Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Arabic

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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

Post by Vardelm »

EDIT (11/18/11): I've removed the content of my Khuzdul analysis from this thread. Much of it was outdated, and there are updates on my web site.
Last edited by Vardelm on Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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EDIT (11/18/11): I've removed the content of my Khuzdul analysis from this thread. Much of it was outdated, and there are updates on my web site.
Last edited by Vardelm on Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

Post by SlayerXX33398 »

I haven't much knowledge on specifics in Semitic Grammar, and the little bit that I do have mainly comes from Akkadian and Phoenician, but sign me on if there's anything needed, I'll do what I can to help, mainly since Khuzdul has been the one language Tolkien has developed that I've been able to keep an interest in.
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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SlayerXX33398 wrote:I haven't much knowledge on specifics in Semitic Grammar, and the little bit that I do have mainly comes from Akkadian and Phoenician, but sign me on if there's anything needed, I'll do what I can to help, mainly since Khuzdul has been the one language Tolkien has developed that I've been able to keep an interest in.

Much appreciated. I'll let you know!
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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Vardelm wrote:[
Azanul is azan "shadows" plus -ul, which Tolkien calls a "genitive ending of patrynomics...". He says azan is a plural of uzn "dimness, shadow", so the indefinite plural is probably azân, with composition form azan. In drafts of LotR, Tolkien gave an early name to Azanulbizar of Azanûl, which he apparently discarded. However, since Khuzdul is sometimes written as Khuzdûl, perhaps it was a sort of nickname for the valley. The Dwarves did the same for the surrounding mountains. If so, -ûl would be the suffix, and would be reduced to -ul when in composition. Also, -ul seems to be more of an adjectival meaning than true genitive. Given that the accusative is -u, I'll treat -ul as adjectival rather than a genitive case since a word can appear with the suffix in isolation, not just with another noun. So, it seems to be more derivational than a case. Azanul is adjectival, plural, nominative, composition.


that makes me think of a question for you: if there was a -u following the -ul...would it be rendered -ûlu even if it was a composition/adjective ?
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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Rodlox wrote:that makes me think of a question for you: if there was a -u following the -ul...would it be rendered -ûlu even if it was a composition/adjective ?

I assume you mean something like azanuluzbad, which would be something like "the shadowy/dim lord"? I don't think so, at least for now. I know that in Hebrew & Arabic there's a number of changes vowels undergo when a word goes through a morphological process. There's not sufficient examples of Khuzdul to determine what happens, and I haven't gotten to the point of determining what those would be. I could see using your suggestion to get azanûluzbad, leaving it as azanuluzbad, or maybe lengthening the first "u" and reducing the second to a schwa for a form like azanûlüzbad (where ü is the schwa). Another option is a schwa appearing after the "z" to break up a consonant cluster, as in azanûlzübad.

Just thought of another possibility. Perhaps you meant a -u if the adjective is required to be in accusative? If so, then yes, I think it would be azanûlu. AFAIK, the case endings in Arabic don't seem to cause any vowel changes, so I would lead towards doing the same here, but only in the instance of the accusative.

We'll see what seems best when I look into more specifics on Hebrew & Arabic vowel changes, which should be sometime relatively soon.
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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Vardelm wrote:
We'll see what seems best when I look into more specifics on Hebrew & Arabic vowel changes, which should be sometime relatively soon.


By vowel changes, do you happen to mean from Proto-Semitic to Hebrew and Arabic, as a sort of guide? Or from each into Khuzdul?
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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SlayerXX33398 wrote:By vowel changes, do you happen to mean from Proto-Semitic to Hebrew and Arabic, as a sort of guide? Or from each into Khuzdul?

No, I'm talking about when you go between 2 states, cases, etc. For instance, in Hebrew bayit "house" contracts to bêt in the construct form. Or, in Khuzdul, the preposition aya "upon" contracts to ai- when attached to a pronoun. I'm still hazy on what changes like this happen in Hebrew & Arabic. Once I get a better grasp on that, I can mimic a similar system in Khuzdul. So, it has to do with changes in word forms due to inflection, not diachronic changes.

That make more sense?
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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Vardelm wrote:
SlayerXX33398 wrote:By vowel changes, do you happen to mean from Proto-Semitic to Hebrew and Arabic, as a sort of guide? Or from each into Khuzdul?

No, I'm talking about when you go between 2 states, cases, etc. For instance, in Hebrew bayit "house" contracts to bêt in the construct form. Or, in Khuzdul, the preposition aya "upon" contracts to ai- when attached to a pronoun. I'm still hazy on what changes like this happen in Hebrew & Arabic. Once I get a better grasp on that, I can mimic a similar system in Khuzdul. So, it has to do with changes in word forms due to inflection, not diachronic changes.

That make more sense?


That makes much more sense. If you'd like, I could keep an eye out while I scan through endless grammars of Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic for a Semitic conlang I'm doing. Do you prefer MSA or Quranic Arabic?
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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SlayerXX33398 wrote:That makes much more sense. If you'd like, I could keep an eye out while I scan through endless grammars of Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic for a Semitic conlang I'm doing. Do you prefer MSA or Quranic Arabic?

That would be great. I would say lean towards Classical/Quranic, but MSA or even a mish-mash is fine for this project.
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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Vardelm wrote:
SlayerXX33398 wrote:By vowel changes, do you happen to mean from Proto-Semitic to Hebrew and Arabic, as a sort of guide? Or from each into Khuzdul?

No, I'm talking about when you go between 2 states, cases, etc. For instance, in Hebrew bayit "house" contracts to bêt in the construct form. Or, in Khuzdul, the preposition aya "upon" contracts to ai- when attached to a pronoun. I'm still hazy on what changes like this happen in Hebrew & Arabic. Once I get a better grasp on that, I can mimic a similar system in Khuzdul. So, it has to do with changes in word forms due to inflection, not diachronic changes.

That make more sense?


That particular change is less a template-change of the usual Semitic flexional kind and more a relatively simple case of vowel reduction, occurring in construct state because the construct was historically treated as part of a unit with the noun following it.
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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YngNghymru wrote:That particular change is less a template-change of the usual Semitic flexional kind and more a relatively simple case of vowel reduction, occurring in construct state because the construct was historically treated as part of a unit with the noun following it.

True, but it was an example I could think of off the top of my head to show something besides a diachronic change. Another, according to my sources, would be -aya- :> -â-, which I think is more of a template change, no? I still need to find out more about all these kinds of changes, and then see how to apply them to Khuzdul. For example, the -aya- :> -â- example seems like it may be different that Khuzdul, which shows the preposition aya "upon" changing to ai- when attached to a pronoun.
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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Vardelm wrote:Abad meaning is unknown from the source material. However, this is the place where Durin awoke and the Dwarven tribes had convocations from their far-flung cities all over Middle-earth. It was a revered site, as a result, and pained the Dwarves greatly when it fell to Orcs. I could see it meaning something like "birth" or "awakening", but only Durin awoke here, and I'm not sure he would have named it right away. A more likely meaning is "meeting" since the Dwarves periodically met here. Also, this is where the Misty Mountains and the Grey Mountains attach, so it makes sense in that view as well. The only thing that gives me a little pause is that the 1a2a3 pattern is attested more for adjectives, and this would be verbal. I don't think that's a huge problem though. The patterns are probably not 100% exclusive in their usage. It may be some kind of verbal noun or gerund.

Or maybe it means city like in Hindi? :mrgreen:
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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Qwynegold wrote:Or maybe it means city like in Hindi? :mrgreen:

Very possible!

Hmm, now viewing the Dwarves as being something like the bearded Sikhs..... :D
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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Vardelm wrote:
YngNghymru wrote:That particular change is less a template-change of the usual Semitic flexional kind and more a relatively simple case of vowel reduction, occurring in construct state because the construct was historically treated as part of a unit with the noun following it.

True, but it was an example I could think of off the top of my head to show something besides a diachronic change. Another, according to my sources, would be -aya- :> -â-, which I think is more of a template change, no? I still need to find out more about all these kinds of changes, and then see how to apply them to Khuzdul. For example, the -aya- :> -â- example seems like it may be different that Khuzdul, which shows the preposition aya "upon" changing to ai- when attached to a pronoun.


-aya- > â looks like it could be the same sort of thing - the reduction of two syllables with a semivowel in the middle to one. But I don't know. I have a vague feeling <y> is one of the weak consonants in Hebrew and so probably disappears in certain parts of the paradigm. There are plenty of examples of that sort of change, though. This has a handy list of Arabic patterns, although I imagine you've found it already.
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!

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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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YngNghymru wrote:-aya- > â looks like it could be the same sort of thing - the reduction of two syllables with a semivowel in the middle to one. But I don't know.

It's similar, but I think it has more to do with the templates. If you have a template of CaCaC and a root of < T Y B >, that would give <tayab>, which would in turn get reduced to tâb for the "finalized" form. If that were a noun in the absolute state, then further vowel changes might occur to form the construct. Whether those are based on the <tayab> or <tâb> form, I don't know.

(And BTW, my < T Y B > root is a completely arbitrary, invented root made up for the purpose of illustration.)


YngNghymru wrote:I have a vague feeling <y> is one of the weak consonants in Hebrew and so probably disappears in certain parts of the paradigm. There are plenty of examples of that sort of change, though.

Yep, it absolutely is. I think in both Hebrew and Arabic, the consonants < y w h ' > (with < ' > being the glottal stop) are all weak and end up resulting in special forms. Right now, I think the same thing will be mostly true in Khuzdul, except that it might not be quite as extensive. The preposition aya "upon", as the only example, doesn't get reduced to â-mênu "upon you.PL.ACC", but rather ai-mênu. This is the exact sort of thing I'll need to decide on rules for.


YngNghymru wrote:This has a handy list of Arabic patterns, although I imagine you've found it already.

Yes, it's quite handy and I've referred to it. I already linked to it in my page of references on the Google Site that I am currently working on for the project. Wikipedia, despite its detractors, can be quite useful!
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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Hey, Vardelm, you might want to re-up those images, they've gone missing.
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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I now have a website for my Khuzdul expansion at http://sites.google.com/site/quasikhuzdul/.

So far it has updated versions of what I've written in this thread. It focuses on the analysis of existing Khuzdul, and I added a lot more explanation of "why" I analyze each word the way I do. That effort is now close to complete, so fairly soon I think I'll be able to move on to morphology.
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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I've made a bunch of updates to my Quasi-Khuzdul site, and my analysis of existing Khuzdul is pretty much complete at this point. I'm in the process of getting feedback from a few people, and pending that plus some minor polishing, I'll be posting to the Elfling mailing list on Yahoo to announce it. Just in case anyone sees this message & wishes to offer constructive criticism, now's the time before I move on to the expansion. Once I do that, I'd prefer to not go back to make any major updates to the analysis.

By the way, I've been wanting to complete this for over 10 years, and the learning I've been able to do from being a member on this forum was a major part of being able to go back and complete it. Thanks to everyone here who has provided answers & flames to my questions over the past couple years! :D
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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Vardelm wrote:I've made a bunch of updates to my Quasi-Khuzdul site, and my analysis of existing Khuzdul is pretty much complete at this point. I'm in the process of getting feedback from a few people, and pending that plus some minor polishing, I'll be posting to the Elfling mailing list on Yahoo to announce it. Just in case anyone sees this message & wishes to offer constructive criticism, now's the time before I move on to the expansion. Once I do that, I'd prefer to not go back to make any major updates to the analysis.

By the way, I've been wanting to complete this for over 10 years, and the learning I've been able to do from being a member on this forum was a major part of being able to go back and complete it. Thanks to everyone here who has provided answers & flames to my questions over the past couple years! :D


"However, Hebrew, Yiddish, and several other Semitic languages have <p>". http://sites.google.com/site/quasikhuzd ... consonants (bold added)

Yiddish a Semitic language? I take it this is just being not so precise?

Although I must say I like the way you tackle this, you definitely did more than just making wild guesses!
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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Grunnen wrote:Yiddish a Semitic language? I take it this is just being not so precise?

Good catch, thank you! Yeah, that's just a sloppy sentence.


EDIT: AAaaannnnd.... fixed. :)


Grunnen wrote:Although I must say I like the way you tackle this, you definitely did more than just making wild guesses!

Thanks! That's why it has taken so long, but it's rewarding to see the result.
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

Post by Grunnen »

Oh, and btw, I noticed that you use ä in one of your vowel sections, but ü in the other.

Vardelm wrote:
Grunnen wrote:Although I must say I like the way you tackle this, you definitely did more than just making wild guesses!

Thanks! That's why it has taken so long, but it's rewarding to see the result.


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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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Grunnen wrote:Oh, and btw, I noticed that you use ä in one of your vowel sections, but ü in the other.

Thanks again, fixed, & I need to hire you as an editor! :wink:
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Re: Khuzdul: expansion using Biblical Hebrew & Classical Ara

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Vardelm wrote: I need to hire you as an editor! :wink:

Seems like I got a new job :P
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