Re: The Problem with Conlanging
Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:02 pm
Where do you live?
Me too.Trailsend wrote:Nope.Shrdlu wrote:Every day.ekobor wrote:Yep.Vardelm wrote:All the time.Ashroot wrote:Have you ever looked around you and noticed how hopelessly mediocre people can be?
Agreed. I've actually struggled with conlanging for quite some time -- years now, actually. I tend to be a productive person. I like having a goal. Conlanging is, as you say, rather goalless (or with a very ill-defined goal at best). It can't be "to complete" the conlang, because I don't think any language can ever be complete (unless you set artificial restrictions such as 'complete' == 'has 10,000 words and can be used to translate most children's books'). And for me the main draw back is that I can put in hundreds of hours of careful and loving labor and then.... what, exactly? Show it off to the world? No one cares. You can't frame a conlang and hang it on your wall. You can't lend it to your friends on your iPod and they listen to it and say "omg cool!" (well, they might, but not in a way beyond 'wow that sounds like Russian! I didn't know you knew Russian!') Unless someone else learns to speak it (which as we all know, is HIGHLY unlikely), all your effort into crafting a beautiful, expressive language... means nothing. It will be forever silent.vecfaranti wrote:Conlangs require context. Some conlangs are created for the modern world, although those are becoming less and less frequent. Most conlangs made by ZBB members are artlangs meant for conpeople. But for a lot of us, creating the language is much more fun than creating the the people. That requires so much more thought and starts overtaxing your brain. Conworlding is very overwhelming. Especially when it isn't clear what the end-goal of the exercise is. Are you going to make a book using it? Are you going to make a movie? A game of some sorts? Or are you just making it for the sake of making it and presenting it on a website in encyclopedic format?
True, again -- but you need a grammar to understand any artifacts that are made. The language games (things like the Conlang Relay) are fun, but I think a large part of the "problem" with conlangs (and I'm just as guilty of this as any other), is that we're all focused on our own babies and tend to ignore the others. We all dream of someone, someday, learning our languages -- but we don't do the same ourselves to other's conlangs. There are, of course, multiple reasons for that:No one likes reading grammars.
There. I said it. I mean, I love reading grammars. I love reading about natural languages. And well made conlangs can be a joy. But most of what we post here is nowhere near that stage.
I've thought about this, and have some ideas, but nothing concrete. For all that people seem to hate him, I think that Saizi (sp?)'s development of the LCS and LCCs has been a great publicity move if nothing else, and might inspire people in that, "Look -- you can DO something with this". But something a bit less serious might be in store.So I wonder, is there a way to solve these problems? For context, we must work and work and work tirelessly. And the process usually ends up being private. This board is good for quick questions and socialising, but deep questions require outside research. For presentation, we must either have a lot of work already done, in order to get away with the website approach or we must set a goal for ourselves that goes beyond conlanging (and conworlding) for conlanging's (or conworlding's) sake.
If I know anything about lang learning in elementary school, whatever that exactly means, that's not a huge accomplishment... just saying =)Jetboy wrote:For me, I do have something of a "goal" for my conlang– get it to the point where I can teach it to my friends and we can talk in it. Obviously that's not all I want from the language– I enjoy the process, too, but that's what I'm currently working towards. And actually, come to think of it, my conlang is actually probably a bit farther developed than what knowledge of Spanish my 8 years of elementary school have given me, at least in terms of grammar– definitely inferior in vocab.
Rofl. Tell us more.Shrdlu wrote:I did a test once, an impulsive one. I won't do it again. On my familys old computer I opened up notepad and wrote something random that resembled a phrase, then I left it. My mother was the first to see it, and I havn't seen her behavining like she did then before or after. She became suspisous and began asking me questions after questions, but never waiting for an answer. She didn't even reflect over what she did at that point and it was like an automatic mechanism.
I said that it was just something random that I found on the net and that it was worthless, then I closed it and after that episode I keep my conlangs to myself or post them here.
Oh, no, it's definitely not much of an accomplishment, I know that, and my vocabulary in my language is woefully small. But yeah, elementary school taught me almost nothing– five years at one school and I didn't know the difference between <el> & <la>.Torco wrote: If I know anything about lang learning in elementary school, whatever that exactly means, that's not a huge accomplishment... just saying =)
It sounds like you're talking about Sehnsucht. It's the motivation for my conlanging too, and is also the basis for my own idiosyncratic religion-ish thing, and also my conpeople's religion. It's certainly an intensely profound experience. I don't like talking about it publicly since it's extremely, extremely personal for me, but you're very welcome to PM me about it if you'd like.Mundi.Tristissimis wrote:All I know is that sometimes when I am writing, or researching, or creating, I feel a 'something', a 'something' that is just beyond my grasp of explanation. It's not inspiration--it almost seems to be the object or source of inspiration. Like I can almost reach out and grasp it, and have in my possession what my mind has been searching for. I can read a story, or of an aspect of a culture, or a word in a foreign language, and a feeling almost like deja vu comes over me. Like what I'm searching for is SO CLOSE, that I can almost be reading about it right now, in these very real books, and yet so far away. In a way, it feels as though I am reading about my own 'true' culture, the one I ought to belong to, whether it exists or not, that I have almost been subconsciously creating for myself, and then in a strange way, I am confronted by it, and yet it is still not real.
I am using a great many words to describe something that is such a profoundly subjectively personal of an experience as to almost make words meaningless. All I can say is that all of my efforts at conworlding and at researching in this present world are all worth it when I experience this sensation of truly connecting to what I'm searching for. It adds a profound sense of mystery and wonder to the mundane world that I live in now, where our search for truth and knowledge has driven all mystery into hiding, whether for good or ill, to the point that genuine mystery or ultimate inexplicability are disguised in trite platitudes or playing dead coyly under the boot of reductionism.
I think I know what you are talking about, more or less. It is similar with my Old Albic project (which does not only involve a language, but a culture, religion and all that) - it is my yearning for a culture based on the values I believe in. The whole project reflects my personal views on the human condition and the meaning of life; however, while it is personal, it is not private: I can freely talk about that culture, at least with some people (there are of course many people who'd say "Stop daydreaming and get a life", and it is no point talking to them about the Commonwealth of the Elves).Risla wrote:It sounds like you're talking about Sehnsucht. It's the motivation for my conlanging too, and is also the basis for my own idiosyncratic religion-ish thing, and also my conpeople's religion. It's certainly an intensely profound experience. I don't like talking about it publicly since it's extremely, extremely personal for me, but you're very welcome to PM me about it if you'd like.
I just got home from a business meeting with a representative from a newly started company who is specializing in teambuilding for children (with a lot of fantasy & theatre involved). This person likes my Xhaimeran language and culture and wants to use Xhaimeran names and folk stories. Enter the paycheck....WeepingElf wrote:there are of course many people who'd say "Stop daydreaming and get a life", and it is no point talking to them about the Commonwealth of the Elves).
Unfortunately my conlanging often does not make me happy or entertain me. Most of the time it's hard tedious work.Mundi.Tristissimis wrote:It made you happy, or in the very least it entertained and engrossed you.
lolThe Count wrote:Ergo: Keep nurturing every odd interest you have. Do it thoroughly and people will pay you for these things they're too normal to do themselves.
Not everyone will be as lucky as you. Even today, when self-publishing and self-promotion are easily accessible, it can be hard to make good money off creative pursuits. Particularly for those who want to live on that kind of work.The Count wrote:I just got home from a business meeting with a representative from a newly started company who is specializing in teambuilding for children (with a lot of fantasy & theatre involved). This person likes my Xhaimeran language and culture and wants to use Xhaimeran names and folk stories. Enter the paycheck....WeepingElf wrote:there are of course many people who'd say "Stop daydreaming and get a life", and it is no point talking to them about the Commonwealth of the Elves).
It's in times like these I flash a smile or two directed at the stupidity and shortsightedness of all the people I've heard time and time again wondering (and frowning upon) how the hell I could go around wasting time...
...making up languages that doesn't exist.
...making up cultures that doesn't exist.
...making music you can't dance to.
...writing stories that no one will read.
Now my made-up language is featured on CD's (for example Lodge Doom: Ne Nashran Inannaa http://itunes.apple.com/se/album/vision ... d444626394) and on art (http://www.skullartistry.com/poetry-3345450).
Now my made-up culture will be featured in team building and interactive theatre.
Now my music you can't dance to has been released on 9 albums.
Next year my stories that no one would read will make me a published author.
Ergo: Keep nurturing every odd interest you have. Do it thoroughly and people will pay you for these things they're too normal to do themselves.
I din't mean for it to come off as: "Look how badass I am". Rather as a reminder of, that a lot of these weird stuff some of us here go about to create is basically honing our tools. Conlanging not only makes one understand languages better, it requires us to think outside the box. And that is, to say the least, quite useable in a lot of areas. So those who tell a conlanger to "stop daydreaming and get a life" ought to stuff their mouths with insulation. And we better do the same with our ears.Ollock wrote: Not everyone will be as lucky as you. Even today, when self-publishing and self-promotion are easily accessible, it can be hard to make good money off creative pursuits. Particularly for those who want to live on that kind of work.
okThe Count wrote:I din't mean for it to come off as: "Look how badass I am". Rather as a reminder of, that a lot of these weird stuff some of us here go about to create is basically honing our tools. Conlanging not only makes one understand languages better, it requires us to think outside the box. And that is, to say the least, quite useable in a lot of areas. So those who tell a conlanger to "stop daydreaming and get a life" ought to stuff their mouths with insulation. And we better do the same with our ears.Ollock wrote: Not everyone will be as lucky as you. Even today, when self-publishing and self-promotion are easily accessible, it can be hard to make good money off creative pursuits. Particularly for those who want to live on that kind of work.
Just as much as I guess people have backup plans should their bodybuilding or car styling prove not to generate income.Ollock wrote:okThe Count wrote:I din't mean for it to come off as: "Look how badass I am". Rather as a reminder of, that a lot of these weird stuff some of us here go about to create is basically honing our tools. Conlanging not only makes one understand languages better, it requires us to think outside the box. And that is, to say the least, quite useable in a lot of areas. So those who tell a conlanger to "stop daydreaming and get a life" ought to stuff their mouths with insulation. And we better do the same with our ears.Ollock wrote: Not everyone will be as lucky as you. Even today, when self-publishing and self-promotion are easily accessible, it can be hard to make good money off creative pursuits. Particularly for those who want to live on that kind of work.
I agree.
So long as people have some realistic plans in addition to playing at conlanging, but that should go without saying.
Yeah-- that does sound like my experience. I don't just get it with conlanging though, I also get it when thinking about my past, or after reading a really good book. But it's definitely strongest and most keen during the moments I wrote about above.Risla wrote:It sounds like you're talking about Sehnsucht. It's the motivation for my conlanging too, and is also the basis for my own idiosyncratic religion-ish thing, and also my conpeople's religion. It's certainly an intensely profound experience. I don't like talking about it publicly since it's extremely, extremely personal for me, but you're very welcome to PM me about it if you'd like.Mundi.Tristissimis wrote:All I know is that sometimes when I am writing, or researching, or creating, I feel a 'something', a 'something' that is just beyond my grasp of explanation. It's not inspiration--it almost seems to be the object or source of inspiration. Like I can almost reach out and grasp it, and have in my possession what my mind has been searching for. I can read a story, or of an aspect of a culture, or a word in a foreign language, and a feeling almost like deja vu comes over me. Like what I'm searching for is SO CLOSE, that I can almost be reading about it right now, in these very real books, and yet so far away. In a way, it feels as though I am reading about my own 'true' culture, the one I ought to belong to, whether it exists or not, that I have almost been subconsciously creating for myself, and then in a strange way, I am confronted by it, and yet it is still not real.
I am using a great many words to describe something that is such a profoundly subjectively personal of an experience as to almost make words meaningless. All I can say is that all of my efforts at conworlding and at researching in this present world are all worth it when I experience this sensation of truly connecting to what I'm searching for. It adds a profound sense of mystery and wonder to the mundane world that I live in now, where our search for truth and knowledge has driven all mystery into hiding, whether for good or ill, to the point that genuine mystery or ultimate inexplicability are disguised in trite platitudes or playing dead coyly under the boot of reductionism.
Yeah, there are numerous things that trigger it for me. It's certainly not exclusive to conlanging.Mundi.Tristissimis wrote:Yeah-- that does sound like my experience. I don't just get it with conlanging though, I also get it when thinking about my past, or after reading a really good book. But it's definitely strongest and most keen during the moments I wrote about above.Risla wrote:It sounds like you're talking about Sehnsucht. It's the motivation for my conlanging too, and is also the basis for my own idiosyncratic religion-ish thing, and also my conpeople's religion. It's certainly an intensely profound experience. I don't like talking about it publicly since it's extremely, extremely personal for me, but you're very welcome to PM me about it if you'd like.Mundi.Tristissimis wrote:All I know is that sometimes when I am writing, or researching, or creating, I feel a 'something', a 'something' that is just beyond my grasp of explanation. It's not inspiration--it almost seems to be the object or source of inspiration. Like I can almost reach out and grasp it, and have in my possession what my mind has been searching for. I can read a story, or of an aspect of a culture, or a word in a foreign language, and a feeling almost like deja vu comes over me. Like what I'm searching for is SO CLOSE, that I can almost be reading about it right now, in these very real books, and yet so far away. In a way, it feels as though I am reading about my own 'true' culture, the one I ought to belong to, whether it exists or not, that I have almost been subconsciously creating for myself, and then in a strange way, I am confronted by it, and yet it is still not real.
I am using a great many words to describe something that is such a profoundly subjectively personal of an experience as to almost make words meaningless. All I can say is that all of my efforts at conworlding and at researching in this present world are all worth it when I experience this sensation of truly connecting to what I'm searching for. It adds a profound sense of mystery and wonder to the mundane world that I live in now, where our search for truth and knowledge has driven all mystery into hiding, whether for good or ill, to the point that genuine mystery or ultimate inexplicability are disguised in trite platitudes or playing dead coyly under the boot of reductionism.