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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:47 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:18 am 
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Examples in Baranxe'i:

Nikãb þinun ha’inun Dźēk sepnānis varānem.
nika<n>b þin-u-n ha'in-u-n Dźēk sepn-ān-i-s var-ān-e-m
house<ACC> PROX-INAN-ACC REL-INAN-ACC Jack build-PST-M-ABS see-PST-ANIM-1.SG

I saw the house which Jack built.

Valem ēþ Dźēk mandun nikãb sepnānis.
val-e-m ēþ Dźēk mand-u-n nika<n>b sepn-ān-i-s
know-ANIM-1.SG that Jack DIST-INAN-ACC house<ACC> build-PST-M-ABS

I know that Jack built that house.

Nikãb þinun ha’inuf xõ Dźēk hirdkānikśa varānem.
nika<n>b þin-u-n ha'in-u-f xõ Jack hird-k-ān-i-s-ka var-ān-e-m
house<ACC> PROX-INAN-ACC REL-INAN-ADPOS in Jack push-PASS-PST-M-ABS-3.PASS.ABS see-PST-ANIM-1.SG

I see the house where Jack was born.

Valem ēþ valet. | Valem ēþ valetun.
val-e-m ēþ val-e-t | val-e-m ēþ val-e-t=un
know-ANIM-1.SG that know-ANIM-2.SG | know-ANIM-1.SG ēþ know-ANIM-2.SG=3.INAN.SG.ACC

I know that you know. | I know that you know it.

So, the relative clauses are along the lines of "I saw the house; that, [which Jack built]|[in which Jack was born]". The proximal pronoun þinā agrees with the noun in the head clause, the relative pronoun ha’inā agrees with its role in the subordinate clause.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:39 am 
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Sentalian:
Djakip kà kezamoogy mo vinà vàgy.
Jack-NOM 3.ACC build-PAST-PFV REL house-DEF.ACC see-PFV
I saw the house that [Jack built it].

Djakip làc vinmà kezamoogy maa leet.
Jack-NOM that house-DEM.ACC build-PAST-PFV COMP know
I know that [Jack built that house].

Djakip kà dò t'uudmoogy mo vinà vàgy.
Jack-NOM 3.LOC in be.born-PAST-PFV REL house-DEF.ACC see-PFV
I saw the house that [Jack was born in it].

Syyp nu leet maa (gamup) leet.
2.NOM 3.ACC know COMP (1S.NOM) know
I know that you know it.

(The 1st person subject is implicit in all of these, except possibly the last one – note that there is a different particle used for attributive relative clauses, mo, which I have marked REL for relativizer, and for complements of verbs, maa, which I have marked COMP for complementizer. Effectively, REL is treated as an adjectival phrase and COMP is treated as a nominal phrase...)


Last edited by finlay on Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:54 am 
Sumerul
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Panceor:
Lotpir kikosort pon Zak noisun' ki 'te.
see<PAST-1S> DEF-house REL Jack [build] 3S PAST-build
I saw the house that [Jack built it].
[ˈɫɔtpɪɾ kiˈgɔːzoɾt pɔn tsak ˈnɔ.iːzun ki tɛ]

Epira pon Zak noisun' pa kosort 'te.
know<1S> REL Jack [build] that house PAST-build
I know that [Jack built that house].
[ˈɛːbɪɾɐ pɔn tsak ˈnɔiːzun pa ˈkɔːzoɾt tɛ]

Lotpir kikosort pon Zak nun' pekol 'ta.
see<PAST-1S> DEF-house REL Jack [be.born] there PAST-be.born
I saw the house that [Jack was born there].
[ˈɫɔtpɪɾ kiˈgɔːzoɾt pɔn tsak nun ˈpɛːgoɫ ta]

Epira pon ekira.
know<1S> REL know<2S.INTR>
I know that you know.
[ˈɛːbɪɾɐ pɔn ˈɛːgɪɾɐ]


Umpát:
Kui kpas ra kain tákui macín pi Tsak.
PAST.PFV see 1S house REL=PAST.PFV build-PASS AGT Jack
I saw the house [that was built by Jack].
[kʊɪ kpas la kain ˈtagɨː məˈʔin pɪ tsax]

Ni samú ra nákui mací Tsak uit kain.
PRES.IPFV know 1S COMP=PAST.PFV build Jack this house.
I know that Jack built this house.
[ni səˈmu la ˈnagɨː məˈʔi tsax ʊɪs kain]

Kui kpas ra kain ap tákui rímpu Tsak.
PAST.PFV see 1S house in REL=PAST.PFV be.born Jack.
I saw the house [in which Jack was born].
[kʊɪ kpas la kain af ˈtagɨː ˈlimbɨ tsax]

Ni samú ra náni samú can.
PRES.IPFV know 1S COMP=PRES.IPFV know 2S
I know that you know.
[ni səˈmu la ˈnanɨ səˈmu ʔan]


Yaufulti:
Zekepu tenufuzupipenutuu fuituifiisu tenuzufufuite.
Jack-NOM NFUT-PFV-make-AGR.REL-3-REL COUNT.DEF-house-ACC NFUT-PFV-see-AGR-1
I saw the house that Jack built.
[ˈʒɛːɣɛbo ˈtɛ̃ːduvoˌʒuβipˌnunuː ˈfuiðuiˌviːzu ˈtɛ̃ːduʒoˌvuvuiθ]

Zekepu zuituifiisu tenufuzupizuinutuu lugusetapete.
Jack-NOM COUNT.OBV-house-ACC NFUT-PFV-make-AGR-3-REL IPFV-know-AGR-1.
I know that Jack built that house.
[ˈʒɛːɣɛbo ˈʒuiðuiˌviːzu ˈtɛ̃ːduvoˌʒuβiʒoiˌnunuː ˈluɣusˌtɑːbɛt]

Zekepu nupele tenuyelyanutuu fuituifiisu tenuzufufuite.
Jack-NOM 3.COUNT-LOC NFUT-PFV-be.born-3-REL COUNT.DEF-house-ACC NFUT-PFV-see-AGR-1
I saw the house that [Jack was born in it].
[ˈʒɛːɣɛbo ˈnumɛl ˈtɛ̃ːdujəlˌjɑːnuˌnuː ˈfuiðuiˌviːzu ˈtɛ̃ːduʒoˌvuvuiθ]

Lugusetapezatuu lugusetapete.
IPFV-know-AGR-2-REL IPFV-know-AGR-1
I know that you know.
[ˈluɣusˌtɑːbɛdʒəˌduː ˈluɣusˌtɑːbɛt]


Last edited by finlay on Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:01 am 
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Last edited by Thry on Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:07 am 
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Tentative Asuāneica:

Meicanqe qainun Jek cepaunic vraunu.
[ˈmicçɑnʔə ˈʔɛnun ɟʝɛk ˈcçɛpɒnicç ˈvɻɒnu]
meic-n-qe qain-u-n Jek cep-aun-i-c vr-aun-u
house-ACC-DEF REL-INAN-ACC Jack build-PST-M-ABS see-PST-1.SG

I saw the house [which [Jack built]].

Vrṇratu eṭ Jek meicansa cepaunic.
[vɻ̩ɳˈɻɑtu ɛʈ ɟʝɛk ˈmicçɑnsɑˈcçɛpɒnicç]
vr-rat-u eṭ Jek meic-n-sa cep-aun-i-c
see-stand-1.SG that Jack house-ACC-DIST build-PST-M-ABS

I know that [Jack built that house].

Meicanqe qainuc Jek ūdainaunainic vraunu.
[ˈmicçɑnʔɛ ˈʔɛnucç ɟʝɛk uːˈdɛnɒnɛnicç ˈvɻɒnu]
meic-n-qe qain-u-c Jek ūdain-aun-ain-i-c vr-aun-u
house-ACC-DEF REL-INAN-ADE Jack give_birth-PST-PASS-M-ABS see-PST-1.SG

I saw the house [in which [Jack was born]].

Vrṇratu eṭ vrṇratet.
[vɻ̩ɳˈɻɑtu ɛʈ vɻ̩ɳˈɻɑtɛt]
vrṇ-rat-u eṭ vrn-rat-e-t.
see-stand-1.SG that see-stand-ANIM-2

I know that you know.


Asuāneica does away with the double marking, although the suffixed definite marker -qe is related to the alternate Baranxe'i proximal clitic -hē, so the structure is superficially similar.

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Last edited by MisterBernie on Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:17 am 
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Thípi waŋ Jack káǧe kiŋ waŋbláke.
thí=pi=waŋ | Jack | káǧA=kiŋ | waŋ<wa>yáŋkA
dwell=NMLZ=DET | Jack | make=DEF | see<1S.ACT>
I see the house that Jack built.

Jack é čha thípi kiŋ hé káǧiŋ na ečhél slolwáye.
Jack | é=čha | thí=pi=kiŋ | hé | káǧA=na | ečhél | slol<wa>yÁ
Jack | be.ID=REL | dwell=NMLZ=DEF | MED | make=CONJ | in.QUOT.way | know<1S.ACT>
Jack is the one who built that house and I know it to be that way.
~
Jack thípi kiŋ hé (káǧa čha / káǧe kiŋ) slolwáye.
Jack | thí=pi=kiŋ | hé | (káǧA=čha / káǧA=kiŋ) | slol<wa>yÁ
Jack | dwell=NMLZ=DEF | MED | (make=REL / make=DEF) | know<1S.ACT>
I know (that / the fact that) Jack built that house.

Thípi waŋ Jack él yuhápi kiŋ waŋbláke.
thí=pi=waŋ | Jack | é-l | yuhá=pi=kiŋ | waŋ<wa>yáŋkA
dwell=NMLZ=DET | Jack | be:ID-IMPRS.SPAT.ADV | have=PASS=DEF | see<1S.ACT>
I see the house that Jack was born in.

Slolyáye kiŋ slolwáye. ~ Slolyáya čha slolwáye.
slol<ya>yÁ=kiŋ | slol<wa>yÁ ~ slol<ya>yÁ=čha | slol<wa>yÁ
know<2.ACT>=DEF | know<1S.ACT> ~ know<2.ACT>=REL | know<1S.ACT>
I know (the fact) that you know. ~ I know that you know.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:12 pm 
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Amíre na xótamal Ch'ac má ya óxta.
/a-ˈmir-e na ˈʃotam-əl t͡ʃʼak ˈma ja ˈoʃtə/
INAN.INDIR-see-1PS.ABS DAT build-INAN.ABS Jack ACC REL house-NOMZ
I saw the house that Jack built.

Tlemáque ma xótamal Ch'ac ma óxta.
/t͡ɬə-ˈmak-e ma ˈʃotam-əl t͡ʃʼak ma ˈoʃtə/
3PS.INDIR-know-1PS.ABS COMP build-INAN.ABS Jack ACC house
I know that Jack built that house.

Amíre na arópsa Ch'ac cuá ya óxta.
/a-ˈmir-e na a-ˈrops-ə t͡ʃʼak ˈkʷa ja ˈoʃtə/
INAN.INDIR-see-1PS.ABS DAT INAN.INDIR-be.born-3PS.ABS Jack LOC REL house
I saw the house where Jack was born.

Temáque ma amácat má.
/tə-ˈmak-e ma a-ˈmak-ət ˈma/
2PS.INDIR-know-1PS.ABS COMP INAN.INDIR-know-2PS.ABS COMP
I know that you know (it).
(knowing is in the class of verbs that I call propositional verbs, so it doesn't actually work without a complement clause; the second clause here is marked as null, which is why the complementizer is stressed)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:50 pm 
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Yagalian would handle most of these using a combination of the causal affix and reflexive pronouns.

I saw the house that Jack built.
Cjamü maijeshapa Tjekgë sje Casaüak bbaizaspotja.
/çɐmɨ mɐijɛshɐpɐ tʃɛkɡə ʃɛ kɐsɐɨɐk ɓɐizɐspotʃɐ/
cjam-ü- maije-s-ha-pa tjek-gë sje casa-üak bbaiza-s-po-tja
PRN-1st-INT see-IND-NPS-PRO Jack-CAU RFX house-PSD build-IND-PAS-PER
Literally, "I seeing/will be seeing Jack-who caused himself House-which is owned to have been built(in the past)."
Or, "I am viewing the house which Jack himself built."

That verb, maije, is so flexible it can be used for knowing as well though the standard would be satja, both are intransitive however and so neither affects grammar in a different way from the other.

I know that Jack built that house.
Cjamü satjashapa Tjekgë sje Casaüak bbaizashatja.
/çɐmɨ sɐtʃɐshɐpɐ tʃɛkɡə ʃɛ kɐsɐɨɐk ɓɐizɐshɐtʃɐ/
cjam-ü-0 satja-s-ha-pa tjek-gë sje casa-üak bbaiza-s-ha-tja
PRN-1st-INT know-IND-NPS-PRO Jack-CAU RFX build-IND-NPS-PER

The last phrase is treated as a normal Transitive phrase taking the Ergative and Accusative affixes for the last two nouns.

I saw the house where Jack was born.
Cjamü maijeshapa Tjeklhüp Casabbët napaispotja.
/çɐmɨ mɐijɛshɐpɐ tʃɛkɬɨp kɐsɐɓət nɐpɐispotʃɐ/
cjam-ü-0 maije-s-ha-pa tjek-lhüp casa-bbët napai-s-po-tja
PRN-1st-INT see-IND-NPS-PRO Jack-ERG house-ACC create-IND-PAS-PER

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:07 pm 
Avisaru
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In Mekoshan all three of the subordinated verbs takes relative clause morphology, but in the 3rd one the subordinate clause follows the locative case particle è.

Aasayí deed hos téibžégh Jekh.
aa-sa-í deed hos téi-bžégh Jekh.
1SG.NOM-see.PFV-3SG.N.ACC ACC.DEF house 3SG.REL-build.PFV Jack

Aano téibžéghí Jekh da dé hos.
aa-no téi-bžégh-í Jekh da dé hos.
1SG-know 3SG.REL-build.PFV Jack ACC that house

Aasayí deed hos è téivozzòr Jekh.
aa-sa-í deed hos è téi-vozzòr Jekh.
1SG.NOM-see.PFV-3SG.N.ACC ACC.DEF house LOC 3SG.REL-is.born.PFV Jack

I belive it was I that gave the "I know that you know" example elsewhere, I'm not going to repeat it. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:24 pm 
Avisaru
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I saw the house that Jack built.
Minne soier le dom que Jack fer.
[min: sua lu ta:m ku tsak psa]

I know that Jack built that house.
Minne sirer que Jack fer ceci dom.
[min: sila ku tsak psa saisi ta:m]


I saw the house where Jack was born.
Minne soier le dom qu'end Jack s'es natid.
[min: sua lu ta:m kan tsak sas nati]

I know that you know.
Minne soier que toua soier.
[min: sua ku tua sua]

And, regarding later posts,

I know what you know.
Minne soier l'ac que toua soier.
[min: sua lak:u tua sua]


Last edited by maıráí on Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:46 pm 
Sumerul
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<fer> [psa]?

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Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:02 pm 
Sanci
Sanci

Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:28 am
Posts: 74
Location: Katy, Texas


Last edited by lctrgzmn on Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:57 am 
Smeric
Smeric
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Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 1:48 pm
Posts: 1128
Location: Litareng, Keynami
Leutsprech:

Ich sah das Haus, das Jack baute.
1S.NOM see.1S.PST DEF.ACC.SG house, REL.ACC.SG Jack build-PST-3S
'I saw the house that Jack built.'

Ich weiß, dass John das Haus da baute.
1S.NOM know-1S, that John DEF.ACC.SG house there build-PST-3S
'I know that Jack built that house.'

Ich sah das Haus, wo Jack geboren wurde.
1S.NOM see.1S.PST DEF.ACC.SG house, where Jack PTCP-bear.PTCP become.PST-3S
'I saw the house where Jack was born.'

Ich weiß, was du weißt.
1S.NOM know-1S, what 2S.NOM know-2S.
'I know that you know.'


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:01 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
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Joined: Sat May 03, 2003 3:04 pm
Posts: 821
I would recommend against using the beta in your conlang's orthography-- it sticks out and looks ugly. Use "bh" or something instead. (I assume that stands for /B/?...) Also what's with the capital letters, are you going some kinda Klingon style or something?

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"It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be said, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is.' Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."
– The Gospel of Thomas


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:06 am 
Sanci
Sanci

Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:28 am
Posts: 74
Location: Katy, Texas


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:08 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
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Joined: Sat May 03, 2003 3:04 pm
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I have no idea what you're talking about.

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"It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be said, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is.' Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."
– The Gospel of Thomas


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:14 am 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: Miracle, Inc. Headquarters

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[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:22 am 
Sumerul
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Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
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Location: the Imperial Corridor

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:59 am 
Smeric
Smeric
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:14 pm
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Location: Berlin, Germany

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Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = , ACS / ICS = , GDV = , SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:19 am 
Avisaru
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Location: Oktoberfestonia

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- Another conlanging/conworlding blog.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:37 am 
Smeric
Smeric

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Location: Spain


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:06 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
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Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 1:48 pm
Posts: 1128
Location: Litareng, Keynami


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:13 pm 
Sumerul
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
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