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 Post subject: Dhekhnami questions
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:50 pm 
Smeric
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I thought I would start a new thread for these. I wasn't sure if there was a better place for them to go.

It's not spelled out explicitly, but based on the examples I assume that plurality is compulsory in Dhekhnami (and Munkhashi), so a phrase like techêdhnadzu kash is the only acceptable form (just like ďin icëlani in Verdurian) and a phrase like **chêdhnadzu kash would be incorrect.

This makes me think that example sentence: Ghimbaban gebubakh techêdhnadzu the icëlan may have escaped has some errors. Either the noun should be singular, like the gloss, or the verbs should be plural. I'm not sure what the plural forms are: gepubakhu for the second verb maybe (I think the voicing on the p is wrong?). But there might be an error in the lexicon for “escape”: çimpits is what is listed for “escape” but there are two example sentences that use a verb for “escape” and it's not that verb in either of them. Maybe it got confused with çimpan “throw away” but there is still a voiced consonant in there that I can't work out. Out of date sound change maybe? As a side issue, did the verbal plural in Dhekhnami evolve from the dual, or the plural, or both?

I think din = dzan shideh is a typo for dzan shidhe.

In the first example text, demadôf penath dhnala roromat bigo is inconsistent with the gloss. I think it should be demathôf penath dhnala Gelat wiwigo. I'm not sure if it's an inclusive or exclusive “we” however, or if just “me” can stand in for “we” in that context.

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 Post subject: Re: Dhekhnami questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:15 pm 
Smeric
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Po zombeth ghyiruth pwashino?

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 Post subject: Re: Dhekhnami questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:30 pm 
Boardlord
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It's not easy to get back in the Dhekhnami mindset. :)

So Haleza Grise wrote:
It's not spelled out explicitly, but based on the examples I assume that plurality is compulsory in Dhekhnami (and Munkhashi),


Yeah, it is.

Quote:
This makes me think that example sentence: Ghimbaban gebubakh techêdhnadzu the icëlan may have escaped has some errors. Either the noun should be singular, like the gloss, or the verbs should be plural. I'm not sure what the plural forms are: gepubakhu for the second verb maybe (I think the voicing on the p is wrong?). But there might be an error in the lexicon for “escape”: çimpits is what is listed for “escape” but there are two example sentences that use a verb for “escape” and it's not that verb in either of them.


I made the noun singular. You're right that the verbs were wrong. Now corrected to use çimpits. :P

Quote:
As a side issue, did the verbal plural in Dhekhnami evolve from the dual, or the plural, or both?


From the plural.

Quote:
I think din = dzan shideh is a typo for dzan shidhe.

Yep.

Quote:
In the first example text, demadôf penath dhnala roromat bigo is inconsistent with the gloss. I think it should be demathôf penath dhnala Gelat wiwigo. I'm not sure if it's an inclusive or exclusive “we” however, or if just “me” can stand in for “we” in that context.


I changed it to 'the gods' to match the liturgy.

“Bigo” is a retention from Munkhâshi. (I've added a note to this effect in the liturgy translation.)


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 Post subject: Re: Dhekhnami questions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:43 pm 
Sanci
Sanci

Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:10 am
Posts: 73
What are the Dhekhnami sound changes? I couldn't find them on the language page, and I do like being able to follow how a descendant emerges from the parent language.


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 Post subject: Re: Dhekhnami questions
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:17 pm 
Boardlord
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Posts: 10302
Location: In the den
Here is the original sc file. Sorry about the weird characters; this was pre-Unicode. The rewrite rules tell what they mean.

C=ptçkf†ßxbdjgv∂Ωmnñlryszwc≈3¬
G=bdjgv∂Ωmnñ≈
P=pbmfv
V=aeiouâêô
I=iuy
E=ieê
S=ptçkbdjgnm
Z=bdjgbdjgnm
W=f†ßxv∂Ω≈nm
N=nm
T=tdkg
D=ßΩx≈
A=âêeu
Â=êeio
* rewrite rules
ch/ç/_
th/†/_
dh/∂/_
lh/¬/_
sh/ß/_
zh/Ω/_
kh/x/_
ts/c/_
* the meat
t/tç/_r
tl/tç/#_
d/dΩ/_r
S/Z/V_r
S/Z/V_l
S/Z/#_w
l/w/_C
l/w/_#
p/w/ß_
r/w/P_
r/b/m_
r/y/C_
m/w/VS_
m/b/_n
d/r/V_V
S/W/V_S
S/W/V_#
T/D/_I
S/Z/V_V
t/dâ/#_N
k/gâ/#_N
p/bâ/#_N
n/nâ/#_T
x/3/E_
x/3/_E
¬/tl/#_
¬/tl/V_V
¬/t/_#
¬/t/_C
¬/l/_
S/Z/_G
dz/z/#_
j/dz/#_
c/s/#_
ç/c/#_
t//_ç
tß/ç/#_
dß/j/#_
dΩ/j/#_
* vowel raising before nasals
A/Â/_N
u/o/_r
ô/o/_w
ê/o/_w
â/a/_
u/o/_kC
u/o/_gC
a/ô/_gC
a/ô/_kC
u/o/w_
uw/o/_C
ê/e/_#
ô/o/_#
e/ê/_CC
o/ô/_CC
ê/e/_CV
ô/o/_CV
r/y/_C
* spelling rules
c/ts/_
ç/ch/_
†/th/_
∂/dh/_
x/kh/_
ß/sh/_
Ω/zh/_
≈/gh/_
3/ç/_


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 Post subject: Re: Dhekhnami questions
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 8:59 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:37 pm
Posts: 233
Location: Idaho, USA
zompist wrote:
Quote:
In the first example text, demadôf penath dhnala roromat bigo is inconsistent with the gloss. I think it should be demathôf penath dhnala Gelat wiwigo. I'm not sure if it's an inclusive or exclusive “we” however, or if just “me” can stand in for “we” in that context.


I changed it to 'the gods' to match the liturgy.

“Bigo” is a retention from Munkhâshi. (I've added a note to this effect in the liturgy translation.)

Speaking of the pronouns...

I'd be curious to know how "khuba" and "kebá" entered Dhekhnami from Carhinnian. Was it Dhekhnami pushing around Carhinnians, or the reverse?

It appeared a bit unnatural to me, but then I somehow found that the Filipino Spanish creole Chavacano has an eerily similar pronoun system. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chavacano#Pronouns, the Zamboangueño version). So at this point, based on the example of Chavacano, I'm hypothesizing that it was Dhekhnamis pushing around Carhinnians and other lowly people adopting the Carhinnian pronouns because they had a certain cachet, they having been formidable horsemen and all.


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 Post subject: Re: Dhekhnami questions
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:25 pm 
Boardlord
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Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Posts: 10302
Location: In the den
The borrowings date back to when the Carhinnians were in control.

It's likely that they were high-status pronouns at the time. In a hierarchical system, pronouns can demote over time and new ones need to be innovated for the higher slots.


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