[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 379: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4752: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4754: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4755: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4756: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
zompist bboard • View topic - Non-agricultural empires

zompist bboard

THIS IS AN ARCHIVE ONLY - see Ephemera
It is currently Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:46 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Non-agricultural empires
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:11 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:01 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Hyperborea
I've been thinking about a conland which grows into an empire without inventing agriculture. What would help make this more plausible? As always, I'm not the most zealous when it comes to realism, but I do like to get by without too many blatantly unrealistic details if possible.

Specifically I'm planning to put it in central America, if that makes any difference.

As Zomp explains in his book, hunter-gatherer cultures are less likely to develop larger nations, because there is nothing that a ruler can take from them or give them. But perhaps it's possible to think of some commodity that rulers might offer to the people, thereby building up their economic power? How about salt, for example?

Another problem is that such cultures tend to be a lot less dense, which makes it harder to support cities. So let's assume, to begin with, that this culture is at least relatively dense for a hunter-gatherer culture. It should presumably be possible for some of the people to become sedentary - they might for example live near a lake with lots of fish providing their immediate food needs. Then perhaps they can develop some slightly more advanced tools than the nomadic peoples, which they can also offer to trade. And if there are a few other things which the nomads want to trade with each other, a city will obviously act as a trade hub.

_________________



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:00 pm 
Niš
Niš

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:34 pm
Posts: 3
I don't know if a full Aztec or Roman style empire would be possible without any agriculture, but it's possible for a fairly complex civilization to grow without any farming. One good place to look at would be the Andes civiliations and the work of . The chiefdoms from the Pacific Northwest would also be a good example. If you want to have little to no agriculture just make sure there is an abundance of natural resources that make it so it's not required, like a ton of fish. Fishing may even be the easiest route, just make sure your culture begins to develop along the coast.

But if you're planning on putting your empire in central America you'll probably need at least a little agriculture. I don't know if the land had enough hunting or wild plants or good enough fishing to support that kind of cultural development, since all of the Mesoamerican cultures I'm familiar with had farming.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:29 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 281

_________________
MadBrain is a genius.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:12 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:50 pm
Posts: 568
Location: California


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:20 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 281

_________________
MadBrain is a genius.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:28 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:27 pm
Posts: 303
Nomadic empires, aside from the famous Mongols and Huns, are entirely possible. In fact, there were shitloads of large nomadic empires even before the Mongols, and many of them didn't even really conquer that much of agrarian civilizations. For instance:







There are several more, but I think the thing to notice about these types of nomadic empires in general is that - at least so Wikipedia says - they had confederation type governments, which meant they probably weren't that centralized, which makes sense, considering the fact they probably did not own large population centers anyways. However, some of them did control some powerful trading cities, particularly along the Silk Road, and I think using trade as a way to have cities pop up (cities popping up in the region between Region A and Region B because A and B are trading) is plausible.

_________________
I have a blog, unfortunately: http://imperialsenate.wordpress.com/
I think I think, therefore I think I am.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:25 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:01 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Hyperborea
Conquering, that's certainly an idea. But what I had in mind was that they would develop civilisation (including cities) and some sort of empire before agriculture existed in the area.

_________________



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:37 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:27 pm
Posts: 303

_________________
I have a blog, unfortunately: http://imperialsenate.wordpress.com/
I think I think, therefore I think I am.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:05 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:51 pm
Posts: 430
The trade thing sounds plausible. Another possibility is expansion through colonization. Maybe the nomads crossed a sea and settled in a new land, but contact with the mainland was retained, and a colonial empire was founded. And, if you want cities, maybe the colony had to have a place where the goverment would be, leading to the founding of a city.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:35 am 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:46 am
Posts: 1035
Location: Réunion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:02 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:01 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Hyperborea

_________________



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:11 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:38 pm
Posts: 285


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:23 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 281

_________________
MadBrain is a genius.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:01 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:46 am
Posts: 1035
Location: Réunion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:26 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:01 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Hyperborea

_________________



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:14 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 281

_________________
MadBrain is a genius.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:34 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:26 pm
Posts: 204
I think a problem that needs to be considered is why large cities would not develop agriculture.

That is, if you have hunter-gatherers living together in moderate to high density, they are going to want a surplus of food which they can develop through trade in addition to hunting and gathering. If any food is of the seed variety, eventually (say a two-three generations on the inside), enough seed will be spilled, lost, thrown out, or intentionally sown that wild patches will grow in that city. Again, eventually, plants and cross-bred plants would appear that grow more food, and from there, the process is almost unstoppable. if a surplus of high-yield plants can be had, it's unlikely for a line to be eaten entirely, and now agriculture is born.

To recap,
1) Influx of seeds through trade from many areas
2) Various sowing resulting wild patch cultivation (which has been evidenced in real-world Hunter-Gatherer societies, some CA Natives e.g.)
3) Higher yield plants whose lines survive shortages
4) Intentional planting (agriculture).

For those who are interested, I take this idea from Jane Jacobs' Economy of Cities.

So, to restate the question, if you don't want an agricultural base (to begin with), why did cities not develop agriculture?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:12 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:01 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Hyperborea

_________________



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:30 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:59 pm
Posts: 575
Location: Seoul
Typical hunter gatherer societies have a population density of about 0.1 per square mile (even lower in deserts and other poor environments). Seasonal collections of hunter gatherers today rarely exceed 100 people, and even then it's usually temporary and a result of water shortage. What of sedentary hunter gatherers? Well they managed to approach (but not exceed) one person per square mile in fishing villages, further inland not so much. So let's assume your population density gets up to one person per square mile, which is still pretty damn high for a permanent settlement, and will require some suspension of disbelief.

So how many people can live in your village? Let's set aside the issue of importing food for now, and see if they can get their food locally. Let's draw a circle half a day's walk from the village. That's how far your residents can walk to find food and still get back at night. If a person can comfortably walk 16 miles a day, that gives us a circle of radius 8 miles. The area is 201 square miles, enough to support 201 people. But remember this is stretching it quite a bit, asking our people to walk eight miles to find food in a ludicrously rich environment and then come back to trade at night or something. And bringing the food into the village is going to denude an entire region of food. Imagine you are a food importer who lives two days walk from the village. You gather one man-day worth of food to bring in to the village. You also have to eat this day, and eat the four days it will take you to walk to the village and back. So you have to gather six man-days worth of food in one day to stay in business. During this five day cycle, you've only brought one man-day of food into the village, so it would take five such food carriers to support one non-producing person in the village. This means for each person in the village we will need five people collecting a month's worth of food in less than a week. And that's if all the food can be found only two days away!

Frankly, I don't think this is going to work. You'll never get a population large enough to field an army or even a sizable bureaucracy. Just let them farm.

_________________
[quote="Nortaneous"]Is South Africa better off now than it was a few decades ago?[/quote]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:42 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:27 pm
Posts: 303

_________________
I have a blog, unfortunately: http://imperialsenate.wordpress.com/
I think I think, therefore I think I am.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:37 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:01 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Hyperborea
Cyb: Of course, there were lots of people in precolumbian America who farmed. I'm fully aware of that.

Brandrinn: That's a good calculation, but I'm not quite sure.

When your example guy collects one man-day worth of food (let's call it a "unit" for simplicity) to bring to the city, he has an average output of 1/5 unit/day delivered. But that's assuming he only delivers one unit each time, which would be very inefficient. Assuming that he collects six units in a day, he could just forage for one more day before leaving, bringing his output up to 1 unit/day.

The question is, how much can a guy carry? According to Planet Construction Kit, a marching soldier can carry about 70 pounds, and needs 3 pounds of food in a day. So he should easily manage 20 units.

Then we have to take into account that there's not an unlimited amount of food two days away either. Which is when this little exercise starts getting really messy. But let's simplify.
We look at an area five days' walk from the city. A carrier who doesn't do the foraging himself would have a minimum output of 1 unit/day. Someone needs to do the foraging - let's say you can forage 5 units/day. The radius is 10 times what you said, so the area is 100 times bigger, so the maximum population of that whole area is about 20 000. Result: 4000 foragers, 8000 carriers, 8000 city dwellers. That's basically under the assumption that all the food is five days away, so it's a low estimate.
(A more precise calculation should be a pretty neat exercise in calculus. But I'm just not in the mood. :P)

Then there are other modes of transport. If there are some kind of roads, it should be possible to move things a little bit more effectively. Why not invent the wheel? And of course, boats.

On an even less realistic note - you know what would be awesome? Unmanned boats! Suppose there is a river with a lot of little branches. The people place rocks or logs along each stream to make sure the edges of the stream are smooth, and then they have boats that are round, so they don't get caught on anything. The boats could even have like a roof, so they don't risk flipping over... okay, they could basically be barrels. Then the people would send the barrels/boats down the stream, and they would float along merrily all the way to the capital at the mouth of the river.
How come people don't do this? Maybe I'm just too tired to see why it's a stupid idea. Yep, probably time for bed. :)

_________________



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:55 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:59 pm
Posts: 575
Location: Seoul
Look, all of these calculations require a person to be able to collect an absurd amount of food in a day, and that this collection will not deplete the land so much that he can't go out the next day and do the same thing. So we might as well be talking about unicorns. Even sedentary hunter gatherers never achieved food productivity on this level. I'm telling you, the only way you're going to make this work is with farming or magic. Take your pick.

_________________
[quote="Nortaneous"]Is South Africa better off now than it was a few decades ago?[/quote]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:18 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:01 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Hyperborea
Oh, it's just a matter of how much reality needs to be twisted. :)

As for depleting the land - that's what the population limit in the calculation is for. We said that a square mile of land can support one person - that means he can go out and do the same thing the next day, right?
As for how much you can collect in a day, again citing the PCK, the Piraha work 15-20 hours a week gathering food, and a few hours making tools. These people would not need to make tools, as they have a city to do that for them. Gathering five units/day would then require 75-100 hours a week; a rather heavy workload, but not completely unthinkable. With an idealised ecology and a little optimism, it should be possible.
And even if they don't reach 8000, it's still bigger than many of the ancient Greek cities - should be enough to develop civilisation.

_________________



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:53 am 
Sanci
Sanci
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 6:54 pm
Posts: 30
Location: The place they say 'Ayuh'
I think it's very much possible. I'd say that the largest issue regarding how much food one can gather is in preservation, not so much a limit to the amount one can gather. I can't give examples for a tropical climate but atleast in a boreal climate, which ought to be less productive food wise, it is extremely easy to find plentiful food in season. For each of collecting snowberries, bunchberries, pin cherries, ice fishing, dandelion, poulet gras, cranberries, cleavers, currents, shad, cattails, birch syrup, grapes, and many many more things, one person could gather enough for four or more people for a year with one week of devoted gathering. That's quite a bit of unit's worth each day.

Although usually when I work out these types of problems I make the unit 1/9th of a day's rations, and assume that each meal(among three in a day) will consist of three different things. That way each adult in a population must acquire about 3200 units per year, and supposing they only ate 50 different foods they would only need to gather 65 units worth of each food per person. I guess I ussually take one unit to equal about one cup. I can get about 2 gallons of wild strawberries(and those are time consuming to pick, definently worth it though) in a day's worth of work, and that's about 30 units. No, that's definantly off somehow, but still stuff to think about. Irregardless, I think the maximum population density is much higher than 1 a square mile.

The largest problem they would be facing would be having big staple foods like potatoes or wheat from nondomesticated sources, but maybe having a diverse diet they wouldn't need something like that. They certainly increase food production efficiency though. Perhaps white meat fishes are capable of forfilling this function.

I would think the primary development for a civilisation would be metal-working. There's plenty of ore is South and Central America, and those would be great sources of trade. I don't think reasonable maritime technology is possible without the invention of the saw, and that is probably the reason Aztecs never had great ships on the scale of Europe or East Asia. But if they relied allot of the coast first for food and then for trade they would have ample reason to develope ocean capable ships. As for a weapon capable of standing against gunpowder, I'd suggest crossbows. In the 1100s, the pope banned the use of crossbows because they were considered too lethal, and that was one of the biggest reasons that guns were worked on despite being an inferior weapon. Upon looking that last bit up, it looks like it's not true, but they're still capable of piercing armours, and repeating crossbows could be made too.

I think the history of Ulan Bator is something you'd find interesting here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulan_Bator

_________________
http://nomadicvillage.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:32 am 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Posts: 2373
Location: Santiago de Chile
polynesians had awesome ships and werent all that into metalworking, so yeah... and you can carve wood without a saw, theres plenty of delicate, precise work that has been done with axes and stuff

_________________
-


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group