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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:02 am 
Avisaru
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Qwynegold wrote:
Eandil wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:
Aha, well I haven't played that game. (Yet oddly I get e-mail from them saying that they suspect I'm trying to sell "my" account. :?)

That's just phishing, actually. It's very common from WoW since it's very extended, I also got it even after my account wasn't linked to my own e-mail anymore.

Oh, good thing I never responded to those directly. Who's doing this?


....
-People who want your credit card
-People who want to use your WoW account to farm gold

Which I can't be certain.

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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:13 am 
Smeric
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Qwynegold wrote:
Eandil wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:
Aha, well I haven't played that game. (Yet oddly I get e-mail from them saying that they suspect I'm trying to sell "my" account. :?)

That's just phishing, actually. It's very common from WoW since it's very extended, I also got it even after my account wasn't linked to my own e-mail anymore.

Oh, good thing I never responded to those directly. Who's doing this?


No idea really. But it can be dangerous, specially for people who are requested to give their passwords, credit card numbers or something similar (for people who have an account and have at least the doubt, actually).


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:45 am 
Smeric
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Qwynegold wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:
...

Hmm, hard to understand, but it sounds interesting.


The basic ideas of morphic fields and morphic resonance come from Rupert Sheldrake; how these could be used to weave magic is my own idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:29 pm 
Smeric
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Schools of magic

Elemental magic: Ignis

As many of you probably know, ignis is the Latin word for fire, and also the root underlying the word igneous.

Fire magic (ignis, magia ignea) is magic which uses igneous aether as the source of aether. It's a very energetic magic, since it needs many times not merely to ignite air, but also generate mass (like burning rocks) or make them move. The concept energetic is probably not accurate.

Let me introduce a new term: magical energicity. Magical energicity is the maximum amount of energy produced per aetherial consumed. That is, a spell is very energetic when it produces a lot of energy with a given amount of one class of aether. It's measured in joules per aetherial in the SI, J/ae. For example, if a spell has an energicity of 2 J/ae, that means theoretically you produce 2 joules of energy with 1 aetherial of whatever class and family the spell uses.

When studying one kind of magic, we'll have to deal with its aether, its expression and the known spells. The first is studied by aetherology, and the last by carminology. Fire magic is particularly studied by pyromancy. One who studies pyromancy is a pyromancer, and is usually a wizard who specializes on fire as well.

Igneous aether constitutes a class which is not specially homogeneous but not really heterogeneous either. All fire spells involve combustion; some involve mass-creation, winds to spread the fire, the making of substances which aid combustion, etc. This is the reason why most families of igneous aether are quite energetic. Each family of aether involves spells with similar energicity and which also have similar effects. For example, the spell fire ball, creating a ball of fire and hurling it at the enemy, is from a different family than the spell fire blast, which creates an implosion at the enemy, burning him from the inside.

Fire magic is one of the most common and easiest-to-master schools of magic. It may contain the simplest spells to cast, but nevertheless it also contains spells which are hard to master and very powerful. Wizards generally learn fire magic first. It's really destructive, as its correspondent element, fire. It causes great damage to the body, since it burns and makes it dehydrate. Fire magic generally never hurts the soul unless some spell is imbued with moral intent (which is rare and hard), or unless it mixes with moral magic (I'll talk about magical mixtures later).

Circumstances which are favorable for fire magic include the presence of things which are related to the spells: every fire spell generates, to some extent, gas O2, which is the reason that you can cast them in a vacuum, but nevertheless it's much harder and will probably fail unless you're an expert (if anything, you'll light a spark). If it can pick up rocks and fuel for combustion, much better. The same goes for flammable gases, but don't take this too far; if you light a fire spell in a closed cave full of flammable gases, you'll just blow up everything including yourself.

Other more abstract favorable conditions include those related to magical sign. Most of these have to do with things which are not directly related to the theory of magic but other underlying contheories of my own, but I'll mention them anyway as I'm thinking them. Since fire is (+), (+) things constitute favorable conditions: males are better pyromancers than women (hah, actually women are better at magic in general, but these are minor differences anyway, just like intelligence in our world). This one is important: fire magic is stronger during daytime. At midday, when the sun incides directly, this effect reaches its maximum. It's the best time to expect a very powerful effect, since your power for that particular school of magic will see itself increased. To a much lesser extent, earth magic, holy magic and others also fit well with fire. But don't take this as a rule; for an exception, you got fire-shadow mixtures, one of the most dangerous combinations.

On to mixtures: magical schools can mix to form hybrid spells. This is different from a combo, which is merely the quick or simultaneous articulation of two separate spells. Real hybrid spells usually imply the mixture of the underlying aethers in complex manners. Among the possible combinations of fire, one can highlight fire-frost combinations (colloquially "elemental magic"), fire-holy combinatins and specially fire-shadow combinations, known as fel fire or hell fire. I'll explain how these work, but not now.

Fire magic is generally very spectacular magic. You can see how the very air around you burns, and it can be very painful. If used carelessly it can lead to self-destruction. The bodily temperature of pyromancers rises over time; non-pyromancers may think they have fever.

Fire spells are damage spells, usually direct damage spells. Some can also have damage over time as a side-effect, but most of the damage potential is instantaneous. The more powerful the spell is, the more damage it does, the more mana it costs and the more time it takes to cast. If a powerful spell is instantaneous, it takes a lot of mana. Some fire spells also consist in making a fiery rain fall over some area; creating pillar of fire, unleashing a wave of fire around you, etc. The more effects it has, the more mana it costs, as a rule. Two fire spells meeting can free a lot of energy in their collision, creating a huge wave of destruction.

There is also a minory of fire protection spells (shields) or utility spells (the later are colloquially "buffs"). A fire protection spell protects from frost magic, not fire one. A spell which protects from fire magic needs to be a frost one, since it wouldn't be very clever to place igneous aetherials around your body; you'd receive the double of damage when a fire spell impacts (because they are additive, they don't neutralize).

Unless your body is made of fire or has it as some sort of metabolism (it's not a joke; fire elementals are like this), there are no healing fire spells - amoral ones, since normally elementals are not moral creatures, just intelligent expressions of their elements.

I think this is a lot for one school. Next one should be frost magic. As always, I'm available for questions and comments.


Last edited by Thry on Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:21 pm 
Sanci
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Thought I'd chime in.

There's magic in my conworld. In early years, it occurred as random events due to it not being fully understood. Many specialists (shamans, medecine men, etc.) emerged and made use of their knowledge to find applications to magic. Then, a few people actually spent their life studying the properties of magic and at least one of them wrote a book (called the Codex or Gwaurne Qaadesh, the "book of knowledge") in which precise details about the practice of magic are found. She wrote it after having teached this practice to many students for a few years, so it was usable material for those left behind. She divided it into four areas:
- telekinetics, the ability to move matter without seemingly applying force on it
- atomics, the ability to manipulate atoms, molecules, etc.
- pyshics, the ability to manipulate minds
- dimensionics, the ability to manipulate space

Magic comes from an ever-present matter, kind of like the aether, called the samri. In order to use magic, it is necessary to absorb samri in one's body to stimulate the brain and then cast the spell. The issue is that one's body isn't made to survive a lot of samri absorptions, notably because it tends to fuse within arteries and veins, eventually blocking bloodway. Some species are more apt to samri absorptions because they evolved in samri-high environment and they thus make the perfect candidate for wizards.

(Local samri depletion isn't a problem while not dealing with batshit crazy wizards willing to absorb huge amounts of samri to cast one spell and die; in any case, life in the perimeter would die because of samri loss)

Absorbing samri requires channels made of certain materials, like samrigit (a stone with a high samri concentration) or other minerals, plants or even living tissue with high samri levels. These are embedded in the skin, virtually anywhere works. The absorption is a voluntary act -- the channel doesn't drain samri inside one's body passively. So, to make the channel work, some magic knowledge is required. Before they were invented, wizards ingested samri food, which took a while to stimulate the brain.

The actual process of spellcasting is complex as it obeys to rules one must learn or create. While there are a limited range of effects to produce through magic, the processing to get the effect must be imprinted in the brain through a lot of practice. It requires a lot of control, concentration and anticipation. The use of symbols, movements and other tools ease the control and concentration requirements and it may be widely different from one "school" to another. Some wizards may use incantations to streamline their thoughts and produce the desired effect, while some other would use movements, either fingers, hands, arms or all of them at the same time; even dancing. The actual practice produces an association between what one does and what happens. This is why wizards always repeat the same thing to produce the same effect. There is no discrete component in an incantation that hints to the effect being a fireball.

A great deal of studies of magic is to study other schools in order to predict spells one could face in their life. This usually involves a lot of espionage from school to school. Also note that "school" is the word I use but it doesn't necessarily imply Harry Potter-like settings. In some culture, for example those in which wizardry is taught only to one's children, the school would be the "family teachings". But yes, there are Harry Potter-like settings, big schools with many students learning magic and usually two or more "schools".

The domain of dimensionics is special because it requires one to predict what will happen to one's body. When, say, trying to open a hole to access an object behind a wall, you can't just open it, put your hand in and feel the area to try and locate the object. Doing so would without doubt give you nausea, headache and probably nosebleed; worse case, seizure or brain hemorrhage. There exists a martial art based on dimensionics. In its region, it is regarded as one of the most beautiful and the hardest feat. It requires a lot of anticipation, both of where your punch or foot will end up related to your opponent but also to where you need to block (or to divert through another dimension-hole) your opponent's next move.

There also exists a few means to increase the amount of samri locally in order to gather more to stimulate the brain longer. Freeing gaseous samri or cutting open people are common practice.

Some things aren't possible to do: raising the dead, calling upon spirits, ... Off of the top of my mind.

I don't think I forgot anything. Feel free to ask questions :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:54 pm 
Smeric
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Ollock wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:
Eandil wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:
Aha, well I haven't played that game. (Yet oddly I get e-mail from them saying that they suspect I'm trying to sell "my" account. :?)

That's just phishing, actually. It's very common from WoW since it's very extended, I also got it even after my account wasn't linked to my own e-mail anymore.

Oh, good thing I never responded to those directly. Who's doing this?


....
-People who want your credit card
-People who want to use your WoW account to farm gold

Which I can't be certain.

Scary shit! I've flagged them as spam now.

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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:07 pm 
Smeric
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Eandil wrote:
Let me introduce a new term: magical energicity. Magical energicity is the maximum amount of energy produced per aetherial consumed. That is, a spell is very energetic when it produces a lot of energy with a given amount of one class of aether. It's measured in aetherial per joule in the SI, ae/J. For example, if a spell has an energicity of 2 ae/J, that means theoretically you produce 2 joules of energy with 1 aetherial of whatever class and family the spell uses.

Wait! Then how do you keep everything in balance? Shouldn't this mean that over time, there will be more and more energy in the world, as people keep using spells that produce more energy than they consume aether?

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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:51 pm 
Smeric
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Qwynegold wrote:
Eandil wrote:
Let me introduce a new term: magical energicity. Magical energicity is the maximum amount of energy produced per aetherial consumed. That is, a spell is very energetic when it produces a lot of energy with a given amount of one class of aether. It's measured in aetherial per joule in the SI, ae/J. For example, if a spell has an energicity of 2 ae/J, that means theoretically you produce 2 joules of energy with 1 aetherial of whatever class and family the spell uses.

Wait! Then how do you keep everything in balance? Shouldn't this mean that over time, there will be more and more energy in the world, as people keep using spells that produce more energy than they consume aether?

Nope. Aetherials as units are an abstract measurement, since aether is not really made up by particles.

Aethers are heterogeneous, not every type of aether is equally energetic. So while raw aether (which can be called arcane aether) does correspond to 1 J, igneous aether can correspond to higher quantities. That is, 1 igneous aetherial is not equivalent to 1 raw aetherial. It's equivalent to x raw aetherials where x is the quantity of joules that it corresponds to (think of it as for example hydrogen, which has one proton; and water, which has 10 protons - it's just that we don't know the internal structure of igneous aether, if any). Your mind can convert igneous aether into raw aether and vice versa, in a subconscious process which liberates or absorbs amounts of aether from the external world, so the practical result is that they are interchangeable within your abilities.

Even with this, you'd be right that as we cast spells there's less and less aether and more and more energy in the universe, but you have to take into account that some beings do something which we'd call "inverse magic". Some non-corporeal beings, natural processes and maybe even some spells convert energy into aether. There's an equilibrium in the end.


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:55 pm 
Avisaru
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Eandil wrote:
There's an equilibrium in the end.
If you enchant a plain copper disk to spin at ever-increasing speed and also to hold itself together magically, will its edge reach the speed of light before the strengthening enchantment totally depletes the local aether?

(Substitute other spells if necessary)


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:36 pm 
Smeric
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Bob Johnson wrote:
Eandil wrote:
There's an equilibrium in the end.
If you enchant a plain copper disk to spin at ever-increasing speed and also to hold itself together magically, will its edge reach the speed of light before the strengthening enchantment totally depletes the local aether?

(Substitute other spells if necessary)

Normally, the amount of aether humans can handle is much lower than that. Items don't "maintain" spells, if you enchant an item it acquires normally a static attribute, not a vector like acceleration which increases velocity over time.

What you could do for a similar effect is channel a spell (which means you have to keep casting it as long as you want the effect to last) to make a certain force act upon the object, provoking an acceleration (in this case, since it's spinning, angular acceleration). The limit to this channeling is on your mana pool but mainly on your potestas, that is, the maximum effect you can produce (which is generally lower than your mana pool or total quantity of magical energy; think of total lung capacity and the actual time you feel good enough holding breath).

It's very hard to "deplete" local aether. Only very powerful beings can do this in very special occasions (the quantities are enormous), I can imagine only in important magical wars where ultimate spells are cast. In these cases, yes, it could reach the speed of light or other physical limits. If the total free-roaming aether in an area (which is a very big amount - compare a spell to breathing and a building filled with air) were consumed, it would provoke an aether-vacuum and the closest ley lines ("rivers" of aether) would interrupt their flux to fill it up, since nature abhors a vacuum. This situation would create probably a very chaotic environment where it's hard for other beings to cast spells, and your mana regeneration rate would drop. After the disk reaches the speed of light, it'd be impossible to convert any more aether into that kind of energy through that spell (even if there's more aether), just like you can't inspire anymore when your lungs are full even if there's more air (on with that analogy, compare to breathing so much that you absorb all air in your room - windows would probably break, letting more air come in, due to pressure difference).

I found this question very interesting, thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:41 pm 
Avisaru
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Eandil wrote:
Let me introduce a new term: magical energicity. Magical energicity is the maximum amount of energy produced per aetherial consumed. That is, a spell is very energetic when it produces a lot of energy with a given amount of one class of aether. It's measured in aetherial per joule in the SI, ae/J. For example, if a spell has an energicity of 2 ae/J, that means theoretically you produce 2 joules of energy with 1 aetherial of whatever class and family the spell uses.


I like your approach! Not often you get to see an SI treatment of magic. However, shouldn't it be joules per aetherial, J/ae ?

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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:44 am 
Niš
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"I don't really understand any of this...this...babbling you've been doing." Masoki said, biting her lip. Pal-Min looked up from the pile of stones he was constructing and replied sardonically. "I wasn't doing all of this so you'd understand. No, that would be too much to ask indeed. I'm doing this to fill you with the fear of my majesty, and thus to ensure that you do everything I tell you to do, at every possible juncture." He then bent back down to his task. Masoki frowned, and one could almost hear the mental gears clanking away, she then replied. "Oh. I see. That was an insult, then. It's not really fun if I can't understand it, is it?"

Pal-Min stood up, and drew forth his wand from his belt. "If I ever did things for fun, you'd be the first to know, Masoki." He replied airily. He assumed the initial pose for a basic levitation spell. Clearing his mind, he focused on what he wanted to achieve, namely, the lifting of the pile of stones. He monitored his breathing, and allowed himself to be immersed is the fuzzy, dim warmth of magic that emanated from everything. He than began the form, smoothly moving through the stances, wand work pristine, a dull hum came forth from the wand, and a dim reddish light sprang from the tip. He focused still on his breathing and intoned: "Satomenguya mo Satolinaya!" and at that moment completed the last stance, and final flourish of the wand. A yellowish light flared up, and the air seemed to ripple, flowing from the wand to the pile of stones. The stones began to levitate a foot or so off the ground, a dim halo of blue surrounding them.

"Wow." Said Masoki. "I can see that wizard battles must be very slow ordeals indeed." Pal-Min opened his mouth, about to reply when there was a muted bang, and suddenly the stones exploded into a swarm of orange-glowing butterflies with iridescent pink wings. The swarm flitted about in an ever growing spiral, and soon was out of sight. Gui-Lai walked over, putting her wand back in her belt. "Magic is only as slow as the user desires. My brother is a rank incompetent." She landed a fairly painful kick on the backside of Pal-Min who howled in pain. Masoki nodded sagely. "I see. The next time I engage a wizard in battle, I'll just throw some rocks at him until he gives up in crushing defeat." Gui-Lai stared at Masoki blankly. "You do that, then."


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:32 pm 
Smeric
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the duke of nuke wrote:
Eandil wrote:
Let me introduce a new term: magical energicity. Magical energicity is the maximum amount of energy produced per aetherial consumed. That is, a spell is very energetic when it produces a lot of energy with a given amount of one class of aether. It's measured in aetherial per joule in the SI, ae/J. For example, if a spell has an energicity of 2 ae/J, that means theoretically you produce 2 joules of energy with 1 aetherial of whatever class and family the spell uses.


I like your approach! Not often you get to see an SI treatment of magic. However, shouldn't it be joules per aetherial, J/ae ?


Yes, exactly. Fixed now, thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:36 pm 
Smeric
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Mundi.Tristissimis wrote:
"I don't really understand any of this...this...babbling you've been doing." Masoki said, biting her lip. [...]

I like the narration and style. Is that "Satomenguya mo Satolinaya!" in any conlang, by the way?


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:22 am 
Smeric
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Elemental magic: Aqua

Aqua is the Latin word for water, and also the root underlying the word aqueous. Nevertheless, this magic usually employs frozen water, not liquid water. Producing liquid water is usually harder, since it requires more energy to be employed in temperature (related to internal kinetic energy).

Frost magic (aqua, magia aquosa; also: gelus, magia gelida, glacies, magia glacialis) is magic which uses aqueous aether as the source of aether. It's a highly energetic magic, because it also involves mass-creation; however, since temperatures are usually lower, it's less energetic than igneous aether. Frost magic is studied by gelomancy. One who studies gelomancy is a gelomancer, and is usually a wizard who specializes on frost as well.

Aqueous aether constitutes a class which is generally homogeneous. Frost spells involve the creation of H2O molecules, and also giving them a minimal temperature. After summoning ice, one might heat it until it is water (some spells may involve hot water, geiser-like ones), and of course moving it so that it reaches your target. Gelomancers need to be careful with physical temperature. Continuated exposure to cold may lead to hypothermia, specially after the use of defensive spells like ice block or ice barrier.

Frost magic is hard to master, specially because of this, many people feel too weak to handle it. You need to be literally cold-blooded. However, it's also very effective, it numbs both your opponents' minds and bodies. They'll get physically and mentally weaker. It's not as destructive as fire magic, but freezing something and cracking it will for sure destroy it as well. Mages which are good on fire magic are usually worse in frost magic and viceversa, because of soul temperature. Soul temperature is just the way of talking about magical specialization in the fire/frost dichotomy. It's qualitative, that a person is magically hot or magically cold just means they're best talented for fire of frost magic. However, there are special occasions when fire and frost magic can be combined. Frost magic is good at weakening the soul, but it also has visible effects on the body, just as cold does. Like fire magic, it's generally amoral.

An enviroment favorable for frost magic includes the presence of a cold atmosphere, nearby water (the colder, the better for cold frost spells; but a geiser is better if you want a geiser spell) - rivers, seas, etc. Rainy (snowy) and cloudy days are good for frost magic, just like (-) things. This is the reason the Sun opposes frost magic. It usually prevents frost mages from focusing on their "cold mood", necessary for good frost spellcasting. Night is better, just like (-) magics like wind or shadow magic, female casters, etc. At midnight, specially during cold winter nights, frost magic reaches its maximum effect.

Something new: how exactly do fire and frost (and generally, other opposite magics) combine without annihilating? Sometimes, specially-talented mages known as elemental mages, cast something called elemental magic, which refers to magic with combined effects of frost and fire magic. It's occasionally called frostfire magic. When this is done, two aetherials, one aqueous aetherial and one igneous aetherial, are put together by one binding aetherial, which prevents them from annihilating. The binding aetherial is usually raw arcane aetherial. This aether expresses as it is obvious, with combined qualities of the underlying combined aethers. It's like "burning water". However, this kind of magic is really rare and it's not well understood. Most elemental mages soon incline for either frost or fire, breaking their balance, and specializing on either.

Frost magic is quite beautiful. Usually the creation of water happens in the form of spheres or globular shapes between your hands, you can touch them and it's like bubbles just that they're filled with water (it doesn't fall down, since it's under your control). Then, unless you make it liquid, it goes cold and freezes as the casting is being completed. For example, one of the most common frost spells (frostbolt) consists in this plus throwing this ball towards your enemy. It then impacts on him or her, breaking into a lot of tiny crystalline pieces of ice. Other frost spells, like ice lance, can act like knives, hurting your enemies by cutting them laterally as they pass.

Frost spells are also generally direct damage spells. Their effects over time usually include those of cold: slower movement, slower thinking, slower casting, etc; but not more damage, which is merely that of the impact. There are also frost defensive magics (fire shields), and general shields (in which ice physically blocks real objects).

Frost spells meeting equal amounts of aetherials in the shape of fire spells annihilate and leave the physical plane, liberating a lot of aether into the surrounding magical field.

Oh, and casting frost magic gets your hands cold too. Wear gloves.


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:58 pm 
Avisaru
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OK, that sounds like a very complex justification of World of Warcraft's frost mage, which probably occurs because a bolt of frost is so much more fun in a video game than magic manipulating liquid water :P

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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:55 pm 
Smeric
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Ollock wrote:
OK, that sounds like a very complex justification of World of Warcraft's frost mage, which probably occurs because a bolt of frost is so much more fun in a video game than magic manipulating liquid water :P


:wink: well, actually, you could call it frost ball. I used wow's names because I'm more familiar with them. There are a lot of potential spells I'm not describing, and surely many involve manipulation of liquid water which is pretty much unexistent on wow. Do you play?

But anyway, think about it. In a fantasy-oriented framework (much wider than wow) where you generally use magic for fighting enemies, would you rather throw them a frozen ball or splash them with 25ºC water...?


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:36 pm 
Niš
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Eandil wrote:
Mundi.Tristissimis wrote:
"I don't really understand any of this...this...babbling you've been doing." Masoki said, biting her lip. [...]

I like the narration and style. Is that "Satomenguya mo Satolinaya!" in any conlang, by the way?


Yeah, it's my latest attempt at a magical language that is more like math or logic and less like a naturalistic language. Needless to say, I'm very picky when it comes to magic systems, and so mine has to be the most badass or it fails. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:41 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

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Eandil wrote:
Ollock wrote:
OK, that sounds like a very complex justification of World of Warcraft's frost mage, which probably occurs because a bolt of frost is so much more fun in a video game than magic manipulating liquid water :P


:wink: well, actually, you could call it frost ball. I used wow's names because I'm more familiar with them. There are a lot of potential spells I'm not describing, and surely many involve manipulation of liquid water which is pretty much unexistent on wow. Do you play?


I used to play. And there is water magic -- frost mages have water elemental pets as well as create water from thin air, and Shamans and Druids have a few water-based abilities (mostly flavor added to healing spells for shaman).

Quote:
But anyway, think about it. In a fantasy-oriented framework (much wider than wow) where you generally use magic for fighting enemies, would you rather throw them a frozen ball or splash them with 25ºC water...?


I'd rather summon a tidal wave that could take out an entire army. Or a massive thunderstorm that makes their route impassable.

But that's just the kind of magic that I like -- manipulation of the existing world, often in ways that could be interpreted as coincidental. I didn't mean to make out your system to be bad or wrong -- it's very well thought out. I just thought it was funny that it basically has similar implications to a Warcraft mage.

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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:47 pm 
Niš
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Eandil wrote:
Elemental magic: Aqua

Aqua is the Latin word for water, and also the root underlying the word aqueous. Nevertheless, this magic usually employs frozen water, not liquid water. Producing liquid water is usually harder, since it requires more energy to be employed in temperature (related to internal kinetic energy).

Frost magic (aqua, magia aquosa; also: gelus, magia gelida, glacies, magia glacialis) is magic which uses aqueous aether as the source of aether. It's a highly energetic magic, because it also involves mass-creation; however, since temperatures are usually lower, it's less energetic than igneous aether. Frost magic is studied by gelomancy. One who studies gelomancy is a gelomancer, and is usually a wizard who specializes on frost as well.


Am I the only one who likes the idea of using Latin as the basis of a magical language? I know that IRL it's a liturgical and academic language, and that in Latin's own heydey Egyptian hieroglyphs (or was it the demotic script???) were supposed to be the magical badass language. BTW, I was not a big fan of the way Rowling did it. Too much dog and not enough Latin. I mean, c'mon! If you're pissed at someone, what better way to destroy them than by whipping out your wand (or staff, or Ring of Power, or iPhone) and declaring: "Saxicon Conflictans Hombron!" And need to fix an annoying broken arm, why just say: "Osson Cura" (or Oscura/Os-cura...I like Oscura, nice and compact). And if you need me to shut up, just say: "Desloquans!".

Now I know as conlangers, we all want to maybe make our own magic languages. But I just can't help for whatever reason to want to hire Latin, or more likely, a Latin based conlang to do the job. And, as I'm a bit of a jackass, what better way to fuck with peoples' minds than to place a Latin based language on an entirely different planet in a different galaxy, or even in a different reality. And then never explain why. Sort of an evil bitchslap for anyone who'd care to observe, which probably wouldn't be many people.


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:21 pm 
Smeric
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Ollock wrote:
I used to play. And there is water magic -- frost mages have water elemental pets as well as create water from thin air, and Shamans and Druids have a few water-based abilities (mostly flavor added to healing spells for shaman).


Yea, that's true. But I believe water-themed "heals" were more like mana regeneration, and that real healing spells were just nature-based. Or are there genuine water healing spells?

Ollock wrote:
I'd rather summon a tidal wave that could take out an entire army. Or a massive thunderstorm that makes their route impassable.


haha, if you're Neptulon or a God maybe. The rest of mortals can't but dream about that power :P.

Ollock wrote:
But that's just the kind of magic that I like -- manipulation of the existing world, often in ways that could be interpreted as coincidental. I didn't mean to make out your system to be bad or wrong -- it's very well thought out. I just thought it was funny that it basically has similar implications to a Warcraft mage.


Thank you. I actually like criticism, and in fact I also like the magic you described (like controling weather, maybe eclipses, etc.). It's cool.

Mundi.Tristissimis wrote:
Am I the only one who likes the idea of using Latin as the basis of a magical language? I know that IRL it's a liturgical and academic language, and that in Latin's own heydey Egyptian hieroglyphs (or was it the demotic script???) were supposed to be the magical badass language. BTW, I was not a big fan of the way Rowling did it. Too much dog and not enough Latin. I mean, c'mon! If you're pissed at someone, what better way to destroy them than by whipping out your wand (or staff, or Ring of Power, or iPhone) and declaring: "Saxicon Conflictans Hombron!" And need to fix an annoying broken arm, why just say: "Osson Cura" (or Oscura/Os-cura...I like Oscura, nice and compact). And if you need me to shut up, just say: "Desloquans!".

Now I know as conlangers, we all want to maybe make our own magic languages. But I just can't help for whatever reason to want to hire Latin, or more likely, a Latin based conlang to do the job. And, as I'm a bit of a jackass, what better way to fuck with peoples' minds than to place a Latin based language on an entirely different planet in a different galaxy, or even in a different reality. And then never explain why. Sort of an evil bitchslap for anyone who'd care to observe, which probably wouldn't be many people.


No, you're not the only one :P. I have a conlang which takes its vocabulary from Latin, but it has a completely different feel to it. I doubted between using it or Latin for magical names, but in the end I chose Latin because we can relate it to the academic/prestigious feel that scientific international names have; and it's also more recognizable. And of course, I also like its aesthetics and its usage in fantasy. I also prefer real Latin over pig Latin - it's not hard to find something good-sounding which is authentic.


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:39 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:04 pm
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Eandil wrote:
Ollock wrote:
I used to play. And there is water magic -- frost mages have water elemental pets as well as create water from thin air, and Shamans and Druids have a few water-based abilities (mostly flavor added to healing spells for shaman).


Yea, that's true. But I believe water-themed "heals" were more like mana regeneration, and that real healing spells were just nature-based. Or are there genuine water healing spells?


The Shaman spell Healing Rain has a particle graphic that looks like falling rain, so I suppose it's meant that there is actually rain falling on the party. Other than that, it seems more that the Shaman calls on the element of water for healing in some more abstract/spiritual way.

Quote:
Ollock wrote:
I'd rather summon a tidal wave that could take out an entire army. Or a massive thunderstorm that makes their route impassable.


haha, if you're Neptulon or a God maybe. The rest of mortals can't but dream about that power :P.


Depends on your conworld, I guess. In some systems a human can do that through enough years of study/sacrifices/meditation/etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:34 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

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Location: Spain
Ollock wrote:
The Shaman spell Healing Rain has a particle graphic that looks like falling rain, so I suppose it's meant that there is actually rain falling on the party. Other than that, it seems more that the Shaman calls on the element of water for healing in some more abstract/spiritual way.

Oh, interesting. I'll also develop a metaphysical explanation for that ;).

Ollock wrote:
Depends on your conworld, I guess. In some systems a human can do that through enough years of study/sacrifices/meditation/etc.

Yea most likely.


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:18 pm 
Sanci
Sanci

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Eandil, I find your scientific approach to magic interesting. I like your conceptualization of using magic like playing music, and creating spells like composing music. I have a few questions.

1) How do amulets increase spell power if magic functions via consciousness?

2) What/who determines whether intent is good or il? Is there such a thing as neutral intent?

3) You say there's a wide variety of types of inert aether spread all over the world, constantly interacting, like reactive gasses in our world. In our world, reactive gasses will eventually stop reacting, reach equilibrium and homogenize (otherwise, you'd have free/unlimited energy). What prevents this from occuring in the aether?

4) You say you can't turn all of your mana pool into energy, just a portion of it. Why?

5) You define evil as "who seeks chaos," and presumably good as "who seeks order." You're creating this magic system outside any specific conworld, but if chaos is evil and order is good, that implies something for the conworld; a lack of entropy. Have you thought about this?

6) Could I use water magic to a) create water inside someone's lungs or b) violently force all water out of a person's body?

7) I don't understand why fire and water are considered "pure elements" and wind and earth "natural." Can you try to explain the difference between "pure" and "natural?"

8) How do males and females have "signs" and why are they + and - respectively?

9) If fire magic is easy, is it used technologically, to heat homes and power steam engines?


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 Post subject: Re: Theory of Magic
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:43 am 
Smeric
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Observer wrote:
Eandil, I find your scientific approach to magic interesting. I like your conceptualization of using magic like playing music, and creating spells like composing music. I have a few questions.

Thank you! I'll try to respond to all of them. They're really interesting.

Observer wrote:
1) How do amulets increase spell power if magic functions via consciousness?

Let's see, magic functions via consciousness, but in a specific way: to cast a spell, a particular mental state is required, which implies a particular brain state (physical brain state). Obviously you do not learn every neuronal connexion and apply it, but rather memorize a particular sensation, sound, image, words... etc. that provokes the mental state or its closest approximation. This is why inventing spells is so difficult; magicians just learn all or most of their spells.

Some situations (for example, the Sun or daylight with fire magic) help the magician approach the optimal mind state to cast the spell. However, not only situations; the same goes for objects (usually enchanted magical objects, which may help achieve the mind state in a more abstract way, like altering your soul directly, because the mind is to the soul like the brain to the body). So everything that helps you focus in your magic operates improving your mind states, which consequently also increases your ability to cast more powerful magic at a given time: it increases your potestas (spell power).

Observer wrote:
2) What/who determines whether intent is good or il? Is there such a thing as neutral intent?

Broadly defined, intent is the motivation to do something. On the framework I've defined, however, every action with intent is to some point moral, be it as irrelevant as you wish. Good intent seeks moral goodness, angelic ways; ill intent seeks moral detriment, demonic ways. Only non-sentient beings which don't have intent are amoral. If you talk about intent, you talk about conscious intelligent motivation, which is moral by definition, so there's no really neutral intent. If you kick a rock, for example, you can't talk properly about intent because you're not really following a "conscious intelligent motivation", it's probably more whimsical or capricious (or even accidental), an so you can say it's an amoral action.

In the framework which I have in mind for the magic, which even if not in a particular conworld has some definite properties, good and evil are absolute and separate from human biology. They're properties inherent to the universe, which remain true even if there is no life. This is pretty much unrelated to the magic, but I can answer as well if you like. The physical universe tends to maximum entropy or chaos, while consciousness has the property to create order against this tendency. Sentient beings are divided between those who seek order and those who seek chaos, which is why they are good or evil. These are just names. There's nothing you can say to a demon to convince him good is "better" than evil. He just loathes "good" because, for him, chaos or evil is the ultimate goal.

Observer wrote:
3) You say there's a wide variety of types of inert aether spread all over the world, constantly interacting, like reactive gasses in our world. In our world, reactive gasses will eventually stop reacting, reach equilibrium and homogenize (otherwise, you'd have free/unlimited energy). What prevents this from occuring in the aether?

That our atmosphere is a closed system, but the ""aethersphere"" isn't: it's constantly being drained by magicians, and at the same rate, ethereal beings with no body do the opposite, they convert energy into several types of aether. It's cyclical, and conserves motion and heterogeneity.

Observer wrote:
4) You say you can't turn all of your mana pool into energy, just a portion of it. Why?

It's a biological limitation (not a physical one, more like a spiritual one). You can cast spells, or the same spell multiple times, until you are out of mana, but what you cannot do is use all of your mana in one spell to achieve an incredible amount of energy. This happens because of two reasons: firstly, the spell has its own maximum (it has one definite effect and not another, or it would be a different spell); and secondly, you do. Normally you can't achieve this maximum effect described because you require training, to become more powerful. If you have enough spell power, however, you can cast the spell at its maximum.

Observer wrote:
5) You define evil as "who seeks chaos," and presumably good as "who seeks order." You're creating this magic system outside any specific conworld, but if chaos is evil and order is good, that implies something for the conworld; a lack of entropy. Have you thought about this?


Why? I know the physical universe tends towards entropy, but reality is dual here: the spiritual world, whose main property is consciousness, contains sentient minds with the ability for both, seek chaos or order. One thing is what the physical universe does and a different things is what sentient beings do.

That order is the good thing doesn't imply it's "what nature prefers". Nature is indifferent, both are in constant fight and they can win at different times. It's not a "good boys must win". In fact, gods exist, and they're morally capable of both good and evil, with generally no real rational preference. (angelic is not related to godly - note how I avoid the adjective "divine", because of its positive connotations).

Observer wrote:
6) Could I use water magic to a) create water inside someone's lungs or b) violently force all water out of a person's body?


If you discover the mind state which causes those spells, then sure, why not. Invoking water in a specific part of someone's body should be an easy task. Manipulating already-existent water, in the microscopic level, would be much harder.

Observer wrote:
7) I don't understand why fire and water are considered "pure elements" and wind and earth "natural." Can you try to explain the difference between "pure" and "natural?"


Elemental magic describes the elements of the world. Then you can break it into natural magic (nature, wind, earth) and elemental magic (fire, water). Since I consider earth and wind parts of natural magic (here take natural as biological, or relating to life, mainly), the other elements are called pure just for the sake of distinction (and that they're less related to life). But however, I'm aware wind doesn't have much to do with life and water is probably quite important. In this sense, I should probably explain it better because of the relationship between their aethers, take I speak about the types of magic merely. Why wind magic has more in common with natural magic than water magic is something probably related to the mind states, and not easily explainable.

Observer wrote:
8) How do males and females have "signs" and why are they + and - respectively?

Again, like chaos and order, these are properties inherent to the universe. The individual assignment of signs is not important, just the contrast and the relationships between same-sign and opposite-sign (for example think of why in our own universe we have electrical charges + and -).

As for males and females, well, don't take it too seriously, but the reason is that males seem to be slightly better at positively-charged magics (fire, earth, holy) and women at negatively-charged magics (frost, wind, shadow). Since the inherent sexual dimorphism in the human species makes us have slightly different brains, we can expect a slight difference in how mental states adequate for spells are reached.

Observer wrote:
9) If fire magic is easy, is it used technologically, to heat homes and power steam engines?

Easy among wizards, but to handle them you have to have some education in magic. And magic is not easy.

To answer this, I'd need to have a particular conworld in mind, but I don't. I guess it depends on what wizards are in a particular society. I haven't really thought about using magic for technology, because that's not a topic which interests me much, but I guess you can use a good fire spell to light a fireplace :wink: .


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