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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:33 pm 
Avisaru
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I've been planning to use a desiderative mood ("to desire to X"). Has anyone seen a grammatical mood/aspect meaning "to intend to X"? I would see it as sitting "between" the desiderative & indicative: first you want to do something, then you intend to do it, and finally you do it. I haven't seen anything like this, so I don't know what to call it. "Intentive" seems most likely, or perhaps "volitive", but that appears to be associated with other mood types (desiderative being one).

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:15 pm 
Sanci
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perhaps a necessitative-desiderative compound mood? or you could just use the necessitative and twist its purpose a bit - I pretty much always do that with my moods

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessitative_mood

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:46 pm 
Smeric
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A mood modifies the whole sentence, not just the subject of the verb. e.g. when I say "i wish it would rain", the subject is "it", not "I". this isnt possible to do with intent: *"I intend it to rain" the necessitative seems to be only used with 1st person meaning, e.g. "you need to go" implies "i command you to go" ... so effectively the necessitative mood is just another way to express the jussive, as is English "hopefully".

I think your idea is perfectly reasonable but you might get off track if you try to construct it as a mood ... it seems like something more likely to make use of derivation and then behave like a normal verb. Another test is, can this mood be combined with other moods? e.g. "i hope you intend to finish that icecream". if so, it's not likely that it's a mood itself.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:47 pm 
Smeric
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Optative?


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:47 pm 
Avisaru
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Maybe it would help if I clarify what my plans are.

The "intentive" would signal the subject's intent, not the speaker. So it would be "I intend to run", "You intend to run", "He intends to run", etc. In the "rain" example, it would be "It intends to rain", which of course doesn't make sense, but might be a "correct" sentence.

The intentive would, I think, be exclusive with the other grammatical moods. I have the following moods in the language:

indicative: He runs.

intentive: He intends to run.

desiderative: He wants to run.

subjunctive: He should run. (Subjunctive is another one I couldn't find a perfect name for. Made a thread about this quite a while ago.)

commissive/hortative/jussive: Let him run! / He shall run.

optative: May he run!

imperative: Run!


The issue I'm having with naming is that the optative, necessitative, volitive, and several other moods seem to express need, desire, wish, intent, etc. on the part of the speaker, rather than for the verb's subject. There are natlangs with a desiderative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderative_mood), but I haven't seen anything similar for intent. It's likely no natlang does this, and so a new term "intentive" might be my best option.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 11:03 pm 
Sanci
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Vardelm wrote:
The "intentive" would signal the subject's intent, not the speaker. So it would be "I intend to run", "You intend to run", "He intends to run", etc. In the "rain" example, it would be "It intends to rain", which of course doesn't make sense, but might be a "correct" sentence.

so it's like an expected action? like English supposed to or should?

either way, I have never heard of, can't think of, and can't find a specific term for such a mood. coining "intentive" may be your best bet

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 4:10 am 
Sanno
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Vardelm wrote:
There are natlangs with a desiderative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderative_mood), but I haven't seen anything similar for intent. It's likely no natlang does this, and so a new term "intentive" might be my best option.

It might just be that no natlang distinguishes between a "desiderative" vs. an "intentive" mood, at least with regard to fully grammaticalized morphology, so the terminology to distinguish them hasn't been necessary so far.

(Of course, many natlangs can express the distinction. English even does this in a somewhat-grammaticalized way, even though this is not usually called "mood" in grammatical descriptions: wanna vs. gonna)

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 4:28 am 
Avisaru
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This seems perfectly plausible, but also bear in mind that real life languages rarely have a separate morpheme for every modal form. What you're talking about for all intents and purposes sounds nearly synonymous with the usage of the future-in-past when used in the past and the future when used in the present.

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 9:07 am 
Avisaru
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Cedh wrote:
wanna vs. gonna)

I haven't worked out morphology yet, but That example illustrates about what I was thinking for the desiderative & intentive: that they were recently (or still are!) verbs that are often reduced to an affix, but can still be used in full form.


Yng wrote:
This seems perfectly plausible...

Oh good! It's always a relief to see someone else thinks that about a feature that's a little "out there".

Yng wrote:
...but also bear in mind that real life languages rarely have a separate morpheme for every modal form.

Yep, this one won't either. There will be a few more that are particles, and the rest verbs/adverbs/etc.

This is for a rework of my Devani language, which also has evidentials. Moods/modals/etc. are a major feature.


Yng wrote:
What you're talking about for all intents and purposes sounds nearly synonymous with the usage of the future-in-past when used in the past and the future when used in the present.

Also yep. There will be some slight difference in usage compared to the future tense, comparable to English "I will do X" vs. "I am going to/gonna do X".

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 9:16 am 
Avisaru
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Dynamic Commissive? I specify dynamic since you are focusing on the fact that the conditioning factor(s) is/are internal to the A/S (e.g., ability, knowledge) rather than a deontic where the conditioning factors are external (e.g., speaker's permission, desire, direction).

So for example:

Deontic Commissive: “he shall get his cake too!” – i.e. speaker commits to realizing this event.

Dynamic Commissive: “he shall get his cake too!” – i.e. 3rd.sg is committed to getting their cake (and eating it too?).

Palmer’s Mood and Modality p. 77 notes Lisu, a Lolo-Burmese, as having a fairly Byzantine system of dynamic modality including terms for: ability based on – (1) knowledge, (2) physical capability, (3) social acceptability, (4) freedom from taboo, (5) lack of hinderance, (6) sufficient courage/dare. Given the richness of this NatLang system, having a dynamic commissive seems reasonable.

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 9:37 am 
Avisaru
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2+3 clusivity wrote:
Palmer’s Mood and Modality p. 77 notes Lisu, a Lolo-Burmese, as having a fairly Byzantine system of dynamic modality including terms for: ability based on – (1) knowledge, (2) physical capability, (3) social acceptability, (4) freedom from taboo, (5) lack of hinderance, (6) sufficient courage/dare. Given the richness of this NatLang system, having a dynamic commissive seems reasonable.

OMG that's cool!!!!!!!!!!!! Time to do some reading! :-D

The "dynamic commissive" makes sense. Thinking about maybe just using that as part of the description still using "intentive" as a name.

On the other hand, maybe just call it "commissive", noting that it's dynamic, and then for my "commissive/hortative/jussive" just using "hortative".

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 5:27 am 
Avisaru
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I have a similar thing in my conlang, where I think of one of the forms as meaning basically "intend to". In practice, it's the default future tense. When you think about it, that's pretty much what English does, too – if I'm not mistaken, "will" historically means "want".

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 8:02 am 
Avisaru
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Chuma wrote:
When you think about it, that's pretty much what English does, too – if I'm not mistaken, "will" historically means "want".

Yep. Etymology.com says it's from Old English willan, meaning "to desire or wish". Makes sense. The future is usually (always?) going to have some component of intent, planning, unfulfilled obligation, or probability based likely response to circumstances or prior habit.

I think of "will" as being a future tense, and "going to" as a prospective aspect, since you can use "going to" to construct a future-in-the-past. The desiderative & intentive would probably be more similar to "going to", while my future tense will be a true future.

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 9:09 am 
Avisaru
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Haha, reading further in Palmer at pp. 81-82, I found that Maidu is described as having an "intentive-optative" (X is "going to") and Tonkawa as having a "Intentive" ("I shall catch him").

If you want precedent, you've got it now.

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 9:43 am 
Avisaru
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2+3 clusivity wrote:
Haha, reading further in Palmer at pp. 81-82, I found that Maidu is described as having an "intentive-optative" (X is "going to") and Tonkawa as having a "Intentive" ("I shall catch him").

If you want precedent, you've got it now.

#happydance

:-D

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 6:35 pm 
Sanci
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I also just realized that old skourene has an intentive mood. you could look at that too

http://www.zompist.com/lenani.htm#othermoods

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:04 am 
Avisaru
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bbbosborne wrote:
I also just realized that old skourene has an intentive mood. you could look at that too

http://www.zompist.com/lenani.htm#othermoods


I mean I think Vardelm is looking for examples of real languages

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 8:44 am 
Avisaru
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Yng wrote:
I mean I think Vardelm is looking for examples of real languages

Yes.

That said, if the natlang precedents didn't exist, then what's plausible enough for Zompist is probably plausible enough for me. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:57 am 
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Sorry for being late to the party.

Quote:
"It intends to rain", which of course doesn't make sense

What if you see really dark clouds heading your way?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:12 pm 
Avisaru
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jal wrote:
Quote:
"It intends to rain", which of course doesn't make sense

What if you see really dark clouds heading your way?

Touché.

I like the idea of a culture that sees everything as having a spirit anthropomorphizing natural events to the extent that "intent" could be grammaticalized into a future tense.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:42 pm 
Smeric
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Except that you probably don't need the cultural hoo-hah for that - it seems like a perfectly natural development to me.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:50 pm 
Avisaru
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True, but hoo-hah is fun!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:45 pm 
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hoo-hah makes grammar all the better.

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