zompist bboard
http://www.incatena.org/

Interesting ways to deal with "already"
http://www.incatena.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=37773
Page 1 of 1

Author:  Viktor77 [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Interesting ways to deal with "already"

I'm at that stage in Falgwian where I'm trying to avoid just making new words for English words and putting them in a dictionary. With Falgwian adverbs, they're extremely regular, formed off of adjectives by a simply inflection. When it comes to the adverbs of location, here/there/yonder, and the adverbs of time, now/then, I chose to merge them together into a sort of here/now and yonder/then sort of deal (the details aren't important). Anyway, I've had some trouble incorporating the adverb of time "already" into Falgwian in a manner which is unique. I'd rather not just create a word for "already." So what methods have you used in your conlangs when it comes to incorporating the adverb of time "already?"

Author:  Radius Solis [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

You do not need to have an adverb of time with that meaning, or anything closely related. It's one that I usually choose to leave out. Relegating that concept to paraphrasings like "unexpectedly soon" or "quicker than I first thought" is perfectly fine. All languages can express just about all things, but they differ widely in what they provide simple short words for.

Author:  Viktor77 [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Radius Solis wrote:
You do not need to have an adverb of time with that meaning, or anything closely related. It's one that I usually choose to leave out. Relegating that concept to paraphrasings like "unexpectedly soon" or "quicker than I first thought" is perfectly fine. All languages can express just about all things, but they differ widely in what they provide simple short words for.


Good idea as well!

PS: Can you move this to C&C? It was a lag that put it here.

Author:  Jashan [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

I think using "before" would be a simply and easy gloss, that you probably already have.

"He has already eaten dinner." == "He has eaten dinner before (now)."

The same would work with other tenses, as long as context of the conversation gives the anchor point of reference.

Author:  roninbodhisattva [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

You could form it using say a perfect tense and another adverb, for example "now". So he eat.perf now could be 'He's already eaten'.

Author:  Imralu [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

"Already" basically means something happened or happens surprisingly early. It is not restricted to the past (I've already eaten) but can be used for the present (You're here already!) or the future (It will already be dark by the time I get home). Think about another use for the indication of surprise (eg. the English adverb "even", "even if it rains", "even I had brought a book to read", "I had even brought a book to read") and you could use a phrase like "even then", "even before", "even now" etc. Just an idea.

Author:  Cathbad [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Two ways to deal with it in High Eolic:

1) mirative particle ras: he/she MIR eat.PERF = "He/she has eaten already!"

2) for durative events, an alternative is nará "for a long time, for a long time [already]": [nará] he/she eat.IMPERF.NON1 = "He/she has already been eating for a while now"

Author:  Jetboy [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

If you're going with the whole distance/time thing, for the places where "already" means "previously", why not have it also mean "behind"? So a sentence meaning "I already stood" could also be interpreted as "I stood behind".

Author:  Bob Johnson [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Besides "before now" and such, I have this:

A: suf rottep za
suf-∅ rop-tep za
plow-NOM Qi-LOC 3i.COP
Where is [the] plow?

B: pem pasodi
pem pas-ot-i
2h.ACC give-PFT-EMPH
Augh, I gave [it] to you already!

To contradict a negative, you have to use the emphatic (or you sound uncertain); here B is contradicting the unspoken accusation:

nun suvan sek paskan
nun-∅ suf-an sek pas-kan
2h-NOM plow-INS 1h.ACC give-NEG
You haven't given (aren't giving, won't give, etc) me the plow [which you agreed to do]

Author:  Niedokonany [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Certain languages reportedly have auxilliary verbs to encode the old state/new state ( ~ still/already) distinction. Maybe it's not the most realistic solution in case of central Europe, though.

Author:  Viktor77 [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Thank you all for your responses! I'm considering them now. :)

Author:  Nortaneous [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Xiądz Faust wrote:
Certain languages reportedly have auxilliary verbs to encode the old state/new state ( ~ still/already) distinction. Maybe it's not the most realistic solution in case of central Europe, though.

What do those auxiliaries normally derive from?

Author:  Niedokonany [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Oh, I only vaguely remember it was probably something Caucasian (Dagestanian?), I can't find it anymore. In RMW Dixon's Ergativity there's a passage which reads "Discussing the North-east Caucasian language Archi (...) there are four auxiliary type verbs ('with the aspectual meanings durative/terminative and the tense meanings present/past and the additional tense/aspect meaning of continualis "begin and continue"')."
So it was probably about sth similar to it, perhaps a description of the same phenomenon from a different point of view.

Author:  brandrinn [ Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

How is it Yiuel hasn't been here yet?
Japanese combines "already" and "anymore" in "mo:"
Likewise, "yet" and "still" are combined in "mada"
The idea is, when a change is expected to occur in the past, you use the former, and when a change is expected in the future, you use the latter. English uses two words for each concept, one negative and one positive. In Japanese, the negation is just left up to the verb.

Korean is similar, but more complicated. The simple version is "daman" for yet/still, and "ajik" or "imi" for anymore/already.

Author:  Niedokonany [ Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

brandrinn wrote:
How is it Yiuel hasn't been here yet?
Japanese combines "already" and "anymore" in "mo:"
Likewise, "yet" and "still" are combined in "mada"


This sounds similar to the Polish or Russian system (except that interrogative yet as in Have you done it yet? belongs to the former).

Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
https://www.phpbb.com/