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 Post subject: Latin-Sindarin Hybrid
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:17 pm 
Smeric
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So I hope this is the right place. What I've done with Latin and Sindarin is more complex than a mere cipher. Its grammar includes things from English, Spanish, Latin and Sindarin. The vocabulary is mainly obtained through a set of rules from Latin roots or Latin-like adapted roots. Consequently the lexicon is something in constant expansion that can get richer anytime, having words coined with a systematic methodology.

This is what I wanted, since my original intention was to have something useable anytime with the feel of Sindarin and I'm too lazy to invent a whole lexicon (plus, in this case, you already have Tolkien's Sindarin for that - I'm not Tolkien, and this is done totally out of admiration and respect for his work). There are a few words directly from Sindarin or invented by myself, but that's a minority. It won't be uncommon to find irregularities as it's not yet settled. I haven't written any grammar before, so I'll go step by step here.

I've seen this thing being called a bogolang, a hybrilang, etc. but I chose not to include any of these names in the title since I saw no general consensus on the net and I thought it may give a misleading first impression. In any case, I hope what it is is clear from the previous description.

The source of vocabulary

First of all, one needs the lexicon ready. This is the "ciphering" part. In order for something to be like Sindarin, it has to come from something which is, historically, as the language which evolved into Sindarin. This language was Common Eldarin, in one of its stages. It has a phonology not very distinct from Latin; nevertheless, some minor adaptations are needed. Once these adaptations are made, I'll say the roots are in "Latin". Firstly, gemination is lost as distinctive in plosives. Secondly, the phoneme /w/ is replaced by /gw/ (vinum /winu/ to *gwinu /gwinu/), and so the sequence /g/ + /w/ is a new phoneme /gʷ/ (sanguis: /gwis/ to *sangue /gʷe/). This minor distinction is very relevant.

This is what "Latin" phonology looks like, more or less:

Nasal: /m n/ <m n>
Plosives: /p b t d k g kʷ gʷ/ <p b t d k g qu gu>
Fricatives: /f s/ <f s>
Liquids: /r l/ <r l>
Semivowels /j/ <i>

Vowels: /a e i o u/ <a e i o u> Diphthongs: /ai oi aw/ <ae oe au>

From here we can get the hybrid conlang's words with a regular set of sound changes. The consonantal changes are more regular and realistic than the vowel changes. Vowels, having less room to vary, follow some irregular rules that I made up without any basis on Sindarin. But before the sound changes, I'll say how roots are extracted from each part of speech.

Nouns and adjectives Take the accusative form and drop -m, the result should end in one of the three vowels -a, -e or -u. For adjectives do the same with masculine gender (gender is going to be lost and it doesn't matter anyway, because all final vowels will fall later). For example:

porta, -ae f. - *porta door
filius, -ii m. - *filiu son
rex, regis m. - *rege king
senatus, -us m. - *senatu senate
bos, bovis m. - *bogwe cow, bull
malus, -a, -um - *malu evil, bad
vetus, veteris - *vetere veteran, old
prudens, prudentis - *prudente prudent
acer, acris, acre - *acre sour, bitter

Verbs There are two verb classes: a-verbs and i-verbs or primitive verbs. For a-verbs, which encompass the Latin first conjugation, the root ends in the infinitive's a, dropping the -re from -are. Even though Latin verbs are listed by their first person singular present indicative tense, I will list them by their infinitives here because it's more convenient. For i-verbs, which encompass the rest of the verbs, drop the whole infinitive ending and append an -e:

amare > *ama- love
laudare > *lauda- praise
loqui > *loque- talk
timere > *time- fear
facere > *face- do, make
emere > *eme- buy
partire > *parte- split
venire > *gwene- come

Prepositions, adverbs and other parts of speech

For these, the root normally coincides with the "Latin" form resulting from mere phonological adaptation. Adverbs are largely interchangeable with adjectives in the conlang, or can be derived internally (I'll talk about that later for the conlang's internal morphology). However, most prepositions and other parts of speech do not come from Latin and are either invented by me or taken directly from Sindarin. Among words used as in Latin, we have:

bene > *bene well
inter > *inter between
sive > *sigwe or

Once the word is phonologically adapted and we have the proper root shape, we can apply the sound changes for the consonants and change the vowels in a special pattern. I'll describe these next post.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:02 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:31 pm 
Avisaru
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in the meantime can we see a sample text

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:57 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:57 pm 
Smeric
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Latin = cool and I'm learning it.
Sindarin = cool and I'm also learning it.

the Hybrid = even cooler, and I really do want to learn it. I think it would help me find a deeper interest in Latin and diachronics.

What would the name of the conlang be?

hibridam (hybrida) > heveredh i-everedh
or
miscellum > mescil or mescill? i-vescil (would a double <ll> become /ɬ/?)

What does happen to those /sk/ clusters? I keep confusing with them with /ks/ which seem to simplify to /s/?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:11 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:54 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:08 pm 
Smeric
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Two things: before doing the post about vowels (which I'll probably do tomorrow), I forgot to mention assimilation, which also happens. The changes are more sporadic and more intuitive (they happen as in Latin) so that's why I didn't make them explicit. But if for example s-f meet in syllable boundaries, make them -ff- (like in Latin dis-facilis to difficilis).

If nasals meet, they usually assimilate too: -mn- > -nn-; -nm- > -mm- > -m-

Latin's own plosive and nasal geminates tend to simplify (e.g. summa to suma, bucca to buca) before anything else (buca won't undergo an occlusive change, for example).

Secondly, a small piece of poetry I just translated from a song by Ensiferum:

Audh i glavad i-chennin
[awð i.'gla.vad i.'çɛ.n:in]
hear-IMP the call-VbN fall-PP-PLU-DEF
Hear the call of the fallen ones

Sabed lain in gwand timment.
['sa.bɛd lajn iŋ.'gwand 'ti.m:ɛnt]
know-VbN those which-PL go-PAST-3S time-3P-POSS
Wisdom of those whose time has gone

Gwew 'wedeg braw felien brennad,
[gwɛw 'wɛ.dɛg bɾaw 'fɛ.ljɛn brɛn.'nad]
live-IMP life-2S-POSS brave son-1S-POSS firstborn
Live your life bravely my first born son,

Mi bo'engaimp, lotha, u-gorr!
[mi bɔ.ɛŋ.'gajmp 'lɔ.θa u.'gɔr]
in battlefield-P fight-IMP run-NEG-IMP
On battlefields, fight, don't run!

Roots used: *aude- (audire) to hear, *clama- (clamare) to call, *cade- (cadere) to fall, *sape- (sapere) to know, *gwade- (vadere) to go, *tempu- (tempus, -oris n.) time, *gwigwere (vivere) to live, *bragwu- (bravus, -a, -um) brave, *filiu- (filius) son, *primu- (primus) first, *natu- (natus) born, *pugna- (pugna) battle, *campu- (campus) field, *lucta- (luctare) to fight, *curre- (currere) to run.


Last edited by Thry on Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:18 pm 
Smeric
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Yes I do know of Ardalambion, and I have a Sindarin lesson PDF.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:24 pm 
Lebom
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I think some more example sentences are in order.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:21 pm 
Smeric
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I believe that scl- initial roots are all borrowings from Greek.

ie. sclodia sled, sclopetum rifle

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:13 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:08 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:15 pm 
Lebom
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I wish I had more to offer the conversation, but for what it's worth I think this whole idea is brilliant. I have been conlanging since 2004 and this is the first conlang of someone else's that I've actually wanted to learn. I hope you develop the grammar and vocab to that point.

Are you using the (or another program of the sort), or are you making these sound changes by hand?

Again, fascinating thread, keep up the good work.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:01 am 
Smeric
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I agree. If I were given wordlists and grammar, I'd actually learn this.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:52 am 
Avisaru
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Me too, perhaps. This looks good, isn't too foreign or difficult, and develops at a good pace. :D


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:59 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:19 am 
Smeric
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This is nice stuff - a romlang of a kind I haven't seen yet. I like how it all works out and acquires a unique flavour unlike any Romance language - real or imaginary - I have knowledge of. It is not even similar to Brithenig, which is based on Welsh sound changes; after all, Sindarin was strongly influenced by Welsh, though Tolkien did not simply apply the sound changes of Welsh to Common Eldarin but worked out something independent.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:31 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:52 am 
Smeric
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@blank stare II Thank you once again :)! I thought this would pass away because nobody would be interested, but I'm glad to see I was wrong.

I know the program, but I'm much more manual (I can invent them as I need them when translating something, and since the spirit is more cipherish than conlangish I don't need it). Also, I once read in Ardalambion that Tolkien's words seem to be "carefully hand-crafted". I favor that. In addition, at least at this point, some rules are just being settled and I prefer to pay attention to the process as much as possible.

@Bristel and Mr. Z, thank you for your views on this. Actually, by the time I finish this thread, anybody should be able to write a text - all the grammar is Sindarinish (ultimately Indo-european) and the (sometimes huge) holes I found were supplied by ideas of my own or something else. I'll try to make some posts covering the main points of syntax and other areas, and I'll try to make it fit and not feel "forced". I hope I've succeded on that, it'll be nice to hear other people's opinions.

For wordlists: the good thing that "ciphers" have is that you don't need a wordlist. If you pick a word, apply the rules I described (sorry if I forgot any, you can try), you'll end up with an useable root! That's already good Silladen, by definition. Except for determinants, pronouns and the kind (which I'll try to present, I've already got a more-or-less stable system), the rest is simple as that. If any time you're trying to translate something and you doubt in a morpheme, a vowel or a cluster, I have no problem in trying to solve it.

@Izambri, thank you as well :). Is there any thread about Elnian? Good to see the idea occurred to other people, with Sindarin. I guess that's because if you tried a mix between Quenya and Latin, you'd end up with Latin!

@Weepingelf, I have to agree with you (and thank you). Even if not every one, some words really get a shape I like. For example take enfir (Latin *inferni), the word for hell, I really like that one. It reminds me of why I liked Sindarin so much. Tolkien did a good job.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:54 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:13 pm 
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