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 Post subject: Arve
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:52 pm 
Sumerul
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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:11 am 
Smeric
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It looks like German orthography grafted onto a phonological nightmare, but I think it's excellent... Need moar.

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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:10 am 
Sumerul
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Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Last edited by Nortaneous on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:56 am 
Sumerul
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Don't you think there would come a point where users of this orthography would go "fuck it" and start writing things in the IPA or equivalent? :|


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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:48 am 
Lebom
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I don't have time to say anything more in depth right now, but this is kickass.

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p_>-ts_>k_>-k_>k_>-pSSSSS


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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:09 am 
Sumerul
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I'm with finlay... This orthography makes me want to hurt something.


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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:14 am 
Sumerul
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Especially in this case, you haven't given us any orthography rules besides a non-committal vague cluster rule. So all we can go on is the phonetic.


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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:35 am 
Sumerul
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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:01 pm 
Lebom
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Yep, when I first looked at this, my first thought was 'Tibetan gone even more badass'

I like it, but you're definitely gonna have to apply a heavy dose of analogy because it doesn't yet seem like a language that anyone could learn.


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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:04 pm 
Sumerul
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The impression I get with Tibet, though, (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the literate population is a minority, and the script is heavily tied with religious tradition...


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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:04 pm 
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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
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Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:24 pm 
Sumerul
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yeah, that's a minority.


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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:46 am 
Avisaru
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*how do you say bump in arve*

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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:16 am 
Sumerul
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Urgh, I got distracted with another conlang, and then IRL shit. I'll have the imperfective charts done by the end of spring break, and once I finish those, I can start regularizing things.

Also, some phonetic/dialectal details:

Arve distinguishes all of /ç x xʷ χ h/, with a vowel system large enough that those distinctions can't easily get pushed onto allophony in vowels. Instead, they are kept distinct by varying the level of frication. /ç χ/ are pronounced as heavily fricated, with /χ/ approaching a voiceless trill, whereas /x/ is pronounced more as an approximant [ɰ̥]. Most dialects merge /x/ with /h/; in the standard language, /x/ can only appear word-medially and /h/ can only appear word-initially and word-finally.

The diphthongs /aɔ ɛa ɛɔ ie yø uo/ are commonly pronounced as centering diphthongs [aə̯ eə̯ eə̯ iə̯ yə̯ uə̯]; however, some dialects keep /ɛɔ/ distinct by realizing it as [øə̯] or even [oə̯]. The frontness of the first element of [aə̯] varies heavily across dialects, from [æ] to [ɔ], but the other first elements are relatively stable. Also, one of the most obvious markers of a Serhes Kettw accent is the collapse of those diphthongs into vowel+semivowel or semivowel+vowel combinations: [ɔw jə ɞw jɪ ɥʏ wʊ]. Note that the [ɛu̯] allophone of /ɛɔ/ is not affected by any of this.

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:37 am 
Smeric
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I would definitely want to see more of this. It's such a standard practice among conlangers to make shallow orthographies that this has a special something to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:18 am 
Avisaru
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Me too, my orthographies are usually phonemic (for protolanguages), and slightly etymological for the rent.

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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 2:04 am 
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Orthographical note: <g> in the passive affix -ger is pronounced /j/.

The Arve verb complex

Without an applicative, the verb complex takes the following form:
PRON AUX SECAUX MANNER MODAL CONJ

And with an applicative:
AUX SECAUX APPL MANNER MODAL CONJ

The only mandatory units are PRON and AUX.

A description of each unit in the complex:
* PRON - Pronoun: en, die, kes, vön, zeu, kors (1S, 2S, 3S, 1P, 2P, 3P). All except vön are realized only as mutations of the initial consonant of the verb.
* AUX - Primary auxiliary. The perfective auxiliary suppletes for time and positive/negative status (is there a better term for this), but the rest are mostly regular. (-je for past, -ve for future; the only exception so far is that the future tense of the positive hypothetical auxiliary voss is vosse, not vossve. There will probably be other exceptions later.)
* SECAUX - Secondary auxiliary. Not all auxiliaries have negative forms; the most notable of these is the imperfective auxiliary trei. In order to form the negative, the auxiliary is bumped down to secondary status, and the primary auxiliary slot is filled by the negative perfective. For example, the negative present active singular of trei is zigg trei, using the negative perfective auxiliary zigg with the positive imperfective auxiliary trei. Trei can also be used in secondary auxiliary position to mark the imperfective aspect on other auxiliaries. Secondary auxiliaries only mark for number, except in the Southern dialect, where, as with normal verbs, the -s ending is also added to verb complexes headed by a 1S pronoun.
MANNER - includes particles such as seig 'to completion', zed ast 'for that', kjan 'now'. Time and place are expressed with applicatives, so there's no slot for them; the few particles that discuss time that take this slot can co-occur in any order with the other manner particles.
MODAL - Modal particle, similar to those in German and Dutch. Most of these were borrowed from Kett, and therefore occur most in the Northern dialect and barely at all in the Southern.
CONJ - Conjunction: 'and', 'but', etc.
APPL - Applicative phrase. Formed with an applicative particle (usually dan, which I call the instrumental, but there are others: y LOC, de 'in', etc. It's important here to note that applicative particles beginning in /ð/ absorb the -s ending of a verb in the plural or 1S and are realized as [θ]. (This is the main occurrence of [θ] in Arve.)

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:45 pm 
Lebom
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Ughghg this is so cool. I love everything about this conlang so far—the phonology, the orthography, the morphology. All super original.

I'm confused about a few things, though. What is the first column in your charts? The stem? Does it ever appear independently?
And the verbal complex—do these elements come together as a word, or are each/some separate words? Or are they orthographically different words but phonologically one/fewer word(s)? And where's the lexical root? Or is Arve like Basque in conjugating pretty much only auxiliaries? In general I'm just having a hard time picturing things. Examples, plx!! Tell us more about applicatives!

BTW, "positive/negative status" = polarity.


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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:57 pm 
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Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 11:21 pm 
Lebom
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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 1:40 am 
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Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 8:19 pm 
Lebom
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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 4:04 pm 
Sumerul
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I haven't been awake enough to answer those questions, but I'll get to them sometime soon. In the meantime, here's a thing on the script. It starts by describing the Kett script because that's where the Arve script comes from.

-------------------

Some information on the Kett/Arve script. I start off only covering Kett, because Arve gets very complicated, as is to be expected.

The script is vaguely a syllabary, but there are only two vowels, transliterated <a e>, and one null vowel column. All other vowels/diphthongs (depending on how you want to analyze them) are written by adding an extra syllable containing a semivowel. So, for example, the Kett word keréu 'wait' is written ke-re-w. The rules are different for unstressed vowels, but I'll get to that later.

Consonant clusters are also written with the null-vowel column: céck 'rule' is written ce-c-k.

The null vowel column, however, is a relatively recent innovation. An older method of writing consonant clusters and vowels besides /a e/ is with an echo vowel and a vowel cancellation diacritic, transliterated by capitalizing the vowel canceled. The two previous examples would thus be written ke-re-wE and ce-cE-kE. This method is still used to a certain degree in Arve.

There is also a rounding diacritic, transliterated <W>. This is only used on the consonant columns /t k j/, to form the consonants /t͡ʙ̥ pʰ ɥ/. The words varétw 'good', pes 'but', and léyka 'think' are written va-re-tW, keW-s, and le-jW-ka.

The gemination diacritic, transliterated <:>, indicates that the next consonant is geminated.

The last diacritic, the consonant canceler, romanized C, only appears on word-initial characters, and cancels an inherent /h/. For example, the words ḩéng and abhéit are written He-ŋ and HaC-b-he-j-t. Native vocabulary contains only words with initial consonants, as does the native lexicon of Arve; all words with initial vowels come from Kannow or unknown languages. (However, Kannow later appended initial h- to vowel-initial consonants, presumably under influence from Kett.)

For a longer example: (this text is very old and probably not even close to grammatical anymore, but whatever)

Romanized
Transliterated

Ketwlá han cékcan máru.
ke-tW-la ha-n ce-k-ca-n ma-r-w (note: Kett has two vowels in stressed position, but five in unstressed position. The other five correspond to eC diphthongs / vowel+semivowel clusters. They are written as consonants.)

Ang láncapean ullá ammárung.
HaŋC la-n-ca-keW-ḩa-n w:-la HaC:-ma-r-w-ŋ

Láncakkoman cécak ve mebérra.
la-n-ca:-k-m-H-Ha-n ce-ca-k ve me-pe:-ra (note: <o> = next sonorant is syllabic. this is written by _ H)

And now for Arve. (Well, Proto-Arve.) Here's the fun part.

The system has to be stretched to write nine vowels (æ ɑ e ø o i y ɯ u) with two lengths (short, long -- overlong vowels developed entirely from compensatory lengthening after simplification of consonant clusters, so they're not relevant here), and six diphthongs (ei øy ou ie yø uo). Also, I should point out that <ü y> in the romanization are reversed from what you'd expect: <y> is /y/, and <ü> is /ɯ/. But the two vowels merged, so it shouldn't be much trouble.

Vowels:
æ - Ce DA
ɑ - Ca
e - Ce
ø - Ce DAW
o - Ca DAW
i - Ce DE
y - Ce DEW
ɯ - Ca DE
u - Ca DEW

The C slot is filled by the consonant directly before the vowel, and the D slot is filled by the consonant directly after it, if there is not a vowel directly after that. If there is, D is filled by H and the vowel gets a C diacritic.

For example, the word vöntus 'alcohol' is written ve-nAW-ta-sEW, and the word rätt 'place' is written re:-tA.

Length: The short length is written with the gemination diacritic. Steck 'wheat' is written s-te:-k. Long is default.

Diphthongs:
ei - Ca jA
øy - Ca jAW
ou - Ca wAW
ie - Ce jA
yø - Ce jEW
uo - Ce wEW

For example, the word huon 'hand' is written he-wEW-n, and the word zeis 'hope' is written ca-jA-s.

Eventually, the null diacritic will fuse with the characters and form a few new sets, although the modifications will be mostly predictable. I might do the same for W+null diacritic clusters, but probably not.

Consonants: The inventory is /p t ts k b d g v s x χ m n l r j w/. The voiceless stops, except /ts/, are written with a modified form of the gemination diacritic, transliterated <S>, but the rest are written with the characters for p t c k v s H h m n l r j w. There's also a glottal stop, but it's written with a diacritic transliterated <?> and applied to H_ characters.

For a longer example:

En enz sjö-tjargut, kes enter lauch.
He-n He-n-c s-je-HAW?-tS-ja-r-ka-tEWS, keS-s He-n-teS-r la-w-H

Kes treir räud skand ast.
keS-s tS-ra-jA-r re-wA-t s-kaS-n-t Ha-s-t

Now I just need to develop the actual characters.

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:18 am 
Sumerul
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and here's a draft, although it's probably shit


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Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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 Post subject: Re: Arve
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 1:22 am 
Smeric
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It looks a lot like a conscript of mine :o At least those particular glyphs. I'd like to see it to be developed further.

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