zompist bboard

WE ARE MOVING - see Ephemera
It is currently Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:12 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:48 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:11 pm
Posts: 269
Location: Edinburgh, UK
UPDATE: Part 3 now available! See below:

Part 1/3: http://jonafras.conlang.org/?p=415
Part 2/3: http://jonafras.conlang.org/?p=418
Part 3/3: http://jonafras.conlang.org/?p=435

On my blog... can't really be bothered to reformat here. As always, feedback welcome, etc.

There will be two more posts in the coming weeks: the next one will focus on more complex valence operations (reflexives, causatives, etc.), and the last one will deal with pragmatic / ideological uses of the valence/class agreement particles (as honorifics, insults, evidentials, etc.)

_________________
High Eolic (PDF)


Last edited by Cathbad on Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:51 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:00 pm
Posts: 698
Location: United Kingdom
I like these, do you mind if I use some parts of it?
I have also just noticed; how would you deal with tetravalents, etc.?

_________________
næn:älʉː


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:00 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:11 pm
Posts: 269
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Nannalu wrote:
I have also just noticed; how would you deal with tetravalents, etc.?


They just aren't marked. There can be any number of obliques, or whatever, present; the valence marker just has to agree with the core arguments, and any Class 2 Oblique (of course, if it is relevant to the specific class alignment).

_________________
High Eolic (PDF)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:45 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:11 pm
Posts: 269
Location: Edinburgh, UK
UPDATE: Part 2 is now available: http://jonafras.conlang.org/?p=418

This deals with valence adjusting operations, including a number of causative constructions, and even applicatives and antipassives! (Passives are in there too - they just aren't all that interesting.) Comments and suggestions, again, welcome.

_________________
High Eolic (PDF)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:06 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:00 pm
Posts: 1630
Location: Braunschweig, Germany
Nice, very interesting! Rock on!

_________________
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:07 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:11 pm
Posts: 269
Location: Edinburgh, UK
WeepingElf wrote:
Nice, very interesting! Rock on!


Thank you. :) The last post will probably be the most interesting one - I don't remember seeing a lot of linguistic anthropology on this board.

_________________
High Eolic (PDF)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:02 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:11 pm
Posts: 269
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Part 3 now available! See here:

http://jonafras.conlang.org/?p=435

_________________
High Eolic (PDF)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:41 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:58 pm
Posts: 807
Cathbad wrote:
Part 3 now available! See here:

http://jonafras.conlang.org/?p=435


I (maybe only I) don't understand it. I have no other criticism to make of it; it appears well-written, I just don't get it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:58 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:11 pm
Posts: 269
Location: Edinburgh, UK
TomHChappell wrote:
Cathbad wrote:
Part 3 now available! See here:

http://jonafras.conlang.org/?p=435


I (maybe only I) don't understand it. I have no other criticism to make of it; it appears well-written, I just don't get it.


Basically you use "wrong" valence particles in order to convey non-standard contextual meanings (relative social status, etc.).

_________________
High Eolic (PDF)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:02 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:58 pm
Posts: 807
Cathbad wrote:
Basically you use "wrong" valence particles in order to convey non-standard contextual meanings (relative social status, etc.).

OK, then.
Letting relative social status control valence seems incomprehensible to me; and having an ideology about it even more incomprehensible.
It's not that you didn't explain it well (or, at least, ANAICT, it might not be); it's that the subject-matter is incompatible with my brain.
I'll give up trying to understand it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:53 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:59 pm
Posts: 463
Location: Flavor Country™
naw man don't give up
surely there's got to be some way to understand it ... I mean, it's a kind of animacy hierarchy controlling the valence here, and bumping people up or down the language's animacy scale based on social class is pretty easy to imagine a culture doing

EDIT: I think I remember one of Rosenfelder's languages has a feature where you can't have a lower-class nominative acting on a higher-class accusative ...
EDITT: it was Axunašin and I wasn't really remembering it accurately. whatevs.

_________________
<Anaxandridas> How many artists do you know get paid?
<Anaxandridas> Seriously, name five.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:51 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:11 pm
Posts: 269
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Kereb wrote:
naw man don't give up
surely there's got to be some way to understand it ... I mean, it's a kind of animacy hierarchy controlling the valence here, and bumping people up or down the language's animacy scale based on social class is pretty easy to imagine a culture doing


Yeah... I mean to me, it doesn't seem such a big deal really. Perhaps I've been reading too much linguistic anthropology :?

_________________
High Eolic (PDF)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:28 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:58 pm
Posts: 807
Kereb wrote:
I think I remember one of Rosenfelder's languages has a feature where you can't have a lower-class nominative acting on a higher-class accusative ...

There's a natlang, I think in SouthEast Asia (possibly Continental rather than Insular) (edit: -- maybe Javanese?), in which one of the chief uses of the passive voice is to keep the higher-status participant in the subject position, even when they happens to be the patient instead of the agent.
So maybe that's ANADEW.

But I don't like the natlangs that do that either.

Feynman had a lot of trouble learning the honorific and humilific parts of Japanese. Maybe I wouldn't have as much trouble as he had, if I ever tried to learn it; but I think I might have even more.

The Spanish distinction between "tú" and "usted", the Tamil distinction between நீ and நீங்கள், the Hindi distinction between तू and आप, the French distinction between "tu" and "vous", the German between "du" and "Sie", and the Russian between ты and Вы, and things like that, are pretty much the limit of what I can handle, I think.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:23 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:59 pm
Posts: 463
Location: Flavor Country™
Yeah but you're doing that to yourself
If you can learn noun systems with gender, or bantu style noun classes, or animacy hierarchies, and all the ways that these things interact with other bits in the language to create concords or syntactic fuckery or whatever, then you can learn the same idea when it concerns people
You've set up a Valve in your mind -- that's open to a chair being feminine or a verb being marked differently when its subject is a tree vs when it's an elephant -- but snaps shut when talking to the boss requires a different conjugation
Because it's not "that's a lot to remember"; it's "no I can't (won't) even process that".
Though perhaps it might help if you elaborated a little on the nature of the problem rather than simply making a Broccoli Face at the whole concept

_________________
<Anaxandridas> How many artists do you know get paid?
<Anaxandridas> Seriously, name five.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:47 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:58 pm
Posts: 807
Kereb wrote:
Yeah but you're doing that to yourself
If you can learn noun systems with gender, or bantu style noun classes, or animacy hierarchies, and all the ways that these things interact with other bits in the language to create concords or syntactic fuckery or whatever, then you can learn the same idea when it concerns people
You've set up a Valve in your mind -- that's open to a chair being feminine or a verb being marked differently when its subject is a tree vs when it's an elephant -- but snaps shut when talking to the boss requires a different conjugation
Because it's not "that's a lot to remember"; it's "no I can't (won't) even process that".
Though perhaps it might help if you elaborated a little on the nature of the problem rather than simply making a Broccoli Face at the whole concept

You've pretty much described my problem to a T. (I happen to like broccoli and asparagus; maybe "canteloupe face" would do better for me.)
I can resolve to learn these things, and begin to try to learn these things, and just can't finish.
I had the same type of problem trying to read Marx's Das Kapital. I wanted to read it but it was just too boring to finish. (Rather like Jane Eyre that way).

___________________________________________________________________________________________

[EDIT]:
I also have no problem with "social distance", for instance familiar vs stranger and various others.
Nor with register, for instance formal vs informal and others.
It's only having humilifics and honorifics affect valence (or some other grammatical category not naturally related to social status) that throws me off.

[/EDIT]


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group