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a congress of convoluted conworldery
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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:12 pm 
Smeric
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@Eandil: You should draw diagrams and illustrations to make your stuff easier to understand.

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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:34 pm 
Smeric
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Qwynegold wrote:
@Eandil: You should draw diagrams and illustrations to make your stuff easier to understand.

I like the suggestion, but I must admit I don't really know how to upload images or insert them in a text.


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:02 pm 
Sanci
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Eandil, I suggested your magic system implies a world without entropy because in Earth's universe, and presumably many Earth-like conworlds, entropy cannot be reversed. Hawking explains it well in A Brief History of Time. I'll try here.

In short, there are infinitely more disordered states than ordered states. Imagine all the atoms in a tea cup. There is only one possible arrangement of those atoms which forms a whole tea cup, whereas there are an infinite number of arrangements which don't.

It has been demonstrated that the amount of energy waste produced in the creation of an ordered state will always be greater than the order produced. For example, if you hand-crafted a teacup (thereby creating order), your simply exuding body heat would have created quadrillions of times more disorder in the universe than the order you created by crafting the cup.

Because your magic system implies things about order and chaos, and particularly because you stipulate that either can "win," this implies that your magic system doesn't apply to a universe with entropy.

Thanks for the answers to all the other questions. I understand now.


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:51 pm 
Smeric
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Observer wrote:
Eandil, I suggested your magic system implies a world without entropy because in Earth's universe, and presumably many Earth-like conworlds, entropy cannot be reversed. Hawking explains it well in A Brief History of Time. I'll try here.

In short, there are infinitely more disordered states than ordered states. Imagine all the atoms in a tea cup. There is only one possible arrangement of those atoms which forms a whole tea cup, whereas there are an infinite number of arrangements which don't.

It has been demonstrated that the amount of energy waste produced in the creation of an ordered state will always be greater than the order produced. For example, if you hand-crafted a teacup (thereby creating order), your simply exuding body heat would have created quadrillions of times more disorder in the universe than the order you created by crafting the cup.

Because your magic system implies things about order and chaos, and particularly because you stipulate that either can "win," this implies that your magic system doesn't apply to a universe with entropy.

But "order winning" doesn't mean reversing entropy. It just means that sentient beings which are labeled as "good" prevent other sentient beings which are labeled as "evil" from further advancing the universe towards a chaotic state. But this refers more to concerns about biology and sentient affairs (wars, societies, etc.). In this case, apply chaos and order to for example life. Don't think about long-term issues, just the fact that demons will want to destroy other societies, cities, wreak havoc, etc. On the contrary, good beings will try to prevent that, by continuing building cities and just their life.

It's not that ice melting is morally evil because it increases entropy, or that the purpose of angelic beings is achieving the maximum-energy state in the universe; it's more like that, when cultures meet, evil ones will seek to destroy others and good ones will be constructive. Holy magic seeks to regenerate wounds to the normal state, the ordered state of the body (which refers to biology); shadow magic tends to break it apart. Demons arose from the sea of chaos and they seek to go back to it, but the rest of beings don't share these goals.

And, most importantly, the concept of entropy applies to a closed system, but the particular universe needn't be a closed system, getting energy from somewhere else (a bigger multiverse cosmos, maybe) (also again, I was thinking of order and chaos as more in "biologically constructive/destructive" rather than physical). Does this make more sense?


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:00 pm 
Smeric
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Location: Spain
Also, take the example of life itself. The genetic code is a molecule which, let's say (for simplicity's sake) intends to create an order. Even if the total entropy of the universe, the multiverse, the cosmos, etc. whatever cannot be reversed, that doesn't prevent life from being ordered in the meanwhile, reversing "local" entropy. You and me everyday eat and drink so that our biological structures mantain their order. However, this attempt at order does not prevent entropy from existing in our universe.


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:11 pm 
Sanci
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Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:07 pm
Posts: 40
I do understand what you're saying and doing now. My confusion came from not recognizing that you were arbitrarily assigning words and values. I thought you were saying that chaos and order in the real world were this way and that way. Because of course, eating and drinking in Earth's universe does indeed produce more entropy in the form of body heat than order in the form of maintaining health, but a conworld can work differently.


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:44 pm 
Smeric
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Eandil wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:
@Eandil: You should draw diagrams and illustrations to make your stuff easier to understand.

I like the suggestion, but I must admit I don't really know how to upload images or insert them in a text.

You upload to some site, like ImageShack for example and just copy down the link you get and paste it in the post. Or you can upload directly to this forum with the "Upload attachment" box.

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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:05 pm 
Sanci
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I've been thinking about a magic system lately...

Magic can be performed by communicating with spirits. These spirits require payment to do things for humans. Payment can be things like gold, certain plants, etc., or in the case of evil spirits, human blood or whole humans. It is not known why the spirits want these things.

There are also wizards, people who have an innate ability to do magic and do not need to communicate with spirits.

I've also thought about a magical language...maybe you would need to use this language to communicate with spirits.

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