioactive materials (mining them, creating them, etc.) were some of the most booming businesses in precontact Mars, and that is the scene the cold war powers tried to elbow their way into. Unlike traditional cultures on earth they had previously had dealings with, Martians have an advantage over humans in war because certain kinds of nuclear weapons that damage our ecologies barely make a dent in theirs.

cromulant wrote:
Of course, you can handwave all the hard science away; it might be completely irrelevant for your style and genre. But you question suggests you do want to engage these questions a bit.

A bit? Bring it on! Anything you can think of.

cromulant wrote:
2. I'd think between sound and radiation, one of them would probably have a role similar to hand gestures: generally, a secondary means of communication. We typically use our hands subconsciously and interpretatively when we talk, sort of pantomiming our thoughts, everyone with their own style and characteristic stock gestures. And we have the ability to take this undeveloped, vague secondary mode of communication and develope it into an actual language capable of expressing anything a spoken language can. Personally, if I were you, I'd have the farts take on this role.

Thanks for the suggestion. But do you realize that you have to be looking at the person who is using radioactive communication? Isn't that the reason hand gestures are secondary for us? Why wouldn't it be the same for the Keruxti? I don't think I can give them chameleon eyes without taking away good depth perception, right? That would be bad news for an active predatory species, as would having light as their primary mode of communication. I can't have a hunting party having to look at each other any time they want to communicate something more advanced than prearranged signals!

cromulant wrote:
3. If Mars can be lush in your imagination, why is the atmosphere necessarily thin? I mean, you are radically imagining the entire planet.

Mars is by no means lush by earth standards, but even a rocky desert biome is relatively more lush than the real Mars. Sorry for not making this clear.

cromulant wrote:
Anyway...the Martian atmosphere is a terrible medium for sound. Everything is much quieter and sound doesn't travel as far. A scream becomes a whisper, banging on trashcans becomes the tinkling of castanets. Apparently sound is lower as well on Mars, because sound is slower.

Lower frequency sound waves apparently travel further on Earth than high frequency sound waves; this would probably be true on Mars as well. So maybe the farts should be subsonic.

The best compromise I can think of right now is making the Martian atmosphere thicker than it is, but still incredibly thin for humans. Keruxti voices would have more power than ours anyway, since they would have to breathe in a lot more air than we do. I will make Keruxti voices very deep, but keep it in the range of human hearing. I want to make it possible for humans to interact with Keruxti as long as they use radiation shielding. I also want the Keruxti to be able to survive on earth using some clever technology, but without having an active modern tech industry.

cromulant wrote:
1. Backward facing respiratory apparati would definitely help. As you note, it wouldn't keep all dust out of the lungs, but "helping" at all is all evolution needs, and this seems like it would help significantly. Unless there's a cost I'm overlooking.

2. Claws could be useful if they have to do a lot of climbing. I don't think they'd confer any advantage just traveling over an open rocky plain, and could even be a hindrance, since they are brittle and could break, and traction isn't really an issue the way it would be on ice. For traveling over open rocky plains, I think you'd want something tough, but with a lot of give. A leathery paw, maybe.

Thanks.

cromulant wrote:
3. I don't know of a reason why a matriarchal structure would limit whether they're predators or scavengers. Do the males live in the same society, or do they just become loners?

They stay. Also, the spotted hyena analogy is not completely apt since their behavior is more competitive than I think this Martian climate would allow.

PS. Mars would have a thinner atmosphere because of lower gravity, given the composition of gases required to keep the aliens alive on earth through a dark age.

PPS. Of course, hand gestures also have the disadvantage of keeping the hands busy, which does not apply to light emission.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:54 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:25 pm
Posts: 2066
How much weaker than earth creatures do Martians have to be in terms of muscle mass before having claws to loosely anchor themselves to the ground as they run ceases to be an asset?

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