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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:08 pm 
Lebom
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A couple typos/nitpicks in the disclaimer (bold = add, italics = change or omit)

1.1 DISCLAIMER
This document regards the subject material, Proto-Deithas, as both a language and a human culture. It should be noted, however, that the geographic location, cultures, and languages contained herein this document (should either be just "herein" or "within this document", not "herein this document") are not related to any locations, cultures, or languages spoken (optionally replace with "existing") on Earth. (you leave out "on"; parallelism issues)

That is, this document covers the work of a consciously constructed culture, on a fictional world. There are no artifacts of the Proto-Deithas that actually exist, whether we speak of the language or proposed archaeological evidence. Any similarity contained in this document to any one, living or dead, anywhere, or any event that has taken or is going to take place, is purely coincidental. (parallelism mismatch)

<hr>

I know parallelism is primarily a stylistic issue, but when dealing with something like a legal disclaimer it's good to be overly cautious and make sure nothing could be misinterpreted.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:45 pm 
Avisaru
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Okay:

Pg. v : "This document contains the information of Proto-Deithas, a fictional language presented as a reconstructed language, based on its ancestors." Presumably you mean based on its descendants, not ancestors.

Pg. v : "father language" is kind of an odd/unusual term...What's up with that?

Pg. v : "...the original proto-language no longer fit the data." Should be "fits"

Pg. 1 : "...certifies that of the varying nations, tongues, and races of mankind that belong to the Deithas group, that a common background..." "That" is repeated: it should read "...group, a common..."

Pg. 1 : "Asks thou"? Shame on you! Surely this should be "askest"?

Pg. 2 : "...kingdom of beyond the sea..." I don't think "of" is intended here.

Pg. 2 : "...the earliest records of the Ɛzɔṛḍ language dates..." You mean "date".

Pg. 2 : "Irrigation, farming, and silk-manufacturing was brought..." Should be "...were brought..."

Pg. 5 : Thumbs up for Marshallese-y vowel system!

Pg. 7 : "Vowels, to break up hiatus, can undergo disyllabification." You mean "desyllabification," as it's spelled in the table which follows.

Pg. 7 : For "nasal+nasal > prenasalized stop" sandhi, how is the POA of the resulting stop determined? Which of the two nasal consonants influences it?

Pg. 7 : In sect. 3.5, since it's modifying the word "syllable", I think the term here technically should be "antipenultimate" rather than "antipenult".

Pg. 8 : The example given to illustrate the change [+voiced][-voiced] > [-voiced][-voiced] doesn't actually seem to show it. Was the original PD word supposed to be jábs or something?

Pg. 8 : Rockin' sound changes, by the way. Or at least, I like the way Ɛzɔṛḍ ends up looking as a result.

Pg. 9 : "...inflecting for the aspect-mood in the all finite forms of the verb..." Don't know if you meant "...in the finite...", "...in all finite...", or "...in all the finite..."

Pg. 10 : "Substantives are any word which are..." Should be "words".

Pg. 10 : "Rather, the class plays significance on morphological features." I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean?

Pg. 11 : Here I'll echo the others who have praised the formation of the oblique for monsyllables. My one question concerns the strategies involving classifiers/diminutives/augmentatives. You say these are only applied in cases where there will be no change of meaning, but will this nonetheless cause any ambiguity? Like, if you wanted to say "great big lizard", in the nominative, how would you distinguish it from preḫmáw "lizard (obl.)"?


More later


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:50 pm 
Lebom
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Whimemsz wrote:
Pg. 7 : In sect. 3.5, since it's modifying the word "syllable", I think the term here technically should be "antipenultimate" rather than "antipenult".


Antepenultimate, actually.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:14 pm 
Avisaru
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Whoops. Yes, typo, sorry.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:44 am 
Avisaru
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@bulbaquil, I adjusted my current copy of the text to the wording provided. Thank you!

@Whimemsz, instead of doing a bullet list of saying what was fixed and wasn't: The typos have been corrected; thank you for catching those.

In reference to "father language", has changed to "ancestral speech." Should be better, no?

The three-vowel system, I was hoping, would show that simpler vowel systems can be complex without too much problem and worry--but also coolly so. I'm a fan. For nasal + nasal > prenasal stop, it assimilates to the latter nasal; this has been entered into the text.

I'm glad you like Ɛzɔṛḍ, and hopefully I can put together a brief summary of it once I'm finished here--I love the way it looks and sounds, even if it is an odd-duck dialect of Proto-Deithas.

The statement "the class plays significance on morphological features" makes a boatload of sense in my head. It shouldn't. But it does. Reworded for clarity.

Now, for the issue: How do you avoid ambiguity classifiers/augmentatives/diminutives? The example you provide, preḫmáw, is already in the oblique; so lizard-aug would be préḫmaw. How you differentiate the two in the oblique? There is no strategy, or not one that has been discovered.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:48 pm 
Avisaru
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Woo, more comments! I neglected to mention in my first post the clear but not overdone similarity to PIE. I think it strikes a good balance between the familiar and the original.

Pg. 12: I'm curious, since you say that the genitive NP construction is "typically" G aḫ N, whether there are other orderings or constructions? And do they have the same meaning, or are there subtle differences or whatnot?

Pg. 12: I like the originality of having indefinites specially marked while definites are the unmarked noun form.

Pg. 12: "The indefinite article agrees with the nouns inherent gender" -- should be "noun's", if I'm parsing it right.

Pg. 12: "...depending on whether or not the word is an open syllable or a closed syllable" -- should be "...the word ends in an open...etc."

Pg. 14: Note that the distinction is "proximate" vs. "obviative", not "obviate".

Pg. 15: When are the full vs. clitic forms of the possessive pronouns used?

Pg. 17: In 5.3.b, the gloss of jajábṭad has four morphemes, while the word in PD itself is only segmented into three, so I don't know how it's actually supposed to be segmented. Actually, judging by later examples like 5.3.e, it looks like the word should probably be ḫajajábṭad? (i.e. the 3s prefix appears to be missing)

Pg. 17: For 5.3.g, if you're being consistent it seems like you should gloss me-ḫís as "12s-be"

Imma have to save the adverbs and verbs for later, sorry!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:43 pm 
Avisaru
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Whimemsz wrote:
Woo, more comments! I neglected to mention in my first post the clear but not overdone similarity to PIE. I think it strikes a good balance between the familiar and the original.


And I've been too lazy to really try to give this a good response. Sorry about that!

Quote:
Pg. 12: I'm curious, since you say that the genitive NP construction is "typically" G aḫ N, whether there are other orderings or constructions? And do they have the same meaning, or are there subtle differences or whatnot?


There's ambiguity; the reconstruction assumes G aḫ N, but it barely scratches the reality. To give a bit of a spoiler alert, it's a construction of mutual relationship; in pre-Proto-Deithas, it was used only with people, but it extended out to objects as well--because there is no definition of possessor or possessee, the daughter languages settled it.

Quote:
Pg. 12: I like the originality of having indefinites specially marked while definites are the unmarked noun form.


I struggled with this for a while. I'm glad the outcome came out well.

Quote:
Pg. 12: "The indefinite article agrees with the nouns inherent gender" -- should be "noun's", if I'm parsing it right.

Pg. 12: "...depending on whether or not the word is an open syllable or a closed syllable" -- should be "...the word ends in an open...etc."

Pg. 14: Note that the distinction is "proximate" vs. "obviative", not "obviate".


Thank you for the corrections.

Quote:
Pg. 15: When are the full vs. clitic forms of the possessive pronouns used?


The clitic forms are generally used for metrical purposes; as well, there appears to a sense of informality behind it.

Quote:
Pg. 17: In 5.3.b, the gloss of jajábṭad has four morphemes, while the word in PD itself is only segmented into three, so I don't know how it's actually supposed to be segmented. Actually, judging by later examples like 5.3.e, it looks like the word should probably be ḫajajábṭad? (i.e. the 3s prefix appears to be missing)

Pg. 17: For 5.3.g, if you're being consistent it seems like you should gloss me-ḫís as "12s-be"


The text has been fixed; should've been a- (I made a revision in the prefixes that I hadn't updated in another section.) It's all fixed now--thank you.

Quote:
Imma have to save the adverbs and verbs for later, sorry!


I eagerly await!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:27 pm 
Avisaru
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Woops, I forgot to finish this. Sorry! But maybe this is a good system--I'll only keep looking through it if you keep responding so the thread stays near the top of the page to keep me from overlooking it.

Anyway I don't actually have time to go through the rest of it tonight (prolly not tomorrow either, because I have a lot of homework). But hopefully I can get to it Friday?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:35 pm 
Avisaru
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Feel free to take your time--I'm just glad for the feedback. I'm still drawing a total blank on how to write about syntax. Specifically, I've been blocked on indirect statements and subordinating clauses--for some reason, I can't put them together unless I know how to describe them, which I cannot do at the moment. Odd, isn't it?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:58 am 
Avisaru
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Alrighty.

Pg. 18: What's the difference between all the different animate and inanimate genitive interrogative determiners (dúnaḫ vs. ntaḫ, etc.)?

Pg. 19: I'm confused by this statement: "Basic adverbs are words derived from roots, without undergoing a derivational process". How are they "derived from" roots if they don't undergo a derivational process? Are you referring to zero-derivation or something here? Or are these basic adverbs roots themselves, rather than being connected to any other existing roots?



Sorry, gotta go; I'll keep reading when I can!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:32 pm 
Avisaru
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Whimemsz wrote:
Alrighty.

Pg. 18: What's the difference between all the different animate and inanimate genitive interrogative determiners (dúnaḫ vs. ntaḫ, etc.)?


Ntaḫ is the abbreviated form of dúnaḫ. I should specify that. Or... did you mean something else?

Quote:
Pg. 19: I'm confused by this statement: "Basic adverbs are words derived from roots, without undergoing a derivational process". How are they "derived from" roots if they don't undergo a derivational process? Are you referring to zero-derivation or something here? Or are these basic adverbs roots themselves, rather than being connected to any other existing roots?


Zero-derivation and primary suffixes, I mean--secondary suffixes do produce adverbs, but are much more limited in meaning.

Keep in 'em coming!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:51 pm 
Avisaru
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Pg. 21 : Minor typo--in the first sentence of 5.5.4, you've written "Poto-Deithas"

Pg. 21 : I can't figure out what this means? "That is, "here" is refers to the subject or, if unspecified, to that of the speaker" ((and I don't mean the extra "is"))

Pp. 23ff : I really like the verb affix system. It seems to "fit" together really well (even though I dunno what I mean by that). However, I have to admit I don't really get the distinction between primary and secondary prefixes. You say the secondary forms are used with "non-unique perfective stems"--what do you mean by "non-unique", exactly? I also don't know what you mean by: "This system appears unique compared to the primary series as its retention is a recent innovation."

Pg. 24 : Did you mean to write this? "The detransitive personal markings are marked differently than the active endings." I mean, the active is marked with prefixes, not "endings", right? Or were you referring to something other than the primary/secondary prefixes, and I'm just being stupid?

Pg. 25 : I have no idea what you mean by this: "The imperfective aspect expresses action as though it were a shape, but has limited to no impact."


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:45 pm 
Avisaru
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Whimemsz wrote:
Pg. 21 : Minor typo--in the first sentence of 5.5.4, you've written "Poto-Deithas"


Thank you!

Quote:
Pg. 21 : I can't figure out what this means? "That is, "here" is refers to the subject or, if unspecified, to that of the speaker" ((and I don't mean the extra "is"))


I should really be clearer about some of these concepts! The two-axis system works as thus: *sam and *ḫem are proximate and obviative, respectively. *sam is proximate to topicality--it is therefore close to wherever the subject is, or if uncertain, to where the speaker is, and the same goes for *ḫem. So, *smíyaḫ generally translates as 'hence', or from here--from here could be from the location of a 3rd person, from where the listener is standing, or the location of the speaker, all depending on context.

I'll prepare a few examples to discuss this concept. It seems worth going more into.

Quote:
Pp. 23ff : I really like the verb affix system. It seems to "fit" together really well (even though I dunno what I mean by that). However, I have to admit I don't really get the distinction between primary and secondary prefixes. You say the secondary forms are used with "non-unique perfective stems"--what do you mean by "non-unique", exactly? I also don't know what you mean by: "This system appears unique compared to the primary series as its retention is a recent innovation."


Referencing forward would help me, I'd gather. Non-unique perfective stems are stems that are identical to either the imperfective or the retrospective stem (the latter only occurs where the verb is 'natively' retrospective, i.e. the retrospective stem is the least marked stem). For instance, the forms of the verb root *yéŋ- "breathe" in the first person singular imperfective, perfective, and retrospective are: *méyeŋ, myéng, and meyéŋaħ. Again, examples will definitely help make this clear.

Quote:
Pg. 24 : Did you mean to write this? "The detransitive personal markings are marked differently than the active endings." I mean, the active is marked with prefixes, not "endings", right? Or were you referring to something other than the primary/secondary prefixes, and I'm just being stupid?


I meant affixes! Also, mood-aspect is represented as a suffix, but I end up going into that later.

Quote:
Pg. 25 : I have no idea what you mean by this: "The imperfective aspect expresses action as though it were a shape, but has limited to no impact."


Neither do I anymore. It made sense when I wrote it, is all I can tell you. I'll find a better way of describing it.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:24 am 
Avisaru
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Bumping for more input. Updated grammar will be up either when Whim finishes or someone else can contribute.

I've also been lazy, which is a shame.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:10 pm 
Avisaru
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Oh snap. I did it again :(

Anyway, I will get to this but I do have homework etc. to do so it might take a day or two...


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:00 pm 
Avisaru
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I'm looking forward to section 7.3.2 "Complex Sentences". You have not put much in there yet about biclausal and multiclausal constructions.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:00 am 
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The link seems to not be working.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:48 pm 
Avisaru
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Try it now!

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:52 pm 
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Thanks! i haven't read it yet, but i will and get back to you with comments! i am new, and i don't know much about languages yet, it looks really well done! in section 1.2 though, shouldn't it say based on its daughters? or did i just read it wrong?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:29 pm 
Avisaru
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This is a bump. I've uploaded the Proto-Deithas reference grammar with all the corrections already submitted (it's in my sig, with an updated URL). I've also included a small example of how I'll be handling the lexicon--if there's any issue of reading it, I can easily fix it. I've also tried a difference approach in example display in Chapter 7.3.1 Structure of Syntax. I'll see if that provides any clue on how to properly deal with it.

Coming up on the schedule is the Proto-North-Deithas sound changes, which comprises approximately 2000 years of language change. You can see a few example words in Chapter 8 Lexicon. The greatest change Proto-North-Deithas has is expanding the three vowel system to some 17 vowels; a slight grammatical indicator can be gleaned from the examples: Animate nouns use the indefinite singular suffix as a nominative marker. If you see any errors or require any elaboration, I'd be more than happy to comply.

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Last edited by Neek on Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:31 pm 
Avisaru
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TomHChappell wrote:
I'm looking forward to section 7.3.2 "Complex Sentences". You have not put much in there yet about biclausal and multiclausal constructions.


I'm not sure what else to put there, Tom! (Sorry for the late response). I've begun a slight note about how the language deals with multiple subjects, and so far the answer is fairly simple. If you have any suggestions on what other avenues I should approach, I'll be more than happy to proceed.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:24 am 
Lebom
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So that you know, Neek, the link in the topic opener is not only dead but appears to potentially lead to spyware/viruses. (The link in your sig is valid.)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:01 pm 
Avisaru
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Thank you. I'll get that updated along with the post title.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:42 pm 
Avisaru
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It's quite delightful.

My recommendation would be to put it on ice — you have more than enough to just work on daughter languages now.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:36 pm 
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Rock'n'roll.

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