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A Moiety-like System
http://www.incatena.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=38593
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Author:  Latinist13 [ Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  A Moiety-like System

I was listening to the Conlangery podcast and reading the links associated with it when an idea about kinship came to me. Now, this might have complications that I have not yet considered, but I thought about the possibility of a moiety-like system, similar to the Australian Aboriginal "skin" systems, with three groups. Now, these three groups, let's call them wolf, eagle, and dragon, each have their own roles in society, and people are born into one or another. Here is how I envision it working:

Eagle+Dragon= Wolf
Wolf+Dragon= Eagle
Eagle+Wolf= Dragon

In other words, the mother and father are from different groups, and their offspring belongs to a third group. Who their children marry depends on their gender, a male must marry someone from his father's group, and a daughter must marry someone from her mother's group.

So, are there any real world cultures that do this? What effects could this have on the culture?

Author:  Torco [ Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System

doesn't look too stable: if one of the groups becomes a prestige status, the other two groups quickly get absorbed into it. Also, it kind of randomizes the proportions... how, then, does that society make it so if there's a lower demand of whatever group X does there's less of group X ??

Author:  Kilanie [ Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


Author:  PÅ™emysl [ Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


Author:  Salmoneus [ Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


Author:  Miekko [ Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System

Have you read up on how skin systems tend to be 'designed' in a way that minimizes the risk of accidental incest with half-siblings? Many, many traditional systems of permissibility promote cross-cousins for this reason (that is, your parents' other-gender siblings' children are preferable to e.g. your parents' same-gender siblings' children, because of the risk of one's dad impregnating one's uncle's wife)

Author:  Salmoneus [ Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


Author:  Torco [ Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


Author:  Latinist13 [ Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System

I guess this should've been put in C&C Quickies. It was a thought experiment that I had that wasn't as fully formed as it should have been. As far as social roles are concerned, that was inspired by references to different ritualistic duties and dietary restrictions based on what skin a person belonged to, as mentioned on the 8th Conlangery podcast c17:00-19:00. As far as the issue of marrying aunts is concerned, there could be a taboo against marrying individuals from a previous generation or who are of a significant age difference.

Thus, a male might have to marry a maternal cousin and a female might have to marry a paternal cousin to avoid marrying someone they should not. As for why a culture might choose such a system, or under what circumstances it would evolve, I don't know, but it was something I envisioned as possibly feasible.

Author:  Rodlox [ Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


Author:  Ollock [ Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System

Took a look on . From what I can gather, the usual arrangement when there is more than two skins is for marriage to be much more restricted -- each skin only being allowed to marry one other skin, with their offspring being of a third skin. This probably keeps populations of each skin fairly stable, though it looks like a massive headache for whoever actually regulates it, particularly for those societies with eight skins.

EDIT: Oh, and I should mention -- gender of parents is involved. So, a simple example with your dummy skins:

Dragon (father) + Wolf (mother) > Eagle (child)
Wolf (father) + Eagle (mother) > Dragon (child)
Eagle (father) + Dragon (mother) > Wolf (child)

Under this scenario, it is illegal for a man of Eagle skin to marry a woman of Wolf skin -- he must marry a Dragon, and his children will be Wolves.

Author:  Latinist13 [ Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


Author:  brandrinn [ Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System

If I understand this system right, it does not minimize the chance of incest, which I assume is part of the point of moieties. With a moiety, the child cannot marry their siblings, and cannot marry immediate relatives of the father (if patrilineal) or mother (if matrilineal), because they are members of the same moiety.

This tripartite system, however, only rules out marriage between siblings, which could presumably be outlawed through special means without the need for a complex system. If you are a wolf, and you can marry dragons and eagles, then what prevents you from marrying your aunts and uncles? If there is an additional rules to outlaw such marriages, then why use this wolf/dragon/eagle system at all?

Author:  Ashroot [ Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System

Would you mind if I used something like this for a royal family?

Author:  Miekko [ Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


Author:  Ollock [ Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


Author:  Latinist13 [ Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


Author:  TomHChappell [ Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


Author:  Latinist13 [ Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


Author:  TomHChappell [ Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


Author:  Latinist13 [ Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


Author:  TomHChappell [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System

In my first concultural kinship system, there are three patriclans, three matriclans, and three "ropes", for a total of 108 kinds of man and 108 kinds of woman. A person can't marry someone in the same patriclan nor matriclan nor rope as himself/herself nor either of his/her parents; equivalently a person can't acquire parents-in-law who share a clan or a rope with him/her.

What the ropes contribute to that system is that a man's sister's husband and his wife's brother won't be brothers (nor will they be the same person, of course). A man and his sister don't belong to the same rope; he belongs to their mother's rope, while she belongs to their father's rope.

In that system a man marries (a girl classified as) his mother's father's mother's brother's daughter's son's daughter (MFMBDSD). It's a third-cousin marriage system.
There are "other relationships" -- by our standards -- which also apply between two people who can marry, but the conculture classifies them as equivalent.
In that system, too, a man's wife's brother's wife's father (WBWF), and his mother's brother's wife's brother (MBWB), are classified as the same type of relative, and as each other's brothers.

Leaving the ropes out of it, to simplify it, but retaining the three patriclans and the three matriclans, there'd be 36 kinds of men and 36 kinds of women. A lot of people probably think 36 is simpler than 108. (Since it's just two 6-kind systems operating simultaneously, maybe it's really even simpler yet.)

Let's suppose the patriclans are Ash, Beech, and Chestnut; and the matriclans are Dragon, Eagle, and Fox.

Ash people had Ash fathers, but they may have had Beech mothers or Chestnut mothers.
Likewise, Beech people had Beech fathers but may have had Ash or Chestnut mothers; and Chestnut people had Chestnut fathers but may have had Ash or Beech mothers.

Similarly, Dragon people had Dragon mothers, but they may have had Eagle fathers or Fox fathers; Eagle people had Eagle mothers but may have had Dragon or Fox fathers; and Fox people had Fox mothers but may have had Dragon or Eagle mothers.

An Ash person with a Beech mother has to marry a Chestnut person with a Beech mother;
an Ash person with a Chestnut mother has to marry a Beech person with a Chestnut mother;
a Beech person with an Ash mother has to marry a Chestnut person with an Ash mother;
a Beech person with a Chestnut mother has to marry an Ash person with a Chestnut mother;
a Chestnut person with an Ash mother has to marry a Beech person with an Ash mother;
a Chestnut person with a Beech mother has to marry an Ash person with a Beech mother.

A Dragon person with an Eagle father has to marry a Fox person with an Eagle father;
a Dragon person with a Fox father has to marry an Eagle person with a Fox father;
an Eagle person with a Dragon father has to marry a Fox person with a Dragon father;
an Eagle person with a Fox father has to marry a Dragon person with a Fox father;
a Fox person with a Dragon father has to marry an Eagle person with a Dragon father;
a Fox person with an Eagle father has to marry a Dragon person with an Eagle father.

An Ash/Dragon man with a Beech/Dragon mother and an Ash/Eagle father would have to marry a Chestnut/Fox woman with a Beech/Fox mother and a Chestnut/Eagle father.
His sister would be an Ash/Dragon woman, and of course she'd have the same Beech/Dragon mother he had, and the same Ash/Eagle father he had. She would have to marry a Chestnut/Fox man with a Beech/Fox mother and a Chestnut/Eagle father. That man could very easily be her brothe's wife's brother; and, in such a system, would be so classified.

An Ash/Dragon person with a Beech/Dragon mother and an Ash/Fox father would have to marry a Chestnut/Eagle spouse with a Beech/Eagle mother and a Chestnut/Fox father.
An Ash/Dragon person with a Chestnut/Dragon mother and an Ash/Eagle father would have to marry a Beech/Fox spouse with a Chestnut/Fox mother and a Beech/Eagle father.
An Ash/Dragon person with a Chestnut/Dragon mother and an Ash/Fox father would have to marry a Beech/Eagle spouse with a Chestnut/Eagle mother and a Beech/Fox father.

And so on.

Author:  Gojera [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System

Wow, that's...complicated. It seems like finding marriage partners would be quite difficult, and you'd have to draw from a very large population group to get a plausibly large pool of possibilities. Probably OK in a large city, but in small town you'd have to shop around in a large region that uses the same system. And you'd probably need a class of professional marriage brokers.

Author:  TomHChappell [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


Author:  Latinist13 [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Moiety-like System


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